Shaft for 48” driver experiment?

[BREWMASTER95060]

Just now, Howard_Jones said:

RED or BLUE?

How did it "work" in terms of SW value
(what play length and head weight)

I never saw specs for a really long driver made using any of those.

But sure, if we dont like it its really trash, price tag want matter, it only tells how much we lost 🙂

Hi Howard,
this is the one I did not like:
https://www.ebay.com/i/401503144680?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401503144680&targetid=4580840328168110&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=403206327&mkgroupid=1235851284533770&rlsatarget=pla-4580840328168110&abcId=9300372&merchantid=51291&msclkid=f93ff56fd26710335d71aae0079402e1

[BREWMASTER95060]

 have not used the shaft you talked about.

 

[Howard_Jones]

12 hours ago, hardpan1 said:

Tried the Krank 7.5* Rage and while I hit it good, I'm afraid my measly 100mph does't get the Pop required to max out that long drive head, will continue 'research' 🙂 

The Jumbomax gives the club excellent stability.

Look into my DIY driver tune up, it might be a balance issue that guide will help you to solve

IDEAL IMPACT - KRANK RAGE

Face height is 53 mm - VCOG in "pen position" is 19 mm down from the crown. ideal Impact height area becomes from 29 down from the crown to 19 mm down from the crown. The middle between 19 and 29 is 24.5 mm and 1 inch is 25.4 mm, so we can simply say "1 inch down from the crown" is "target" height for impact.

This heads has no BIAS, and face wide at measured COG is about 100 mm, so actual COG is 50 mm in from both sides.

To take advantage of COG and toe side club speed, the ideal impact area becomes a 60* angle toe side of the circle, like the circle rested against a 60* Pyramid wall. Impact with the center of the ball on that line is the shots with highest ball speed from this head.

(this is for Krank Rage heads without added hotmelt at standard head wgt, head measured was 7.5* true loft)

To get the max out of that head FOCUS on impact, NOT clubspeed (moderate tempo and C.speed)

If you pay attention  to the alignment mark on the crown vs COG, you will notice that the alignment mark is actually "spot on" the area of the face thats "ideal" and thats 2 to 3/8" toe side of COG




 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Righty to Lefty]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 11:39 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

How the length will change will depend more on what you do to the head weight (to manage swing weight).  Going from 45" to 48" means roughly an increase in swing weight of 18 pts.   So if it was D0 at 45" then it would be E8 at 48".   So basically the first question you have to ask is how can you get the head lighter and how light can you make it.   Ideally you're going to want to drop around 30 gm for a reasonable swing weight at that length.  That's what is going to dominate the question of how the shaft stiffness might change.  It will also likely play a big part in how long you can play it.

 

Also keep in mind that adding length doesn't automatically add swing speed, particularly with amateurs.  And even if it does, being able to maintain center face contact (the ability to get the extra ball speed from the extra swing speed) can be much more difficult.   Don't get me wrong, no reason not to give it a try.  So by all means go for it.  Just be careful about getting the hopes up too high.  You should find some way to monitor what kind of gains you're really getting when you give it a try. 

 

 

Swing weight is just a measure of how much you feel the club head and there is no such thing as a "normal" swing weight as this is a personal preference for each golfer. The total weight isn't affected that much at all as the 3 inches of shaft doesn't weigh more than a couple grams so it is a good opportunity to see if you should be a "high" swing weight player or not as most never hit a club with a swing weight of E8 or C8 for that matter and thus most never know whether or not they like it better than the D4 ish swing weight that the industry provides.  If total weight and swing weight are not addressed during a fitting, have you really been fit?  In my opinion no.  If you put in a  counter weight then you have added to the total weight in an attempt to reduce the feel of the club head which is a bad thing in my opinion.  If you are going to experiment with a club that is 3 inches longer then my thinking is get the full experience of the length and swing weight increase.  Then when you go back to your regular length driver you will know if you need to increase the swing weight or not if the longer length shaft didn't produce an increase in swing and ball speed. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Righty to Lefty

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Swing weight is just a measure of how much you feel the club head and there is no such thing as a "normal" swing weight as this is a personal preference for each golfer. The total weight isn't affected that much at all as the 3 inches of shaft doesn't weigh more than a couple grams so it is a good opportunity to see if you should be a "high" swing weight player or not as most never hit a club with a swing weight of E8 or C8 for that matter and thus most never know whether or not they like it better than the D4 ish swing weight that the industry provides.  If total weight and swing weight are not addressed during a fitting, have you really been fit?  In my opinion no.  If you put in a  counter weight then you have added to the total weight in an attempt to reduce the feel of the club head which is a bad thing in my opinion.  If you are going to experiment with a club that is 3 inches longer then my thinking is get the full experience of the length and swing weight increase.  Then when you go back to your regular length driver you will know if you need to increase the swing weight or not of the longer length shaft didn't produce and increase in swing and ball speed. 

