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An ode to strong lofts.


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As I’ve grown older the to get irons have gaps it’s been hard not to go to the GI irons with stronger lofts. The Mavrik’s in the bag have a 5 degree gap between the 9 the PW and the AW from the PW. Th

Ah Golfwrx..."My handicap dropped 3 strokes due to my stronger lofted irons".   Response: "if he drowns he's innocent, if he floats he's a witch"

From the t100s review on my golf spy:   ANOTHER WORD ABOUT LOFT JACKING We’ve covered this many times before but, what the hell, I’ll bang my head into the wall again. Yes, everybody is

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2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

That's exactly it.  Loft determines distance.  Doesn't matter if your 36* iron has a 6, 7, or 8 on the sole, its still going to hit like a 36* iron for each player.

 

It *is* interesting how few players who say the number doesn't matter actually use something considered weaker, though.  LOL 

 

 

Yea, I remember seeing video somewhere on my Wilson V6's vs a Callaway SGI iron. V6 5 iron loft was the same as the Callaway 7 iron. Loft for loft the V6 was actually a bit longer.🤣

Titleist TS2
Titleist 917 F2 3 wood
Ping Anser 20,
Wilson V6's  3-GW
Ping Glide
58*ES

Bettinardi Queen B 6

 

 

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3 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Why? Because it fits your game. In the 90s that PW would be considered jacked up. Mine was a 50 degree PW during that time period. And probably was above that in the 50 thru 70s period. As a matter of fact my friend bought a set with a 47 degree loft in the 90s and he was accused of playing jacked up lofts. The 90s was the first time I saw a 45 and 46 degree offerings in wedges . There was no such thing as a gap wedge. And I believe the 60 degree wedge was introduced around this time as well. 
  The game evolves. No one has it right or wrong, it’s all in our minds. The number on the clubs means nothing. 

Because it was my opinion on where I like my lofts. Didnt mean to offend you. I started playing golf in the late 90's, my first set had a 35° 7i and 47° pw. I also play my irons 1/2" short to match what I'm used to. If you like jacked lofts, great. I have a set of JPX forged with a bit stronger lofts than I prefer. I usually end up back where I'm used to though. As long as you like what your hitting, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Hit it straight and have fun.

Callaway B21 10.5° - Fuji Speeder 569 IV

Mizuno ST190 3W - GD AD DI 6

Mizuno JPX 900 5W - Fuji Speeder 661 II

Mizuno MP54 (4-PW) - DG S300

Titleist Vokey SM5 52°/12° F Grind 

Titleist Vokey SM5 58°/11° K Grind 

Titleist Vokey SM5 62°/8° T Grind 

Titleist Scotty Cameron Select Newport 2

 

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...  duplicate

Edited by NRJyzr

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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5 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

I would also include the loft of the 7 iron at 27 degree has the height of the old seven iron even higher not the height of a 5 iron of old. Thanks to a lover CG in irons.

 

That's just it.  The CGs *aren't* lower.

 

How many sets are there these days with a CG lower than the 1950s Winged MT, which checks in at .742", much less the MP-14s, which are .687".  

 

As for hitting higher, I say so what?  Could find those sets 20, 30, or even 40+ years ago.  It's not a new development.

 

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

That's just it.  The CGs *aren't* lower.

 

How many sets are there these days with a CG lower than the 1950s Winged MT, which checks in at .742", much less the MP-14s, which are .687".  

 

As for hitting higher, I say so what?  Could find those sets 20, 30, or even 40+ years ago.  It's not a new development.

 

So tungsten weighting is myth ? I don’t think so. All manufacturers will tell you this. And seeing is believing. 

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Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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2 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

So tungsten weighting is myth ? I don’t think so. All manufacturers will tell you this. And seeing is believing. 

 

Well, take a look for yourself.

