I need a notebook to keep track of my swing thoughts....

[2bGood]

Yikes! Things are getting pretty bad and it seems I need a checklist of swing thoughts to 'find' my swing. It is like I need to do 9 things right and 0 things wrong to make a good swing and if I do 8 things right and forget about the 9th swing thought I hit the ball poorly.

 

Not really sure where to go from here as I do get my checklist right, I am playing solid golf and shooting low 70's but when I forget and an element of my swing my scores go way up as I spend the entire round searching for what I am doing wrong. Seem like there is nothing natural about my swing anymore.

 

Current list:

 

Take away - from shoulder

Take away - on the correct plane

Grip - light

Grip - weaken

Weight transfer - aggressive

Turn Hips - point buckle

Tempo - slow back, easy through

Head - keep still

Stay connected

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Yikes! Things are getting pretty bad and it seems I need a checklist of swing thoughts to 'find' my swing. It is like I need to do 9 things right and 0 things wrong to make a good swing and if I do 8 things right and forget about the 9th swing thought I hit the ball poorly.

 

Not really sure where to go from here as I do get my checklist right, I am playing solid golf and shooting low 70's but when I forget and an element of my swing my scores go way up as I spend the entire round searching for what I am doing wrong. Seem like there is nothing natural about my swing anymore.

 

Current list:

 

Take away - from shoulder

Take away - on the correct plane

Grip - light

Grip - weaken

Weight transfer - aggressive

Turn Hips - point buckle

Tempo - slow back, easy through

Head - keep still

Stay connected

 

 

 

I think I have an Encyclopedia Britannica Volume of Swing thoughts... Good luck.... this is 99.9999% why I suck at this game...

 

Dump that crap and swing away LOL! 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Exactice808

[Noodler]

You have fallen into the "internal cues" trap.  You should look into the use of external cues to achieve peak performance.  If you're interested in some external cues I can provide some examples that I use.  The key is to move away from playing "golf swing" and instead start playing golf.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

I think I have an Encyclopedia Britannica Volume of Swing thoughts... Good luck.... this is 99.9999% why I suck at this game...

 

Dump that crap and swing away LOL! 

 

1 hour ago, Noodler said:

You have fallen into the "internal cues" trap.  You should look into the use of external cues to achieve peak performance.  If you're interested in some external cues I can provide some examples that I use.  The key is to move away from playing "golf swing" and instead start playing golf.

 

I am not sure it as easy as you both suggest. My challenge, is not so much that I have 'internal cues' or that I need to 'swing away'. I have always been a feel player, but I also have always had a swing thought or two. I have shot in the 60's with this style of mental game. I don't play or practice as much, but I am still shooting near/below par 1/4 of the time, so I am not it makes sense the through it all away. I am more looking for a way to simplify my internal cues and still make good swings as when I 'swing away' or focus on external cues I produce some very bad results.

[Noodler]

3 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

I am not sure it as easy as you both suggest. My challenge, is not so much that I have 'internal cues' or that I need to 'swing away'. I have always been a feel player, but I also have always had a swing thought or two. I have shot in the 60's with this style of mental game. I don't play or practice as much, but I am still shooting near/below par 1/4 of the time, so I am not it makes sense the through it all away. I am more looking for a way to simplify my internal cues and still make good swings as when I 'swing away' or focus on external cues I produce some very bad results.

 

External cue focus will allow you to produce the good results that previously have come from your internal focus without needing to go through a large laundry list of those internal cues to get there.  That's the beauty of shifting your intention away from the positions of your body parts (or the club) and instead giving focus to the outcomes.

 

Many papers have been written about how external cues achieve higher sport performance than the use of internal cues.  Take the time to really understand the difference and then develop your own set of external cues that help you perform at your highest level.

[chipa]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Yikes! Things are getting pretty bad and it seems I need a checklist of swing thoughts to 'find' my swing. It is like I need to do 9 things right and 0 things wrong to make a good swing and if I do 8 things right and forget about the 9th swing thought I hit the ball poorly.

 

Not really sure where to go from here as I do get my checklist right, I am playing solid golf and shooting low 70's but when I forget and an element of my swing my scores go way up as I spend the entire round searching for what I am doing wrong. Seem like there is nothing natural about my swing anymore.

 

Current list:

 

Take away - from shoulder

Take away - on the correct plane

Grip - light

Grip - weaken

Weight transfer - aggressive

Turn Hips - point buckle

Tempo - slow back, easy through

Head - keep still

Stay connected

 

 

 

 

You are already better than most of us here. I also like most have a list of things to do and I have tried to put them together on the "hard drive" but leave them out of the "RAM" memory, haha.

