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26 minutes ago, leftycabe said:

 

I'm not an engineer but as I understand it, the deeper face is used for the sole purpose of raising the center of gravity and lowering spin. That's why you see the better player's version of driver is almost always the deeper faced driver. Callaway's sub zero models are always deeper faced. The TSi3 is deeper faced than the TSi2. The same holds true for fairways woods. That's why the more shallow and stretched the wood is, the lower and further back the center of gravity is. Again, I could be completely wrong but that's my understanding. 

 

Sorry for taking away from the thread. Back to the SIM 2.0. Bring me a deep head and keep the same color scheme! Thanks!

Deep face brings cg foward and up. Whether not that means more spin depends on a of things-from what i understand, there will be more real estate on the face above the cg line, so if struck there it will bring spin down. Low in the face the shallow head with lower and back cg will spin much less than the deep face. Shallow head will be more consistent with vertical strike patterns where the deep face may offer more overall less spin but be much more varied in the vertical strike pattern. 

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On 10/22/2020 at 6:46 PM, Red4282 said:

I think one area where a few manufacturers have found extra speed is moving the cog as far out in the toe as they can. Ping and TM are two that come to mind. Since the toe is the fastest moving part of the club, sometimes several miles an hour faster, having the cog out there offers more potential. The Downside (or upside-depending on the golfer) is very fade biased driver.

Solid observation. I have always preferred to dial loft down in order to open the face, but that’s not necessary with the sim or g410lst.  

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On 10/23/2020 at 11:37 AM, leftycabe said:

 

I'm not an engineer but as I understand it, the deeper face is used for the sole purpose of raising the center of gravity and lowering spin. That's why you see the better player's version of driver is almost always the deeper faced driver. Callaway's sub zero models are always deeper faced. The TSi3 is deeper faced than the TSi2. The same holds true for fairways woods. That's why the more shallow and stretched the wood is, the lower and further back the center of gravity is. Again, I could be completely wrong but that's my understanding. 

 

Sorry for taking away from the thread. Back to the SIM 2.0. Bring me a deep head and keep the same color scheme! Thanks!

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:17 PM, Red4282 said:

Deep face brings cg foward and up. Whether not that means more spin depends on a of things-from what i understand, there will be more real estate on the face above the cg line, so if struck there it will bring spin down. Low in the face the shallow head with lower and back cg will spin much less than the deep face. Shallow head will be more consistent with vertical strike patterns where the deep face may offer more overall less spin but be much more varied in the vertical strike pattern. 


Red is correct in that a taller face will almost always bring CG forward and up, which will increase spin on average for most people and is why elements of that type of design are falling out of style a bit (also why virtually no driver that fits that high/forward CG design has ever stuck around long). I would argue that the "better player's version" of a given driver model has become a bit obsolete and has since switched a bit. With the SIM line, the shallowest face (SIM Standard) is considered to be the "better player's model" and the deepest face is the most "weekend golfer" model in the SIM MAX D. Also, previous versions of the "player's" model saw consistently less representation on tour. The M5 Tour, M3 440, M1 440, and M1 430 were all less popular than their 460 counterparts and really started highlighting the shift away from the smaller, deeper faced driver. That is just Taylormade however, and I think PING has been more successful with their LST versions in this regard, but the trend has still been moving towards pushing CG further and further back while often saving the big shift down for a new product line. SLDR -> M-Series and then each subsequent M-series release followed this pattern, as did the M-Series -> SIM transition. Titleist did it big time with the 917 -> TS and PING made a big move from G -> G400, particularly with the 400 MAX. 

It is all interesting stuff to follow because the shifts in CG both up/down and forward/back are really what mark the noticeable performance changes, while the little interim tech bits (Twist Face, SurefitCG, Flash Face, Geocoustic, Speed Injection, Infinity/Milled Face, Dragonfly Technology, different types of weight adjustment etc...) serve to fill the gaps between these big shifts. Keeping track of this pattern is useful from a consumer standpoint too if you're someone that really only wants to change drivers when those big shifts happen, and not when the small iterations are being tinkered with in between. 

Edited by Valtiel
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39 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 


Red is correct in that a taller face will almost always bring CG forward and up, which will increase spin on average for most people and is why elements of that type of design are falling out of style a bit (also why virtually no driver that fits that high/forward CG design has ever stuck around long). I would argue that the "better player's version" of a given driver model has become a bit obsolete and has since switched a bit. With the SIM line, the shallowest face (SIM Standard) is considered to be the "better player's model" and the deepest face is the most "weekend golfer" model in the SIM MAX D. Also, previous versions of the "player's" model saw consistently less representation on tour. The M5 Tour, M3 440, M1 440, and M1 430 were all less popular than their 460 counterparts and really started highlighting the shift away from the smaller, deeper faced driver. That is just Taylormade however, and I think PING has been more successful with their LST versions in this regard, but the trend has still been moving towards pushing CG further and further back while often saving the big shift down for a new product line. SLDR -> M-Series and then each subsequent M-series release followed this pattern, as did the M-Series -> SIM transition. Titleist did it big time with the 917 -> TS and PING made a big move from G -> G400, particularly with the 400 MAX. 

It is all interesting stuff to follow because the shifts in CG both up/down and forward/back are really what mark the noticeable performance changes, while the little interim tech bits (Twist Face, SurefitCG, Flash Face, Geocoustic, Speed Injection, Infinity/Milled Face, Dragonfly Technology, different types of weight adjustment etc...) serve to fill the gaps between these big shifts. Keeping track of this pattern is useful from a consumer standpoint too if you're someone that really only wants to change drivers when those big shifts happen, and not when the small iterations are being tinkered with in between. 