 

A proper fitting for head weight needs to be able to test a wide range of head weight or swing weight values.  That means being able to test both light and heavy swing weights at the desired length.    And it's always easy to add weight to test as heavy as you want, you don't have to add playing length to see if a heavier swing weight might be a good fit.   And it's actually a bad way since head weight fitting results are only valid at the tested length (and static weight).  Anytime you change playing length, you should always refit for head weight and not rely on values found to work at different setups.

 

[Howard_Jones]

Just adding some scenarios to "what might happen if" going from 45" to 48"

 

[Righty to Lefty]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

A proper fitting for head weight needs to be able to test a wide range of head weight or swing weight values.  That means being able to test both light and heavy swing weights at the desired length.    And it's always easy to add weight to test as heavy as you want, you don't have to add playing length to see if a heavier swing weight might be a good fit.   And it's actually a bad way since head weight fitting results are only valid at the tested length (and static weight).  Anytime you change playing length, you should always refit for head weight and not rely on values found to work at different setups.

 

Yeah but this test is testing a shaft that is 3 inches longer.  Swing weight is a preference and not a standard as is head weight and all golfers will react differently and you don't necessarily have to fit the club back to what is considered standard swing weight if the golfer prefers the gain or loss of swing weight. My clubs are at F5 and I love them but that is because I know that I hate E5, D5, and C5 because I hit my clubs in those settings during testing.  Ask any golfer what swing weight they prefer and 99.9% can't tell you because they have never experienced other swing weights before. 

[Stuart_G]

13 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah but this test is testing a shaft that is 3 inches longer.  Swing weight is a preference and not a standard as is head weight and all golfers will react differently and you don't necessarily have to fit the club back to what is considered standard swing weight if the golfer prefers the gain or loss of swing weight. My clubs are at F5 and I love them but that is because I know that I hate E5, D5, and C5 because I hit my clubs in those settings during testing.  Ask any golfer what swing weight they prefer and 99.9% can't tell you because they have never experienced other swing weights before. 

 

Of course there is no standard for what will work I never said there was or that the golfer had to go back to any original value.  Head weight always has to be fit by feel hitting balls but to do that they need to start on the light side and work their way up in head weight (or down in length if there are limits to how light the head can go).  Each player has to figure that out themselves.  What works for you isn't going to help the OP any more than if I were to try and tell them what works for me.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Augster]

Thanks for all the replies!  
 

I’m going to give that shaft from DiamondTour a shot. 
 

Now if this snow would ever go away....

[hardpan1]

On 10/21/2020 at 1:58 AM, Howard_Jones said:

Look into my DIY driver tune up, it might be a balance issue that guide will help you to solve

IDEAL IMPACT - KRANK RAGE

Face height is 53 mm - VCOG in "pen position" is 19 mm down from the crown. ideal Impact height area becomes from 29 down from the crown to 19 mm down from the crown. The middle between 19 and 29 is 24.5 mm and 1 inch is 25.4 mm, so we can simply say "1 inch down from the crown" is "target" height for impact.

This heads has no BIAS, and face wide at measured COG is about 100 mm, so actual COG is 50 mm in from both sides.

To take advantage of COG and toe side club speed, the ideal impact area becomes a 60* angle toe side of the circle, like the circle rested against a 60* Pyramid wall. Impact with the center of the ball on that line is the shots with highest ball speed from this head.

(this is for Krank Rage heads without added hotmelt at standard head wgt, head measured was 7.5* true loft)

To get the max out of that head FOCUS on impact, NOT clubspeed (moderate tempo and C.speed)

If you pay attention  to the alignment mark on the crown vs COG, you will notice that the alignment mark is actually "spot on" the area of the face thats "ideal" and thats 2 to 3/8" toe side of COG




 

 

Thank you Howard, that's amazing, never would have known that!  I Will give it a try, thanks again.

