Basic swing help

[TPowell]

I've played a lot of sports with good success including golf for a while but I've always been very unorthodox style wise. I'm trying to be more technical swing wise as I really struggle otherwise when I don't get to play multiple times a week. I worked with a good instructor locally for about a year and made good progress but I don't really want to make the drive there and spend the money on many more lessons. I'm just curious what people think so far. Below are some of the issues I've had and corrected (partly) and the videos are all with a PW or so. The DTL view was a flush PW right at the target and the side view was fat and pulled which was fairly unusual for me for a miss. 

 

1. Very shut club face at the top which led to me "saving it" at the bottom with a ton of shaft lean that led to big issues hitting anything but low and weak slices with longer clubs

2. After correcting the shut club face, I couldn't release the club properly still so I had many of the same issues

3. I'm very quick at the top typically especially with my arms/shoulders.

 

EDIT: I'm working on getting the videos uploaded to a host site as well. 

 

 

Video.mov

Video (1).mov

Edited October 19, 2020 by TPowell

[Valtiel]

Definitely some unusual things going on there for sure, but I can see why you've had success in other sports given how much you can move your body. The problem in this case is, that is a LOT of rotation, especially for a wedge. You have a massive hip and shoulder turn that would be considered overkill even for a driver, let alone a shorter club. This is also causing what looks like a pretty severe reverse pivot in that your head is actually moving forwards towards the target and all that rotation is actually crossing over to pulling you forward, which is only going to make things that much harder for the longer clubs and fits perfectly with your mentioned struggle with low, weak slices. Your poor head and neck are twisted 45* in response to all this, which is a good barometer for too much rotation in your body. If you can't keep your head facing the ball with a wedge, you know you're turning way too far. 

Everything in this action requires "less". Less hip turn, less shoulder turn, less weight going forward. Your stance is narrow, even a bit for a wedge, but FAR too narrow for that much rotation, so you're always going to be playing the game of "saving it" from there as you mentioned. You do take the club back inside and get a little shut at the top and steep coming down, but those are fairly minor compared to the rotation stuff. Your backswing also gets to parallel, which is again quite long for a short iron. Here is a picture example:



Flipped Rory with a wedge on the right. You can see his shoulders are right about 90* with less than half that in hip rotation. Head is pointing straight down and his weight/center of gravity is slightly back with a stable base. On your side, you have more shoulder and hip rotation than DJ has with his driver, and your center of gravity has fallen way forward. The fact that you can make decent contact from this position is a testament to a decent amount of athleticism and coordination, and the biggest concern here is that normally these sorts of "faults" are the least present in shorter clubs and get worse as the club gets longer, although I can't imagine you're able to turn much more than this, haha. If you could post a wood/driver swing that would be very interesting to see. In the meantime, I would strive for a much more neutral and balanced position with easily 50% less hip and shoulder turn and focus on staying much more centered over the ball with your short irons. This will probably feel pretty weird if you have always swung this way, but all of this movement is definitely going to hold you back. Best of luck!  

Edited October 20, 2020 by Valtiel

[TPowell]

On 10/20/2020 at 2:01 AM, Valtiel said:

Definitely some unusual things going on there for sure, but I can see why you've had success in other sports given how much you can move your body. The problem in this case is, that is a LOT of rotation, especially for a wedge. You have a massive hip and shoulder turn that would be considered overkill even for a driver, let alone a shorter club. This is also causing what looks like a pretty severe reverse pivot in that your head is actually moving forwards towards the target and all that rotation is actually crossing over to pulling you forward, which is only going to make things that much harder for the longer clubs and fits perfectly with your mentioned struggle with low, weak slices. Your poor head and neck are twisted 45* in response to all this, which is a good barometer for too much rotation in your body. If you can't keep your head facing the ball with a wedge, you know you're turning way too far. 