 

Here goes.

 

# Stance - I set up like a lot of pros the right leg braced and turned in a little plus I turn my left shoulder compared to my hips so I can push my shoulder back easily with the arm to start the swing.

 

#Setup - Right hand first like most pros on the bottom of the club butt of left hand on top so it can be pushed back easily. Also, my hands are firmer than most then again I have a tendency to pull my right hand back. My hands oppose like Henry Cotton recommended and my elbows are a little bent. There is tension in my forearms too. There is a video of Hogan doing this with short sleeves that I try to emulate. I set my hands and forearms like this to give my arm structure so they can't go anywhere they shouldn't

 

After my stance and setup is set I no longer am thinking about them.

 

#Takeaway - push my left shoulder back with the arm in front of my body against both feet that are already kind of pointed at the target so a linear tension builds in my legs and gives me a downswing direction that is all but automatic and get my shoulder to my chin then a rebound off the right side with a slight lateral shift and I swing through the ball. It really feels a lot simpler than I am explaining it, I'm only really thinking about pushing back to start and getting my shoulder to the chin and don't jump at it.

 

So basically once I am setup I have a linear push takeaway that makes the downswing all but automatic with the legs. I hit it pretty good for a mid h.c. when I'm on. I've swung in the 120's when I was young.

[jdl]

I did this once, wrote 6 or so little things I had learned about my grip, stance, takeaway, etc on an index card. Then the next spring of course I reviewed that card at the start of the season, right? Nope, never looked at it. Then about the end of May or so, I "learned" all those things again and started playing well. And that's when I remembered about that index card.... 🤪

Edited October 15, 2020 by jdl

[tm3]

Quantum Golf by Kjell Enhager provides some interesting insights relative to this.

[naval2006]

2bGood,

 

I sympathise with you because I've been through this for some time now.  I've never had loads of thoughts when swinging but three or four that I interchanged.  I assume you've been playing for a while.  I sometimes have a feeling that I'm mentally trapped in my best days and find it very difficult to get adapted to getting older and a game that little by little gets deteriorated but there is still some beef in it.  

 

On focussing on external cues it's a wonderful method but I find it hard to get used to.  I try that on and off.  I think we're in a bracket of golfers that has to deal with this stuff but we may be too few because nothing much has ever been said or written about this.  

[shoot4par]

In a practical sense, Write in rain pads work well for me... easy to keep in golf bag and water resistant. Check pad before range session, round, practice, etc. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by shoot4par

[milesgiles]

13 hours ago, Noodler said:

 

External cue focus will allow you to produce the good results that previously have come from your internal focus without needing to go through a large laundry list of those internal cues to get there.  That's the beauty of shifting your intention away from the positions of your body parts (or the club) and instead giving focus to the outcomes.

 

Many papers have been written about how external cues achieve higher sport performance than the use of internal cues.  Take the time to really understand the difference and then develop your own set of external cues that help you perform at your highest level.

 

I have about 20 notes on my phone each consisting of 8-10 setup/swing thoughts, all written after various good rounds/practise sessions.

 

for example, I’ve found that I need to push my right hip back on the backswing. I’ve confirmed it on film. How do I externalise that? 

 

Interested, but sceptical 

[Noodler]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

I have about 20 notes on my phone each consisting of 8-10 setup/swing thoughts, all written after various good rounds/practise sessions.

 

for example, I’ve found that I need to push my right hip back on the backswing. I’ve confirmed it on film. How do I externalise that? 

 

Interested, but sceptical 

 

What is the feel you get when you use that internal cue?  What is the outcome you see in the ball flight when you do the hip movement properly?  That's how you "externalize" the internal cues.

[milesgiles]

2 minutes ago, Noodler said:

 

What is the feel you get when you use that internal cue?  What is the outcome you see in the ball flight when you do the hip movement properly?  That's how you "externalize" the internal cues.

 

The feel is that from the position of my right hip back I have no choice but to unwind my hips first on the downswing ahead of my arms and shoulders. What’s to externalise? 

[dblinden]

You don't need a notebook. That's ridiculous. Everything you need is right here. Just download to your phone and scan it before each shot.

 

[golfsticks]

35 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

I have about 20 notes on my phone each consisting of 8-10 setup/swing thoughts, all written after various good rounds/practise sessions.

 

for example, I’ve found that I need to push my right hip back on the backswing. I’ve confirmed it on film. How do I externalise that? 

