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Here is my ST190 and a banana. I think we can agree that companies have gone too far...    

15 more yards - this time - for sure!

It makes no sense, lol. SIM might be their best they have ever made. 

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On 10/12/2020 at 12:08 PM, burnsniper said:

I just got fit 2 weeks ago for a SIM at my country club by Taylormade who had a “regional tour van” onsite.  I went from an 8.5 degree 913d2 with an AD DI 6s (fit on a launch monitor ~8 years ago) to a 10.5 degree SIM with AD IZ 7x.  I gained ~ 25 yards on the outdoor trackman and real playing results show I am hitting 2-3 clubs less into par 4s.  The club is also much straighter and more forgiving than the D2.  Total game changer.  Also, it was so awesome that they made the club onsite to my exact specs (wasn’t cheap though lol).

 

Same here.  I was fit at my club (no regional Tour van sadly) for a SIM about a month ago.  I went from a 12* Titleist 915 D2 with AD BB 6S @ 44.75" (total fairway finder, knew I was giving up some yards with it) to a 10.5* SIM with stock Diamana S Limited 60S shaft, at stock length, lofted up in the "higher" setting.  I've seen similar distance gains.  It's taken me a few rounds to get used to the longer shaft and the face looking a little closed (the white coloring near the front of the crown helps there), but I haven't lost much in the way of accuracy and I've picked up distance.   I still plan on getting a Titleist TSi3 when they come out (getting fitted in two weeks) and comparing the two and keeping the one I like better.

 

I've always played Titleist drivers and have been skeptical/rolled my eyes at the whole TM thing, but the SIM is the real deal.  It's a great driver.

Titleist TSi3 10*, Tensei AV Blue Raw 55S

Titleist TS2 16.5*, Diamana LTD S+ Blue 80S

Titleist TS2 21*, Atmos HB Tour Spec Blue 8S
Miura CB 801 4-PW, Recoil Proto 110 F4

Miura 52.06, 56.10, 60.09, Recoil Proto 125 F4
Bettinardi Inovai 6.0 Crescent Neck LH, 34"

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I currently game a SIM Max and it's been an amazing club for me so far.  I made the transition from an M4 which was a bomber but I didn't quite get the ball speed I was hoping for but with the SIM Max it's been successful.  I also notice a little better dispersion on off center hits as well considering I was gaming a ventus black 7x then swapped out the M4 head for the SIM Max which leads me to believe the SIM Max is more forgiving.  For me, even small improvements are huge for me considering that my ball speeds are now 175 mph on average and any slight mis hits can lead to some very errant drives. 

TM SIM MAX 9* w/Ventus Black 7x

TM SIM 15* w/Ventus Blue 8x

TM Tour Issue Deep Face Ghost Proto 2 HB  w/Thump 105x

Vega VDC-01 4-PW w/Recoil Proto 125 F5

54* Miura HB w/KBS 610 S+

58* Miura w/KBS Tour Black

Scotty Cameron Newport 1

Snell MTB-X

 

 

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On 10/11/2020 at 12:08 AM, grm24 said:

Again those videos are for fairway woods and not drivers. The 17/10 was for the RBZ and RBZ2 FAIRWAY woods. I hope you understand what the difference is between a FW and driver. You haven't proved anything regarding driver distance promises. That's because TM and everybody other club manufacturer has never claimed what you did in your initial post regarding driver distance. BTW here is the Callaway heaping pile of manure of 32 more yards for a fairway wood. 

 

Capture.PNG.63de2644b7bf4c6b17affaec10d28c5b.PNG

 

https://www.tgw.com/callaway-mens-x-hot-fairways-p46548--1

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry but you're wrong. TM is the only company that lies in their marketing. I remember hitting my X-hot pro driver 31 yards longer in 2013, and I still hit my X-hot 3 wood at least 32 yards further than my RBZ. 🤣

XTD 10.5* Pro Launch Blue 55X
3 Deep Matrix 8M2
Nike VFP 3 Fuji P95X
T-MB 4, 5 CT130X
6-PW VR Pro CB/MB Raw Combo CT130X
National Custom 53/58 CT130X
PM Grind 64 KBS Tour 130X
Studio Design 1.5 Circle T

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2 hours ago, EHolm said:

Heard they might be releasing two hybrids, one adjustable and one not

This is great news.  Not being able to swap shafts easily and adjust has definitely steered me clear of a few hybrids lately.  