Everything in this action requires "less". Less hip turn, less shoulder turn, less weight going forward. Your stance is narrow, even a bit for a wedge, but FAR too narrow for that much rotation, so you're always going to be playing the game of "saving it" from there as you mentioned. You do take the club back inside and get a little shut at the top and steep coming down, but those are fairly minor compared to the rotation stuff. Your backswing also gets to parallel, which is again quite long for a short iron. Here is a picture example:



Flipped Rory with a wedge on the right. You can see his shoulders are right about 90* with less than half that in hip rotation. Head is pointing straight down and his weight/center of gravity is slightly back with a stable base. On your side, you have more shoulder and hip rotation than DJ has with his driver, and your center of gravity has fallen way forward. The fact that you can make decent contact from this position is a testament to a decent amount of athleticism and coordination, and the biggest concern here is that normally these sorts of "faults" are the least present in shorter clubs and get worse as the club gets longer, although I can't imagine you're able to turn much more than this, haha. If you could post a wood/driver swing that would be very interesting to see. In the meantime, I would strive for a much more neutral and balanced position with easily 50% less hip and shoulder turn and focus on staying much more centered over the ball with your short irons. This will probably feel pretty weird if you have always swung this way, but all of this movement is definitely going to hold you back. Best of luck!  

 

I actually haven't lol. I'm trying to come more from the inside and one of the things I heard was making a bigger backswing with depth and then trying to stay more closed at the top of the downswing shoulders/hips wise. I would definitely be more like Rory typically. I'll definitely try going back to more of a normal turn and spreading my feet a bit. I feel like the longer swing resulted in less misses to the left for me (slices) but it also COULD be me staying more closed on the way down. Care to comment on my order of changes needed? Thanks for the help.

 

1. Get swing back on track turn wise

2. Keep forehead pointing at the ball the entire swing (looks like a good visual cue from the image you posted)

2. Spread feet out a bit more and work on taking the club back less inside

 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, TPowell said:

 

I actually haven't lol. I'm trying to come more from the inside and one of the things I heard was making a bigger backswing with depth and then trying to stay more closed at the top of the downswing shoulders/hips wise. I would definitely be more like Rory typically. I'll definitely try going back to more of a normal turn and spreading my feet a bit. I feel like the longer swing resulted in less misses to the left for me (slices) but it also COULD be me staying more closed on the way down. Care to comment on my order of changes needed? Thanks for the help.

 

1. Get swing back on track turn wise

2. Keep forehead pointing at the ball the entire swing (looks like a good visual cue from the image you posted)

2. Spread feet out a bit more and work on taking the club back less inside

 

I would say that is a good start, I would just reword a few things (see below). The concept of taking a bigger backswing to help come from the inside is normally reserved for people that struggle with too little rotation and tend to just pick their arms up instead of turning their shoulders. Keeping your hips "closed" is also exactly what you DON'T want. In order to correctly shallow and come into the ball on plane and more neutral or from the inside, you need the space in the downswing and the correct position at the top. Space in the downswing is created by the clearing of the hips, a move which when executed first in transition allows the hands to fall down into the slot as opposed coming out in front and over the top.  The correct position at the top is something usually neutral enough to not require a massive reroute to get on plane. 

The first thing to focus on after reining in your excessive rotation is that transition order. Your hands and arms are initiating the transition instead of your lower body and they are moving WAY faster than your hips, both things that will virtually guarantee a steeper, over the top move and basically make it impossible to shallow and come from the inside, if that is your goal. Even on a shorter wedge swing, the hips still need to lead and pull the arms behind them, just in a more subtle way than with the longer clubs. So throw out the idea of more shoulder rotation and keeping your hips closed in any capacity, the first does not apply to you and the second is just wrong. 

1) Reduce shoulder rotation to no more than 90* and hip rotation no more than 45*. This will take care of the issues with your head and neck which you do NOT want to focus on doing anything with, but rather fixing the excessive rotation causing the head and neck movement in the first place. 
2) Initiate your downswing move with lower body rotation instead of hand speed. This will naturally shallow the club. Just make sure your weight isn't tilting in the wrong direction at the top (forward) as that lower body transition move requires the foundation of your weight being slightly back, not forward, which allow the downswing lower body move to also shift your weight to your front leg. 

[TPowell]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I would say that is a good start, I would just reword a few things (see below). The concept of taking a bigger backswing to help come from the inside is normally reserved for people that struggle with too little rotation and tend to just pick their arms up instead of turning their shoulders. Keeping your hips "closed" is also exactly what you DON'T want. In order to correctly shallow and come into the ball on plane and more neutral or from the inside, you need the space in the downswing and the correct position at the top. Space in the downswing is created by the clearing of the hips, a move which when executed first in transition allows the hands to fall down into the slot as opposed coming out in front and over the top.  The correct position at the top is something usually neutral enough to not require a massive reroute to get on plane. 