Great post and content. I do think generally someone with a very positive AOA generally likes the deep face drivers. They want to tee it up and hit up. Neutral or negative angle of attack will probably be better off or gravitate towards a little shallower head and tee it a touch lower. Obviously there are exceptions, as rory is very positive and is playing the SIM. One thing that pleasantly surprised me about the SIM was just how low spin it is low on the face. Typically other drivers tend to balloon for me when struck there, 3500+spin. For SIM, i rarely see anything over 2700. Im very neutral and do prefer teeing it down a notch, just mainly because of all the wind we deal with here. The SIM has been a perfect match for me in all phases.

Edited by Red4282
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1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

 


Red is correct in that a taller face will almost always bring CG forward and up, which will increase spin on average for most people and is why elements of that type of design are falling out of style a bit (also why virtually no driver that fits that high/forward CG design has ever stuck around long). I would argue that the "better player's version" of a given driver model has become a bit obsolete and has since switched a bit. With the SIM line, the shallowest face (SIM Standard) is considered to be the "better player's model" and the deepest face is the most "weekend golfer" model in the SIM MAX D. Also, previous versions of the "player's" model saw consistently less representation on tour. The M5 Tour, M3 440, M1 440, and M1 430 were all less popular than their 460 counterparts and really started highlighting the shift away from the smaller, deeper faced driver. That is just Taylormade however, and I think PING has been more successful with their LST versions in this regard, but the trend has still been moving towards pushing CG further and further back while often saving the big shift down for a new product line. SLDR -> M-Series and then each subsequent M-series release followed this pattern, as did the M-Series -> SIM transition. Titleist did it big time with the 917 -> TS and PING made a big move from G -> G400, particularly with the 400 MAX. 

It is all interesting stuff to follow because the shifts in CG both up/down and forward/back are really what mark the noticeable performance changes, while the little interim tech bits (Twist Face, SurefitCG, Flash Face, Geocoustic, Speed Injection, Infinity/Milled Face, Dragonfly Technology, different types of weight adjustment etc...) serve to fill the gaps between these big shifts. Keeping track of this pattern is useful from a consumer standpoint too if you're someone that really only wants to change drivers when those big shifts happen, and not when the small iterations are being tinkered with in between. 

Impressive. Helpful too! Mad props if you wrote that in under 10 minutes. 🙂  Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Good to clarify CG impact and changes.  

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22 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Great post and content. I do think generally someone with a very positive AOA generally likes the deep face drivers. They want to tee it up and hit up. Neutral or negative angle of attack will probably be better off or gravitate towards a little shallower head and tee it a touch lower. Obviously there are exceptions, as rory is very positive and is playing the SIM. One thing that pleasantly surprised me about the SIM was just how low spin it is low on the face. Typically other drivers tend to balloon for me when struck there, 3500+spin. For SIM, i rarely see anything over 2700. Im very neutral and do prefer teeing it down a notch, just mainly because of all the wind we deal with here. The SIM has been a perfect match for me in all phases.


Thanks! And yeah, I think that definitely depends on the player. I am pretty positive in terms of AoA and I actually just received my SIM as I am finding I prefer shallower faces. There is no getting around that a shallower face will be more consistent in terms of numbers, both speed and spin. With the deeper faces generally pulling CG forward and up, all of that extra face will subject to the ill effects of said CG tendencies, a "worst of both worlds" IMO. The deeper the face and the higher the CG, the more physical face there is below that CG which will yield worse and worse results the deeper it gets. It also just creates such a stark visual shift from fairway woods/hybrids, and I have a tendency to catch deeper faced drivers low with trying to hit up more just because I can not bring myself to tee the ball up into the stratosphere (comparatively) like you have to do with those.

I much prefer the shallower face of the SIM, at least so far in terms of the eye test. I found the same benefits with fairway woods too, particularly in the 3-wood which is a club that I primarily turn over, and thus really need that tight spin window that you get from a shallower face. That TXG test they did with fairway face depth really resonated with what I had found in my own testing, and all the same concepts apply to the driver just as much. 

 

10 minutes ago, Nickthurgood said:

Impressive. Helpful too! Mad props if you wrote that in under 10 minutes. 🙂  Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Good to clarify CG impact and changes.  


Hah thanks! Probably around 15 minutes if i'm honest. 😛

I definitely believe that all the CG "magic" going on under the hood is the foundation of modern driver performance, and was treated as such from a marketing standpoint until guys like Golftec and MG$ started publishing them. Even still, understanding gear effects are key to appreciating what those published numbers even mean, but it really does reveal a lot about why certain drivers were more popular than others, and especially interesting when it comes to cult followings and the odd much older model driver still seeing tour use. 

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27 minutes ago, ASN21 said:

Big focus will be on more forgiveness

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47 minutes ago, ASN21 said:

Big focus will be on more forgiveness

Sounds promising, as long as they don't use the word MAX at all.  

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On 10/27/2020 at 11:42 AM, TaylorMade Golf said:

🤣 Pretty close

 

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loved my sim max woods - the best I've used.

Don't think they can improve in 2021 unless they give us a sim max fairway with a hosel.  Or Come out with a glued 4 wood. 

 

My 15 Deg 3 wood goes too far.

 

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1 hour ago, tigerfan23 said:

loved my sim max woods - the best I've used.

Don't think they can improve in 2021 unless they give us a sim max fairway with a hosel.  Or Come out with a glued 4 wood. 

 

My 15 Deg 3 wood goes too far.

 

Would love to see sim max fairways with an adjustable hosel

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