 

Interested, but sceptical 

 

Many amateurs cannot see the forest for the trees from any vantage point.    

[berndgeurts]

I also had many thoughts and promises (next time I will remember this ...), But now I stopped. I have one feeling that I want to feel during my practice swing, after that it's bombs away. 

And after a few golf rounds I end up on the range telling me how to swing totally forgetting that feeling.. golf...

[Exactice808]

16 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

 

I am not sure it as easy as you both suggest. My challenge, is not so much that I have 'internal cues' or that I need to 'swing away'. I have always been a feel player, but I also have always had a swing thought or two. I have shot in the 60's with this style of mental game. I don't play or practice as much, but I am still shooting near/below par 1/4 of the time, so I am not it makes sense the through it all away. I am more looking for a way to simplify my internal cues and still make good swings as when I 'swing away' or focus on external cues I produce some very bad results.

My Apologies, I was being sarcastic as I have TERRIBLE swing thoughts, So much goes through my mind, I collapse all the time.  I say just swing away and forget it,  But I am a 100% hypocrite, I just cant.... Every damn thing creeps into my head and its frustrating.

 

 

[OldFrog75]

My father was an avid golfer.  He loved to play and ultimately bought a house along one of the fairways of a local club where he was a member, cut a hole in the fence, and bought his own golf cart.  He was also a very intelligent and logical man intent on doing things the right way.  After he passed my brothers and I were sorting through his things and found a list of "Swing Thoughts" in his office.  Presumably it was a list of all the thoughts that went through his mind every time he swung a golf club.

 

There were 22 items on the list.  My brothers and I had a good laugh about that.  It was quintessential Dad.

Edited October 15, 2020 by OldFrog75

[2bGood]

21 hours ago, chipa said:

 

You are already better than most of us here. I also like most have a list of things to do and I have tried to put them together on the "hard drive" but leave them out of the "RAM" memory, haha.

 

Here goes.

 

# Stance - I set up like a lot of pros the right leg braced and turned in a little plus I turn my left shoulder compared to my hips so I can push my shoulder back easily with the arm to start the swing.

 

#Setup - Right hand first like most pros on the bottom of the club butt of left hand on top so it can be pushed back easily. Also, my hands are firmer than most then again I have a tendency to pull my right hand back. My hands oppose like Henry Cotton recommended and my elbows are a little bent. There is tension in my forearms too. There is a video of Hogan doing this with short sleeves that I try to emulate. I set my hands and forearms like this to give my arm structure so they can't go anywhere they shouldn't

 

After my stance and setup is set I no longer am thinking about them.

 

#Takeaway - push my left shoulder back with the arm in front of my body against both feet that are already kind of pointed at the target so a linear tension builds in my legs and gives me a downswing direction that is all but automatic and get my shoulder to my chin then a rebound off the right side with a slight lateral shift and I swing through the ball. It really feels a lot simpler than I am explaining it, I'm only really thinking about pushing back to start and getting my shoulder to the chin and don't jump at it.

 

So basically once I am setup I have a linear push takeaway that makes the downswing all but automatic with the legs. I hit it pretty good for a mid h.c. when I'm on. I've swung in the 120's when I was young.

I have them in the note app in phone. I do play better if I stop and think through what I am trying to do before I start the round. But it getting out of control, it used to be 1 or 2 things. 

[Hackinator]

Although this diagram may look like a joke.  It’s actually crammed with really good swing thoughts.  Just about every tip is sound ..lol

Edited October 16, 2020 by Hackinator

[chipa]

I had the opportunity to play 9 holes yesterday and was eager to try out one of Jimmy Ballard's elbow wristcock technique. Unfortunately that went left (literally) very quickly so I started setting up with my driver swing right arm first in front of the body with the right elbow in front of the right hip and low and the inside of the elbow pushed to the target but forearm facing in front and then put my left hand on top and immediately hit it better, but still hooked it. Then against every known "modern swing" "one piece takeaway" convention I turned my left hand over to start the swing (while keeping the right hand low and feeling the elbows connected) a la Ben Hogan (Mike Austin  and John Daly, etc) then once the left hand and shaft was pointing back just pushed everything back in front of me on the line of the shaft. It was beautiful to say the least. I can't remember hitting my irons so long. My 9 iron goes 155 easy and I play a blade with 41 deg. of loft.

 

The great thing was getting my right elbow like I did (I believe this is how Mike Austin shows in one of his videos) kind of locks the legs into place. As long as the right hand opposes the left and doesn't pull back and the left hand turns over everything else was almost automatic - as long as I didn't jump at the ball. I kind of like to start my swing with a slight hip bump/shift to the left anyway so as long as I did that I hit it good.