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Titleist TSi3 9.25*  HZRDUS Smoke Green 6.5tx 
Titleist TSi3 5W 18* Tensei AV Raw White- x
Srixon Z 745 (4-pw) KBS tour-x
Mizuno T20 51* 54* 60* TT x-100
Callaway PM Grind 64*
SC Studio Design no. 2
Pro V1

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If them make an adjustable hybrid my 818 might finally get kicked from the bag.  Gamed the '17 M1 Hybrids for a while and really enjoyed them.  The adjustability was great.

TaylorMade SIM 10.5*, HZRDUS Smoke Green 70g 6.5
TaylorMade SIM Max 3W 15*, HZRDUS Smoke Green 70g 6.5
TaylorMade SIM Max 3H 19*, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 85X
Taylormade P770 4-PW, KBS Tour 120 S
Titleist Vokey SM8 50F, 54S, 58M

TaylorMade Spider X
SM 4.5LS 14 Way
 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been a TM driver user literally since the OG Burner(Edit: the orange one) years. Unfortunatly when M5 came out I couldn't look down at the shape. The Tour was actually a worse look than the regular. Coming from M3 440(M1 440, R11s V2, and Superdeep before) I just couldn't do it. While the SIM has some great features(fade biased out of the box) it's just the ugliest club behind the ball of any of this season's offerings. It's sad to miss the days of TM tour only offerings(club ho's will remember those days with frustration).

In my brief time in the industry I actually got on staff with TM and played their irons and wedges but literally turned down the woods to keep the Cally's under generic head covers. The last 2 years I have went EF Sub Zero, EF TD, to Mavrik to Mavrik SZ. Fairways being an assortment of EF and SZ all the way to 2 variations of bonded EF SZ's. With performance almost identical in most the top offerings looks and feel are even more in play and IMO since M3 TM has fallen to the bottom. Here's to hoping a true tour offering with a deep face and less real estate front to back. 

Edited by jds101086
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Im sorry but taylormade drivers feel like a big hunk of heavy metal... when they contact the ball it feels like a severe car crash lol. Im shocked and amazed some of the best golfers in the world chose taylormade for theire clubs and thats just my opinion. At least callaway has a nice feel and in my opinion looks better too. 

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2 hours ago, Valtiel said:


The "true tour offering" with a deep face and shallower front to back has both fallen out of favor on tour and proven to be a less efficient, poorer performer design, both from a spin and ball speed standpoint and from a forgiveness standpoint. In order to continue pushing the boundaries of both forgiveness and spin reduction, faces need to get shallower and weight needs to move back. With current materials, a deep faced, shallower front to back head design would be putting artificial barriers on how weight can be distributed. There have also been a number of rants (that I mostly agree with) about these true "tour only" offerings and how it is often a smack in the face to the consumer. 

I get where you're coming from, but this is basically a position that is one third subjective (aesthetics), one third mostly unpopular from a consumer standpoint (tour only clubs), and one third fallen out of favor from a club design standpoint.

If that's the case why does Cally, Ping, & Titleist all offer deep faced Tour drivers?

The shallow face is simply a modern TM thing.

Taylormade SIM MAX 9 (Set to 8.25U) Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 Stiff Tipped .5"
Taylormade M5 15 set to 14.5 Fujikura Motore Speeder TS 7.3 Stiff Tipped 1"
Bridgestone Tour B 19 Hybrid KBS Proto 85 Stiff
Taylormade M3 3i KBS Tour 105 Stiff
Bridgestone J15CB 5-PW DG AMT S300
Taylormade MG2 52 DGTIS400, MG2TW 56/12 DGTIS400, & Tour Raw Hi Toe 60/09 KBS HiRev 125
Scotty Cameron TeI Newport 2 Longneck 34"
Bridgestone Tour B XS

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17 minutes ago, ignitewvu said:

If that's the case why does Cally, Ping, & Titleist all offer deep faced Tour drivers?

The shallow face is simply a modern TM thing.


They all offer deepER faces than something like the SIM, sure, but I was referring more to the trend of the smaller headed (430/440cc) and super deep faced (older Adams, TM SuperDeep etc) drivers, two things that often existed in the "tour" model Taylormade drivers like the M1 430, M1 440, M3 440, and M5 Tour, all of which saw progressively less and less actual tour play. I also suspect that we may see faces get shallower with other manufacturers in the future. 