Edited October 22, 2020 by hardpan1
spelling

[Howard_Jones]

I was a Krank dealer, and i have a few of the RAGE models in my arsenal, and the actual head you see here is for a 2. driver to my own bag as a "worm burner" when its hot and dry in Murcia Spain (or windy). Its paired with a PX 8A4 7.0 flex shaft, playing only 44 1/8", so its a "play club" and "fairway finder", not a Long driver club. I still play the RAGE wood series and have them as 3W/15* - 5/18* and 7/23* so yes i know a few things about the Krank Rage series :-.)

From my work shop - Krank Rage head covers .
 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[extrastiff]

What is the thought on buying my gamer shaft (la golf trono 65 tx), and extending it 2 inches? 
 

how would that compare to one of the suggested long drive shafts in theory

Edited November 5, 2020 by extrastiff

[Stuart_G]

45 minutes ago, extrastiff said:

What is the thought on buying my gamer shaft (la golf trono 65 tx), and extending it 2 inches? 
 

how would that compare to one of the suggested long drive shafts in theory

 

Opinions vary on how much it's safe to extend the shaft.   Some will argue 2" is ok, others will argue that it's too much.   IMO it will largely depend on 1) the quality of the extension and how good a fit 2) the quality of the installation job and 3) how fast the swing speed or aggressive the transition.   The fact that you're playing a TX flex shaft makes 2" questionable, I certainly wouldn't go any more than 2".    Of course you could always give it a try and if it doesn't work well then cut down the length of the extension to 1.5" or 1".    Just realize that it can be a PITA to safely remove an extension from a graphite shaft.

 

 

[extrastiff]

2 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Opinions vary on how much it's safe to extend the shaft.   Some will argue 2" is ok, others will argue that it's too much.   IMO it will largely depend on 1) the quality of the extension and how good a fit 2) the quality of the installation job and 3) how fast the swing speed or aggressive the transition.   The fact that you're playing a TX flex shaft makes 2" questionable, I certainly wouldn't go any more than 2".    Of course you could always give it a try and if it doesn't work well then cut down the length of the extension to 1.5" or 1".    Just realize that it can be a PITA to safely remove an extension from a graphite shaft.

 

 

So my two options, which would you pick. 
 (Right now my gamer is tipped 1.5 inches)

1.tip the shaft 1 inch, and add 1.5-2 inch extension

2. do not tip the shaft, only have to add .75-1 inch extension. 
 

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, extrastiff said:

So my two options, which would you pick. 
 (Right now my gamer is tipped 1.5 inches)

1.tip the shaft 1 inch, and add 1.5-2 inch extension

2. do not tip the shaft, only have to add .75-1 inch extension. 
 

 

 

That's not an easy question to answer.  Ideally the decision should be made in this order:

1) length

2) shaft weight

3) swing weight / head weight

4) tipping.

 

And how well you can handle the longer lengths (and therefore which length will be better) is something that can only be determined through trial and error testing at those longer lengths.

 

What's the current playing length of your gamer?  

How much head weight are you able to remove as you go longer?

 

Changing the tipping is really a matter of how the head weight can or will change, not length directly.  The relationship with length is indirect but not exact or one that can be accurately calculated.  When going to a different playing length (either longer or shorter), one really needs to refit for head weight.  The general rules of how swing weight change are not an accurate or reliable way to judge what head weight you'll need so really shouldn't be used.

 

Also might want to consider that going that much longer may mean a slightly lighter shaft weight might be a better fit than the current shaft weight.

 

If you are considering a new shaft, why are you thinking about using an extension?   Most new wood shafts uncut are 46" so will be able to get to a playing length of 47.75" for most heads without needing an extension.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Stuart_G

[extrastiff]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's not an easy question to answer.  Ideally the decision should be made in this order:

1) length

2) shaft weight

3) swing weight / head weight

4) tipping.

 

And how well you can handle the longer lengths (and therefore which length will be better) is something that can only be determined through trial and error testing at those longer lengths.

 

What's the current playing length of your gamer?  

How much head weight are you able to remove as you go longer?