The first thing to focus on after reining in your excessive rotation is that transition order. Your hands and arms are initiating the transition instead of your lower body and they are moving WAY faster than your hips, both things that will virtually guarantee a steeper, over the top move and basically make it impossible to shallow and come from the inside, if that is your goal. Even on a shorter wedge swing, the hips still need to lead and pull the arms behind them, just in a more subtle way than with the longer clubs. So throw out the idea of more shoulder rotation and keeping your hips closed in any capacity, the first does not apply to you and the second is just wrong. 

1) Reduce shoulder rotation to no more than 90* and hip rotation no more than 45*. This will take care of the issues with your head and neck which you do NOT want to focus on doing anything with, but rather fixing the excessive rotation causing the head and neck movement in the first place. 
2) Initiate your downswing move with lower body rotation instead of hand speed. This will naturally shallow the club. Just make sure your weight isn't tilting in the wrong direction at the top (forward) as that lower body transition move requires the foundation of your weight being slightly back, not forward, which allow the downswing lower body move to also shift your weight to your front leg. 

 

Thanks. I should have worded that a bit better. I always used to think leading with my hips resulted in hitting slices but that seems to be more of a path thing (shoulders vs hips moving from the top first). When I focus on rotating my lower body at the top first, my weight still needs to be fairly equal/slightly back to avoid getting out in front. That makes sense. I'll definitely try it out tomorrow. 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, TPowell said:

 

Thanks. I should have worded that a bit better. I always used to think leading with my hips resulted in hitting slices but that seems to be more of a path thing (shoulders vs hips moving from the top first). When I focus on rotating my lower body at the top first, my weight still needs to be fairly equal/slightly back to avoid getting out in front. That makes sense. I'll definitely try it out tomorrow. 

Leading with the hips can definitely result in slices if you do it incorrectly, the most common mistake being too much sliding instead of rotating. Watch this one closely for the most clear example of how to do it correctly:
 

Pay close attention in transition from 0:11 to 0:15 and note how much faster his hips are traveling over his hands. They are completely cleared and almost pointing towards the target by the time the club is parallel to the ground. That is ~130+ degrees of hip rotation in the time it took his hands to get only halfway to the ball from the top of the swing. Also if you watch the hands starting at 0:11 when the hips go, they drop virtually straight down before the torque from the lower body pulls them around at 0:14. This is one of the best examples of "the body swinging the arms". Everyone's swing is different and most pros have less rotation and/or slower hips than DJ, but the order in which the body moves at that level is basically constant. 

If we compare this to your motion, it's basically the reverse (that is why they are the pros and we are not, heh). Your arms come down significantly faster than your hips are rotating, practically beating them to the ball. This is that "very quick at the top" feeling you described and it is impossible to shallow the club this way. The first things your hands do is come straight towards the ball from the top, which is the only place they really CAN go when they pull a Greedo and fire first. 😅

Here is another great example with more relatable body movements:
 

You can see super clearly there at 3:06 that his left hip really sort of "snaps" and triggers the whole downswing sequence. You can see that force easily on the pants inside his left thigh which go from stretched to laid down in an instant as his left hip fires to start the downswing. His left hip there is doing what your arms are doing from the top, and its all about flipping that script. It can help to exaggerate that move as well by getting to the top of your swing and literally doing nothing with your hands/arms in transition, just let them fall and allow the rotation of your lower body to swing the club. I do this as my practice swing drill before every shot just to make sure to keep that feeling. 

[TPowell]

On 10/22/2020 at 3:31 AM, Valtiel said:

Leading with the hips can definitely result in slices if you do it incorrectly, the most common mistake being too much sliding instead of rotating. Watch this one closely for the most clear example of how to do it correctly:
 

Pay close attention in transition from 0:11 to 0:15 and note how much faster his hips are traveling over his hands. They are completely cleared and almost pointing towards the target by the time the club is parallel to the ground. That is ~130+ degrees of hip rotation in the time it took his hands to get only halfway to the ball from the top of the swing. Also if you watch the hands starting at 0:11 when the hips go, they drop virtually straight down before the torque from the lower body pulls them around at 0:14. This is one of the best examples of "the body swinging the arms". Everyone's swing is different and most pros have less rotation and/or slower hips than DJ, but the order in which the body moves at that level is basically constant. 