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Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
Titleist 915FD 14.25* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade SIM Ti 16* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Titleist 915FD 17.25* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Taylormade GAPR Lo 3 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid || Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Pro Platinum

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1 hour ago, ignitewvu said:

If that's the case why does Cally, Ping, & Titleist all offer deep faced Tour drivers?

The shallow face is simply a modern TM thing.

I wonder how much difference there actually is or if it is a perception thing. That the May look deeper but in reality are not.

 

I have no idea, I have not measured. 

Driver: Taylormade SIM 9 Project X Green 60TX

Fairway Finder: Taylormade Original One 13.5 Ventus Red 9X
Taylormade Gapr low 2 ventus blue 9x
4-PW Cobra king forged CB KBS $ Taper 130 X flex
Wedges 50, 54, 60 Cleveland ZIPCORE
PUTTER; Kronos release long neck
BALL; Bridgestone BX, OR Taylomade TP5x PIX

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12 hours ago, farris207 said:

Any guess for when the Sim will drop in price? That's what I'm really excited for!

I would suspect some time in the next 6 weeks..

Driver: Taylormade SIM 9 Project X Green 60TX

Fairway Finder: Taylormade Original One 13.5 Ventus Red 9X
Taylormade Gapr low 2 ventus blue 9x
4-PW Cobra king forged CB KBS $ Taper 130 X flex
Wedges 50, 54, 60 Cleveland ZIPCORE
PUTTER; Kronos release long neck
BALL; Bridgestone BX, OR Taylomade TP5x PIX

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5 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

I wonder how much difference there actually is or if it is a perception thing. That the May look deeper but in reality are not.

 

I have no idea, I have not measured. 

 

No they are MUCH deeper heads I have measured a few.  TM drivers are by FAR the most shallow of any of the Major Players.  Regular SIM is extremely shallow.

 

For the record, you see what is in my bag!!!  The Max finds fairways & I need fairways cause I'm dealing with a major Trap Muscle issue that has killed 20 Yards off my driver & 10-15 yards per iron.  But, still I prefer deeper faced Drivers.

Edited by ignitewvu

Taylormade SIM MAX 9 (Set to 8.25U) Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 Stiff Tipped .5"
Taylormade M5 15 set to 14.5 Fujikura Motore Speeder TS 7.3 Stiff Tipped 1"
Bridgestone Tour B 19 Hybrid KBS Proto 85 Stiff
Taylormade M3 3i KBS Tour 105 Stiff
Bridgestone J15CB 5-PW DG AMT S300
Taylormade MG2 52 DGTIS400, MG2TW 56/12 DGTIS400, & Tour Raw Hi Toe 60/09 KBS HiRev 125
Scotty Cameron TeI Newport 2 Longneck 34"
Bridgestone Tour B XS

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5 minutes ago, ignitewvu said:

 

No they are MUCH deeper heads I have measured a few.  TM drivers are by FAR the most shallow of any of the Major Players.  Regular SIM is extremely shallow.

 

For the record, you see what is in my bag!!!  The Max finds fairways & I need fairways cause I'm dealing with a major Trap Muscle issue that has killed 20 Yards off my driver & 10-15 yards per iron.  But, still I prefer deeper faced Drivers.

Not sure what is needed for the record... Are you saying I am biased?  I simply said I was not sure they were much deeper. I also said I had not measured. I do like the SIM. it has been a great driver for me. The max is slightly deeper and the Max D deeper still.

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Driver: Taylormade SIM 9 Project X Green 60TX

Fairway Finder: Taylormade Original One 13.5 Ventus Red 9X
Taylormade Gapr low 2 ventus blue 9x
4-PW Cobra king forged CB KBS $ Taper 130 X flex
Wedges 50, 54, 60 Cleveland ZIPCORE
PUTTER; Kronos release long neck
BALL; Bridgestone BX, OR Taylomade TP5x PIX

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On 10/12/2020 at 10:47 AM, jongalt55 said:

Any news on release dates for the new TM drivers?  I'm seriously thinking of picking up a SIM and I'd hate to pay full boat only to have them drop the price by $100 the week after I buy...