 

Changing the tipping is really a matter of how the head weight can or will change, not length directly.  The relationship with length is indirect but not exact or one that can be accurately calculated.  When going to a different playing length (either longer or shorter), one really needs to refit for head weight.  The general rules of how swing weight change are not an accurate or reliable way to judge what head weight you'll need so really shouldn't be used.

 

Also might want to consider that going that much longer may mean a slightly lighter shaft weight might be a better fit than the current shaft weight.

 

If you are considering a new shaft, why are you thinking about using an extension?   Most new wood shafts uncut are 46" so will be able to get to a playing length of 47.75" for most heads without needing an extension.

Ordered an m1 driver so can removed up to 20 ish grams. Figured I’d build to 48 with that head and see if I could swing it. Shorten from there as needed. 
 

current game 45.75. 
tipped the la trono shaft 1.5 inches, no butt trim. 45.75 was as long as it came out to. Figured untipped, looking at 47.25 max. 
 

I think I would be able to handle the 65TX,But I definitely considered that lighter would be nice. Any ideas? I don’t know of any shafts that stiff. And the pros are using long versions of gamers

Edited November 5, 2020 by extrastiff

[Stuart_G]

32 minutes ago, extrastiff said:

Ordered an m1 driver so can removed up to 20 ish grams. Figured I’d build to 48 with that head and see if I could swing it. Shorten from there as needed. 
 

current game 45.75. 
tipped the la trono shaft 1.5 inches, no butt trim. 45.75 was as long as it came out to. Figured untipped, looking at 47.25 max. 
 

I think I would be able to handle the 65TX,But I definitely considered that lighter would be nice. Any ideas? I don’t know of any shafts that stiff. And the pros are using long versions of gamers

 

Sorry, no.  You're right that there is not a lot of super tip stiff shafts under 60 gm.   You may very well be fine with the 65.  It's only a rough generalization anyways.

 

The general rule is to tip 1/2" less for each 10 gm removed.  So I might recommend as a first take to tip 1/2" or maybe even 3/4",  drop all the weight you can (just as a starting point) and  you'd only need something close to a 3/4 to 1.0" extension to get you to 48".   And you shouldn't have any problem with that small an extension.   From there you can dial in the length (choking up) and head weight (with lead tape).  And when you've got those two taken care of,  you can judge if any additional tipping might be needed by feel.     

 

Although on second thought, it might be better to start with a longer than needed extension (maybe 1.5") since you can't really add an extension to an extension if after you dial in the head weight, you find you want to tip it more but keep the same length.

[Fairway14]

On 10/17/2020 at 4:35 PM, DArnie said:

What's the approximate distance gains from a standard length driver? AnyTrackman info? Would be interesting to see!

 

20 years ago I played a 48" driver for about 50 rounds of golf. Distance gains (compared to a 45" driver) were tremendous, 25-30 yards average.

However, to make the 48" driver produce great tee shots I grooved a swing which worked well for that shaft length, but was not good for the other clubs within the bag. So, transitioning from driver to the second shot became especially challenging, and that is why I stopped playing the extra long driver.

[DArnie]

Thanks! Gonna be interesting at the Masters as it seems more players will be trying the longer drivers. 

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, DArnie said:

Thanks! Gonna be interesting at the Masters as it seems more players will be trying the longer drivers. 

 

The down side to the extra long shaft drivers is that producing good shots from one  requires grooving a unique swing, one which is significantly different from the other clubs within the bag.

And the opposite is true for shorter shaft length drivers. For example, playing a driver at 44" makes transitioning to other clubs within the bag easier than if one is playing a 45" driver. Also, one of the reasons some players favor 3-wood off lots of tee boxes is because committing to that strategy helps the swing needed for all the other clubs within the bag.

[extrastiff]

48 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The down side to the extra long shaft drivers is that producing good shots from one  requires grooving a unique swing, one which is significantly different from the other clubs within the bag.

And the opposite is true for shorter shaft length drivers. For example, playing a driver at 44" makes transitioning to other clubs within the bag easier than if one is playing a 45" driver. Also, one of the reasons some players favor 3-wood off lots of tee boxes is because committing to that strategy helps the swing needed for all the other clubs within the bag.

I don’t find this to be true for my swing, i’m sure video will tell a different story but as far as feels for me, I feel the same swinging my 45.75 driver as I do a 44. I’ll let u kno if the 48 feels like a whole new swing but when I swing a kids club it’s still the same swing. Just diff setup. 
 