 

Here's Callaway's 2020 product line:

image.png.21d14fd084728b910b73b0dd080e8e66.png

 

And here's their 2011 line:

image.png.01614fcbeaf355856762b0ec4f0953ff.png

 

And here's the 90s stuff measured by GolfWorks, along with the X-14 Pro

image.png.17a260db35d4a51fa721f315f395004f.png

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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As to gapping, when I played a lot before various things happened to me I played clubs with 12 yard gaps from 110 for pw to 194 for 3 iron.  I tried what are now called gi clubs and lord knows what would happen.  If the shot was 200 yards plus i pulled out a wood.  The only time any more distance would really have helped was on really long par 4’s.  Not having too much distance tended to keep me from doing stupid things, stupidity being worse than lack of distance by a long shot.

 

I watch a lot of people play and practice.  They still mostly turn too shallow, come out of the shot, and hit the ground before the ball.   And swing too hard to get the distance they think their new clubs are supposed to give them.  And slice.  All the tech in the world can’t help them.

 

The idea of making something difficult easier, at the cost of ever learning to do it well, has a name: crutch.

 

To some, golf has elements of personal development and actualization, of self mastery, similar to the supposed benefits of martial arts, or bow hunting, or fly fishing.

 

On this forum, I see people who say they swing 110 miles an hour, hit a 7 iron 190 yards, and cannot break 90.  That is not self mastery.

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9 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Well, take a look for yourself.

 

Here's Callaway's 2020 product line:

image.png.21d14fd084728b910b73b0dd080e8e66.png

 

And here's their 2011 line:

image.png.01614fcbeaf355856762b0ec4f0953ff.png

 

And here's the 90s stuff measured by GolfWorks, along with the X-14 Pro

image.png.17a260db35d4a51fa721f315f395004f.png

The highest that can be 1.0. That is a significant improvement.

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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35 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

The highest that can be 1.0. That is a significant improvement.

 

Are you reading thatg as a grading scale?  It's the measurement of the vertical CG in inches.  The higher the number, the higher the CG.

 

They're not improving, but quite the opposite.

 

 

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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46 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Are you reading thatg as a grading scale?  It's the measurement of the vertical CG in inches.  The higher the number, the higher the CG.

 

They're not improving, but quite the opposite.

 

 

I concede that but isn’t this Maltby’s own creation ? Not a standard norm used by other companies? And why do I see more height in my current 27 degree iron than my 30 degree 7 iron and even more than the 27 degree 6 iron of my older set?

Edited by NoTalentLefty

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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7 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

I concede that but isn’t this Maltby’s own creation ? Not a standard norm used by other companies?

 

The MPF formula is Maltby's creation.  The data points used in the formula are the physical attributes of the clubheads in question.  It's a bit more involved than taking a ruler or calipers to measure the height of the clubhead, but the CG, MOI, and C Dimension are still just measurements of the clubhead.

 

 

Edited by NRJyzr

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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I honestly don't see how stronger lofts can help anyone lower their h.c. unless they hit the ball too high across the set or they just don't take enough club in the first place. After all irons are just to cover the 0-200 +/- range and it hardly matters what is stamped on the club.

 

While stronger lofted irons may help one feel like they are hitting better that concept isn't going to work with the driver. I have a nephew that is a really good golfer and he likes to tell me his TM 8 iron goes 200 yards, which is longer than BDC, and I remind him that he doesn't hit the driver 340 like Byson so what's the point? He does hit it 300, btw, but still it makes no sense for him to use jacked irons because now he has to carry 5 wedges, P, G1, G2, S, L.

 

Macgregor M-38 9.5, Mondeo 5w, Heater F-35 4h, Acer XV Tour 6i-9i, G, S, Maltby LW, Bionik 105

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3 minutes ago, chipa said:

I honestly don't see how stronger lofts can help anyone lower their h.c. unless they hit the ball too high across the set or they just don't take enough club in the first place. After all irons are just to cover the 0-200 +/- range and it hardly matters what is stamped on the club.