Anybody concerned about a price drop after they buy shouldn't be buying after Labor Day. If you can make it 2-3 months more you'll likely get that price drop.

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4 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

Not sure what is needed for the record... Are you saying I am biased?  I simply said I was not sure they were much deeper. I also said I had not measured. I do like the SIM. it has been a great driver for me. The max is slightly deeper and the Max D deeper still.

The Max D was the head I was most drawn to when I first saw them in hand.  It doesn't look as large behind the ball.  They did a good job hiding the face angle with the paint.  I feel like the face itself looked closed, or contorted or something.  Maybe it was the twist face looking more obvious on it.  It looked strange at address to me.  The regular Max looks and feels really nice too.  But, I would have preferred the face to be deeper.  But, I wouldn't hesitate to put it in the bag.  I thought the SIM lineup looked really good.  Hopefully, the next lineup keeps some of the aesthetics.  

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Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9* HZRDUS Smoke Green "The Hulk" 60 6.5TX
Callaway Epic Flash SZ 15* Evenflow Black 75 6.5
Callaway X-Forged UT 21* w/Motore Speeder TS 8.8 X
Callaway 2016 Apex Pro 4-PW KBS 130X
Taylormade Spider X Navy/White 35"
Callaway MD3 52, 56, 60
All sitting comfortably in my Sun Mountain Sync Cart Bag

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9 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

Not sure what is needed for the record... Are you saying I am biased?  I simply said I was not sure they were much deeper. I also said I had not measured. I do like the SIM. it has been a great driver for me. The max is slightly deeper and the Max D deeper still.

Not at all, I'm just clearly stating I play a SIM Max....Nothing more nothing less.

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Taylormade SIM MAX 9 (Set to 8.25U) Fujikura Speeder Evo IV 661 Stiff Tipped .5"
Taylormade M5 15 set to 14.5 Fujikura Motore Speeder TS 7.3 Stiff Tipped 1"
Bridgestone Tour B 19 Hybrid KBS Proto 85 Stiff
Taylormade M3 3i KBS Tour 105 Stiff
Bridgestone J15CB 5-PW DG AMT S300
Taylormade MG2 52 DGTIS400, MG2TW 56/12 DGTIS400, & Tour Raw Hi Toe 60/09 KBS HiRev 125
Scotty Cameron TeI Newport 2 Longneck 34"
Bridgestone Tour B XS

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9 minutes ago, ignitewvu said:

Not at all, I'm just clearly stating I play a SIM Max....Nothing more nothing less.

Gotcha. Thanks. 

Driver: Taylormade SIM 9 Project X Green 60TX

Fairway Finder: Taylormade Original One 13.5 Ventus Red 9X
Taylormade Gapr low 2 ventus blue 9x
4-PW Cobra king forged CB KBS $ Taper 130 X flex
Wedges 50, 54, 60 Cleveland ZIPCORE
PUTTER; Kronos release long neck
BALL; Bridgestone BX, OR Taylomade TP5x PIX

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I hit the SIM with a Ventus black over the weekend and the fitter told me I wouldn't even be able to order the combo I was trying as they are completely out of 9 degree heads. He said the sliding weight was going away. Feel was good, very different sound that what I'm used to. I guess I'll have to compare whatever the new driver is with the Tsi3, think those are the two contenders for me. 

Titleist 917 D3 9.5* Kiyoshi Black 65-05
Titleist 917 F3 15* VA Composite Drago 75-X
Titleist 818 H2 19* Tensei White 100-X
Mizuno MP-69 3-PW PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM7 Jet Black 54* S PX 6.5
Titleist Vokey SM7 Jet Black 60* M PX 6.0
Special Select Squareback 2 w/ IOmic

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14 hours ago, Valtiel said:


The "true tour offering" with a deep face and shallower front to back has both fallen out of favor on tour and proven to be a less efficient, poorer performer design, both from a spin and ball speed standpoint and from a forgiveness standpoint. In order to continue pushing the boundaries of both forgiveness and spin reduction, faces need to get shallower and weight needs to move back. With current materials, a deep faced, shallower front to back head design would be putting artificial barriers on how weight can be distributed. There have also been a number of rants (that I mostly agree with) about these true "tour only" offerings and how it is often a smack in the face to the consumer. 