That’s not your point, you say. Ok, to your point, the mishits on a driver swing at that speed (for the guys and girls who can swing consistently the same speed almost every time) still carry most hazards intended for a specific hole by the golf course architects

Edited November 5, 2020 by extrastiff

[Stuart_G]

21 hours ago, extrastiff said:

I think I would be able to handle the 65TX,But I definitely considered that lighter would be nice. Any ideas? I don’t know of any shafts that stiff. And the pros are using long versions of gamers

 

I've not hit it (only the blue and it was a little stiff for me) but Golfworks is having a sale on the 58 gm Rogue Elite green X-stiff.  Looks like it would be a cheap experiment.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/aldila-rogue-elite-green-graphite-wood-shafts/p/al0063/

 

[extrastiff]

3 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I've not hit it (only the blue and it was a little stiff for me) but Golfworks is having a sale on the 58 gm Rogue Elite green X-stiff.  Looks like it would be a cheap experiment.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/aldila-rogue-elite-green-graphite-wood-shafts/p/al0063/

 

That’s clutch, nice find.

[Ri_Redneck]

I tried the long driver thing a couple of years ago and it was okay. I used weight distribution to get the SW right. However, it still felt cumbersome. I am thinking I should try working on the total weight until I get the right feel, then MOI matching the long driver to my current 44.5" driver. Curious to see how it works out.

 

BT

[vadersfather]

Small update, so after a ton of range time with this setup, ( 49 gram matrix extended/ m1 head minus both weights) I decided to try the jetspeed head again, even though I couldn't weild it at first. The reason is simple, imo, the jetspeed is the best feeling head I have ever used and sound/ performance, the whole package. So, after switching to it, and even though it's at e5.5 swing weight, I'm now bombing this thing 💯 I feel like I'm swinging even easier with it, but it's just filthy. Strangely, with the higher swingweight my center contact is even better, IDK?? Shrug🙂🙃🙂✌️✌️

[ALIF]

47 minutes ago, vadersfather said:

Small update, so after a ton of range time with this setup, ( 49 gram matrix extended/ m1 head minus both weights) I decided to try the jetspeed head again, even though I couldn't weild it at first. The reason is simple, imo, the jetspeed is the best feeling head I have ever used and sound/ performance, the whole package. So, after switching to it, and even though it's at e5.5 swing weight, I'm now bombing this thing 💯 I feel like I'm swinging even easier with it, but it's just filthy. Strangely, with the higher swingweight my center contact is even better, IDK?? Shrug🙂🙃🙂✌️✌️

Darn you! Now I’m super curious. I am going to have to try this!

[vadersfather]

4 hours ago, ALIF said:

Darn you! Now I’m super curious. I am going to have to try this!

Ya man, why not✌️. The assumption is that shorter is better for more consistent contact, and for the majority, that may be true. But for some of us, for other reasons, longer has proven to be much much better. Could be because of injury ( I have 35 year's of heavy construction as my career, and thus, damage to my body, my left hand( I'm left handed) and to my right shoulder.) Or some swings are to upright, IDK. But change is always a good thing even if it doesn't work out. But, if you assume it won't work out or help and don't bother to try at all, well, then you have potentially denied yourself success!!✌️✌️

[ALIF]

So when the G425 LST comes out on the fitting cart I’m going for a fitting. I want to hit the 10.5° turned up to 12° with the ping tour shaft in the extra stiff version like I play now but at 48 inch playing length. I think it should be a monster!

[golf9596]

I’m putting together a G410 LST with a Hazdus yellow (counter balance shaft). The shaft is 46” and will play 47.5”. I played a 48” TS2 and on quality strikes was 20 yards longer than my 45” LST. I’m going to have to work on the timing and improve my smash.  I will say I was able to keep the ball in play even with some questionable strikes.  Looking forward to putting the LST at 47.5 into play this weekend..

[Therty]

I put a 44g graffaloy prolaunch blue in my callaway rogue.... the butt broke in my hands on the 10th hole today. Short lived experiment. Didn’t hit the ground or anything, it was actually a great strike.

 

playing the full 48”, i took the 5g weight out of the head it it was SW at about D5. no issues with strike. Much higher ball flight than my normal gamer, but it was very very windy today so hard to quantify if I gained length.