If we compare this to your motion, it's basically the reverse (that is why they are the pros and we are not, heh). Your arms come down significantly faster than your hips are rotating, practically beating them to the ball. This is that "very quick at the top" feeling you described and it is impossible to shallow the club this way. The first things your hands do is come straight towards the ball from the top, which is the only place they really CAN go when they pull a Greedo and fire first. 😅

Here is another great example with more relatable body movements:
 

You can see super clearly there at 3:06 that his left hip really sort of "snaps" and triggers the whole downswing sequence. You can see that force easily on the pants inside his left thigh which go from stretched to laid down in an instant as his left hip fires to start the downswing. His left hip there is doing what your arms are doing from the top, and its all about flipping that script. It can help to exaggerate that move as well by getting to the top of your swing and literally doing nothing with your hands/arms in transition, just let them fall and allow the rotation of your lower body to swing the club. I do this as my practice swing drill before every shot just to make sure to keep that feeling. 

 

 

Worked on this yesterday and I tried to always keep that feeling of limp arms/hands and turning the hips to pull them down. Noticed at the very end of the session I was hitting it left (blocks and cuts at times) due to my head racing with my hips instead of staying back with my arms. That seemed to make a difference. I'm so upset that weather is starting to turn cold here. I have the itch to play golf so bad! 

[chipa]

With good mechanics the the upper and lower body can work together with no need for timing, this is how pros swing - the faster they move their body the faster they swing their club.

 

The problem is most amateurs myself included (a lot of the time) swing the club very differently than good players and since we have very little "connected" in the swing we feel that the pros just must have superhuman timing ability, but the reality is they have a biomechanically connected swing that is hardly dependent on timing.

 

A connected swing has both arms working together and they feel somewhat mechanically restrained to a certain path so the release feels like the arms and hands are one unit. Furthermore, the lower body movement is generally not something that is thought about, it is a function of the distance we want to hit the club. 

 

Understanding that muscles work by pulling is important, and classic swing teaching has long taught the golf swing is a puling motion to start. Bobby Jones is a good example. Reach the left hand and arm away from the target and pull down to start and if the right hand grip is correct(it never pulls only supports the weight of the club) there is a good chance with practice it will get in the correct position for a powerful late hit.

 

A good way to practice to feel the release of the hands and arms are short swings with the legs close together. More advanced is doing it kneeling even sitting to ensure we are not using the lower body to square the clubface. When the correct hand and arm mechanics are learned then the lower body can be used to generate as much velocity our body is capable without having to worry about timing.

[TPowell]

Something I noticed yesterday is I hit massive pulls when I tried to turn my hips aggressively from the top and keep my shoulders back. I think in slow motion swings it seems like if I make a good lower body turn on the downswing and hold my shoulders back a bit, it can lead to me hitting bigger pulls than normal if I dont hold my shoulders back and let them naturally drop by the force of my lower body if that makes sense.

 

I definitely get that once I ingrain using my lower body to power my upper body down, I’ll be much more consistent and timing based. Its just slow going for me so far unfortunately. Like I mentioned, I feel like I made progress but it led to bigger pulls with short clubs even due to me not manipulating my arms down immediately. 

[Fairway14]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:15 PM, TPowell said:

Something I noticed yesterday is I hit massive pulls when I tried to turn my hips aggressively from the top and keep my shoulders back. I think in slow motion swings it seems like if I make a good lower body turn on the downswing and hold my shoulders back a bit, it can lead to me hitting bigger pulls than normal if I dont hold my shoulders back and let them naturally drop by the force of my lower body if that makes sense.

 

I definitely get that once I ingrain using my lower body to power my upper body down, I’ll be much more consistent and timing based. Its just slow going for me so far unfortunately. Like I mentioned, I feel like I made progress but it led to bigger pulls with short clubs even due to me not manipulating my arms down immediately. 

 

You are thinking way too much about in swing club and body positions.

The foundation for a consistently repeatable and effective swing is address technique. Jack Nicklaus "Golf My Way" or Tiger Woods "How I play Golf" are both great books that provide detailed instruction/photographs of grip-posture-alignment. These three address technique fundamentals create-promote a beautiful effective swing, without having to ever "think about" anything during the swing itself.