I get where you're coming from, but this is basically a position that is one third subjective (aesthetics), one third mostly unpopular from a consumer standpoint (tour only clubs), and one third fallen out of favor from a club design standpoint.

Oh I absolutely agree. As the younger generation(I'm 33 so I shouldn't sound so old, haha) has come up in the game, they are used to using pancakes on a stick for drivers, AP2's, and big mallet putters. One can argue how much pro's equipment dictates consumer purchases but it has without a doubt changed how OEM's have produced equipment. If Callaway can produce their Sub Zero line(also see Mizuno or Titleist TS4) looking the way they do, then surely TM can. Again, maybe it doesn't make too much sense at retail but it wouldn't hurt to at least attempt to make technology not feel and look like crap(also looking at you Ping). Amazingly I feel Cobra has knocked it out of the park the last 2 generations as far as shape and displaying 'visible tech' in a cohesive package. 

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14 hours ago, ASN21 said:

spacer.png

You must crash your car alot... lol all jokes aside... not the worse drive obviously taylormade equitment preforms well... i just dont like their feel or look on most of their stuff. I just have others ranking ahead in. Certain areas. I do think their new irons look and probably preform great. They almost had me on putter with the spider x. Also my comment on the best players choosing taylormade... pretty sure most of them went that way because it performs good enough and they are probably being paid a bit more then other brands to play... lets be real... if mizuno  paid pga players... theyd all be there.

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10 hours ago, jds101086 said:

Oh I absolutely agree. As the younger generation(I'm 33 so I shouldn't sound so old, haha) has come up in the game, they are used to using pancakes on a stick for drivers, AP2's, and big mallet putters. One can argue how much pro's equipment dictates consumer purchases but it has without a doubt changed how OEM's have produced equipment. If Callaway can produce their Sub Zero line(also see Mizuno or Titleist TS4) looking the way they do, then surely TM can. Again, maybe it doesn't make too much sense at retail but it wouldn't hurt to at least attempt to make technology not feel and look like crap(also looking at you Ping). Amazingly I feel Cobra has knocked it out of the park the last 2 generations as far as shape and displaying 'visible tech' in a cohesive package. 


Agreed, and we're the same age, heh. I think my first "nice" driver was a.....Taylormade Firesole? I had tiny headed component clubs before then, just whatever my parents could afford. I remember getting the Orlimar Trimetal was the biggest deal in the world to me! 😄

I agree about the latest Cobra offerings, as well as how things have shifted over the years with regards to the next generation and what they are used to, but there is also some things that are pretty concrete. The G400 MAX, regardless what anyone feels about it, set a benchmark and I won't say "changed" the game, but definitely shifted it. That level of MOI while still retaining a relatively low CG was huge, and there is no question that it benefited a lot more people than your average driver release and really kicked PING up a notch. There is also the fact that of all the real modern "cult" classic clubs, both in the amateur retail market and on tour, pretty consistently fall within the same window in terms of MOI and CG. 2016 M2, GBB 2015, Callaway Fusion, Callaway Epic, G400 series, Cobra LTD....these are all club that pretty much live east of the mississippi in terms of MOI and are low to mid CG. There is also a conspicuous absence from these sort of cult lists in drivers that are lower MOI and higher CG, things like the Callaway 815/816, Nike Vapor line, any of the adjustable Taylormade M-series drivers with weights forward, earlier Srixon drivers. It also explains why the Titleist 915/917 was good but not great (similar to the cult classics but just higher CG) and why the TS3 was such a big standout for them (much lower CG). 

All that jargon is to say that short front to back & deep faced drivers push you towards that less popular lower MOI, higher CG category and i'm sure all the manufacturers know this. People usually like deep faces because it gives them confidence, but literally all it gives you is more room to make a bad strike. The sweet spot doesn't get any "bigger", only the mishit area does. And because a deeper face pushes the driver towards a lower MOI, those mishits are punished more. It is like the oversized SUV craze of the early 2000's. We thought we wanted them, they made us feel safe, but in reality they were just bulky and inefficient and soon fell out of favor to smaller crossovers. 

Edited by Valtiel
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Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
Titleist 915FD 14.25* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade SIM Ti 16* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Titleist 915FD 17.25* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Taylormade GAPR Lo 3 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid || Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Pro Platinum

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