[chippa13]

We don't play swing, we play golf. I don't have swing thoughts, I have target thoughts. Swing thoughts are fine for a practice swing but have no place in the game swing.

[zachillusions]

My advice is you need to convert those thoughts into feels through practice. Sure, write down the things you think you need in your swing for a good round, and go to the range and ~practice~ those things, get a feel, work drills, etc. The more you practice it, the more natural these things will feel and the less you'll need to think about them.

 

Keep the notes with the thoughts, drills, etc listed out. You're going to go out there and sometimes play bad golf but thats normal - when you do, go back to those notes and run through those drills, thoughts, etc in a practice session. Players are constantly chasing change, when something goes wrong they have to ~change~ something they're doing to fix it and its usually wrong. What they actually need is to get some maintenance, i.e. practice to maintain what they're good at.

 

Its also worth mentioning that if having a lot of swing thoughts works for you and you don't mind it, that its ok to keep it up. There's no right or wrong answers in golf, if it works it works.

[milesgiles]

17 hours ago, chippa13 said:

We don't play swing, we play golf. I don't have swing thoughts, I have target thoughts. Swing thoughts are fine for a practice swing but have no place in the game swing.

 

Not for me. I need at least one swing thought, usually two. 

[milesgiles]

On 10/15/2020 at 4:21 PM, Noodler said:

 

What is the feel you get when you use that internal cue?  What is the outcome you see in the ball flight when you do the hip movement properly?  That's how you "externalize" the internal cues.

 

So what’s your answer to me earlier question? I’m not being cynical,  I agree it’s at least interesting and might be useful, but how am I to externalise what I feel and try to do, as I described in my earlier post?

[Arn]

I have a little list, it’s only 3 long, I keep it on my phone. When I’m hitting it poorly I check my list. One of the 3 normally fixes it.

[Noodler]

54 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

So what’s your answer to me earlier question? I’m not being cynical,  I agree it’s at least interesting and might be useful, but how am I to externalise what I feel and try to do, as I described in my earlier post?

 

@zachillusions has it right when discussing connecting your "feels" to outcomes through practice.  It's fine to use the internal swing cues while practicing... that's how we develop the feels that those swing thoughts create.  It's often said that "feel doesn't equal real", but feel is all we have to go by.  The real key is use a good bio-feedback loop to help you understand what movements are connected to which feels.  This includes the use of training aids and especially the use of video and a launch monitor to provide the feedback that connects the feels to the results.

 

So regarding your previous question regarding how to externalize your internal cue regarding your hip motion; identify what good thing "externally" happens when you get your hip motion correct.  Don't use more internal cues (like what's happening with your arms and shoulders), rather what do you feel in the club, or what does it do for your impact, or your ball flight, etc.?  Stay away from using more body part "positions" and lean more on the "results" you get when those positions are correct.

 

When I play golf, I focus on my "intentions".  When I use intention-based golf I play my best.  The internal swing thoughts are not in my "presence of mind", but instead the focus is on "I want the ball to go there" and to do that I am going to make the ball fly high with a fade (as an example).  I shape my shots by focusing on which "field" I throw the club to (i.e. throw the club to right field for a draw, left field for a fade, etc.).

 

Hope this helps as I am by no means an expert in this area.  I learned about external cues through my experiences from years of ski coaching and I brought that understanding to my golf game.  I found that this approach is also used commonly in good golf instruction.

[Hawkeye77]

Yikes ----- addition by subtraction!!!

 

You go order a pizza (!) you need to focus on a few keys or you'll be lost on that endless menu of combos, specials, and single ingredient options. 😉

Edited October 17, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[cardoustie]

I have 10 key things on the notepad on my phone ... that I will look at ... if my mojo goes on vacay

[Noodler]

When I played yesterday, I made my intention to be taking good divots on all my iron and wedge shots.  I didn't think about the "how" in taking a good divot, instead I just made it my one and only swing thought while focusing on my target.  Through practice, I have taught my brain what movements I need to do correctly to take a good divot.  So the other important part of moving away from needing a laundry list of internal swing cues is the concept of "train to trust".  When you practice, that's the time to use the internal cues and connect them to the outcomes.  Think to yourself, "when I do this, this, and this, I get that, that, and that".  Keep working on getting those movements correct and train your brain to trust that those movements will bring the good results.  When you go play, your focus on the desired results will produce the good movements, if you have "trained to trust".  😉