 

While stronger lofted irons may help one feel like they are hitting better that concept isn't going to work with the driver. I have a nephew that is a really good golfer and he likes to tell me his TM 8 iron goes 200 yards, which is longer than BDC, and I remind him that he doesn't hit the driver 340 like Byson so what's the point? He does hit it 300, btw, but still it makes no sense for him to use jacked irons because now he has to carry 5 wedges, P, G1, G2, S, L.

It is the gapping that allows the game improvement as well as the ease of hitting a GI club that caused a the game improvement. The 7 iron is 27 but even easier to hit than a 7 iron in a players club. At least for these old bones playing to 11.6 currently.

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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24 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

It is the gapping that allows the game improvement as well as the ease of hitting a GI club that caused a the game improvement. The 7 iron is 27 but even easier to hit than a 7 iron in a players club. At least for these old bones playing to 11.6 currently.

 

Comparing the gapping between a traditional set of blades and the new Mavrick's the traditional ones actually have the gaps covered better from 2i to PW, as opposed to Mavrick's  4i to AW.

 

As far as being easier to hit, that doesn't have anything to do with the lofts as far as I can tell. The loft is just whatever number the mfgr decides to stamp on their clubs, in the case of the Callaway Mavrick's they and Cobra just like to stamp a higher number that's all. But then again they were the ones that got us into this boat anyway some 20 odd years ago. I expect by 2040 the Cobras and Callaways will have eliminated the 4 and 5 iron and we'll have 6 thru 14 when they run out of what to call the "gap" wedges.

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Macgregor M-38 9.5, Mondeo 5w, Heater F-35 4h, Acer XV Tour 6i-9i, G, S, Maltby LW, Bionik 105

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Another one of these. Guys “jacked lofts” arent a thing. They jacked the number on the bottom. As @NRJyzr correctly pointed out, cgs havent moved lower, but the trend has been higher. The only possible explanation for this trend in jacking the bottom number is, launch monitors in the big box stores. Everyone has a 7 iron or whatever to demo. If company A’s seven iron goes 10 yards further than yours, or company B’s, then 90 percent of people wont even question how, they just assume newer is better, and “technology”. Its going to sell. I and many others dont care what you call your 27 degree club. All that matters is proximity to the hole whether you call that a 5 iron or 7 iron. But this isnt new technology. 

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2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Comparing the gapping between a traditional set of blades and the new Mavrick's the traditional ones actually have the gaps covered better from 2i to PW, as opposed to Mavrick's  4i to AW.

 

As far as being easier to hit, that doesn't have anything to do with the lofts as far as I can tell. The loft is just whatever number the mfgr decides to stamp on their clubs, in the case of the Callaway Mavrick's they and Cobra just like to stamp a higher number that's all. But then again they were the ones that got us into this boat anyway some 20 odd years ago. I expect by 2040 the Cobras and Callaways will have eliminated the 4 and 5 iron and we'll have 6 thru 14 when they run out of what to call the "gap" wedges.

And that is my point . Gapping has always been a 10 yard to 15 yard between clubs. Some one like me needs to go with something like this to get that or I’d need more than 14 clubs with gaps of 7 yards. By the way it was stated earlier that this was a tongue and cheek posting. I know my 7 iron is a five from my old sets I’ve had. Don’t care it’s easier to hit. 

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Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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3 hours ago, chipa said:

I honestly don't see how stronger lofts can help anyone lower their h.c. unless they hit the ball too high across the set or they just don't take enough club in the first place. After all irons are just to cover the 0-200 +/- range and it hardly matters what is stamped on the club.

 

While stronger lofted irons may help one feel like they are hitting better that concept isn't going to work with the driver. I have a nephew that is a really good golfer and he likes to tell me his TM 8 iron goes 200 yards, which is longer than BDC, and I remind him that he doesn't hit the driver 340 like Byson so what's the point? He does hit it 300, btw, but still it makes no sense for him to use jacked irons because now he has to carry 5 wedges, P, G1, G2, S, L.

 

3 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Comparing the gapping between a traditional set of blades and the new Mavrick's the traditional ones actually have the gaps covered better from 2i to PW, as opposed to Mavrick's  4i to AW.

 

As far as being easier to hit, that doesn't have anything to do with the lofts as far as I can tell. The loft is just whatever number the mfgr decides to stamp on their clubs, in the case of the Callaway Mavrick's they and Cobra just like to stamp a higher number that's all. But then again they were the ones that got us into this boat anyway some 20 odd years ago. I expect by 2040 the Cobras and Callaways will have eliminated the 4 and 5 iron and we'll have 6 thru 14 when they run out of what to call t

All I can say it works for me. It wouldn’t have worked for me 30 years ago in my thirties. Why I could hit longer . My PW was at 50 degrees then. And 9 was at 46 or so. And yes there was a 12 yard gap between them then. 

Edited by NoTalentLefty

Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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41 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

And that is my point . Gapping has always been a 10 yard to 15 yard between clubs. Some one like me needs to go with something like this to get that or I’d need more than 14 clubs with gaps of 7 yards. By the way it was stated earlier that this was a tongue and cheek posting. I know my 7 iron is a five from my old sets I’ve had. Don’t care it’s easier to hit. 

 

The 1968 Wilson Staffs had 18 deg. to 48 deg. covered by the 2 iron to the PW(9 clubs). The Mavrick cover 18 to 46 deg. with the 4 iron to the AW(8 clubs). So the Mavricks have one less club.

 

Lets say there is a 80 yard differential between the 2 iron and the PW for the Staffs, that means the gapping would be 80/(9-1) = 10 yards on average. Prorating the differential in distance to the Mavricks and we would have 80*(46-18)/(48-18) = 74.7 yards divided by (8-1) would be 10.7 yards a club. 

 

Macgregor M-38 9.5, Mondeo 5w, Heater F-35 4h, Acer XV Tour 6i-9i, G, S, Maltby LW, Bionik 105

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3 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

The 1968 Wilson Staffs had 18 deg. to 48 deg. covered by the 2 iron to the PW(9 clubs). The Mavrick cover 18 to 46 deg. with the 4 iron to the AW(8 clubs). So the Mavricks have one less club.

 

Lets say there is a 80 yard differential between the 2 iron and the PW for the Staffs, that means the gapping would be 80/(9-1) = 10 yards on average. Prorating the differential in distance to the Mavricks and we would have 80*(46-18)/(48-18) = 74.7 yards divided by (8-1) would be 10.7 yards a club. 

With the Mavs, there’s also a GW at 51,  so there’s 9 clubs also. This year the standard Mavs have the stronger of the 2 sets so there’s essentially 9 clubs. Whatever it takes to cover “YOUR”gaps.I do it with old school lofts and a SW only. 9 clubs unless I bag the 2iron. Less is better for me. My son looked at my bag few days ago and asked”do you even own a 60* wedge”.  Yes, I own one but, not no, but h- - l no, I don’t carry it!’

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18 minutes ago, boggyman said:

With the Mavs, there’s also a GW at 51,  so there’s 9 clubs also. This year the standard Mavs have the stronger of the 2 sets so there’s essentially 9 clubs. Whatever it takes to cover “YOUR”gaps.I do it with old school lofts and a SW only. 9 clubs unless I bag the 2iron. Less is better for me. My son looked at my bag few days ago and asked”do you even own a 60* wedge”.  Yes, I own one but, not no, but h- - l no, I don’t carry it!’

 

I'm aware that the Mavrik's have a GW, but still it doesn't changes the yardages, still if you decide to use it then you are carrying the same number of clubs and have only increased the gapping by 0.7 yards and the distance covered by 6 yards or so.  

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Macgregor M-38 9.5, Mondeo 5w, Heater F-35 4h, Acer XV Tour 6i-9i, G, S, Maltby LW, Bionik 105

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