Back to basics... the takeaway

[FormerBigDaddy]

It's been a frustrating year for me.  I've beat my personal best scores twice this year (was 85) with scores of 81 and 78.  In both cases, I posted scores of near 100 in the following couple of rounds.  I'm convinced that both those low rounds were complete flukes.  I've practiced more in the last 2 years than I have the last 20 years.  Yes, my short game and putting is better.  But I'm constantly battling my swing... at times I feel like i literally have the takeaway yips.   

 

At times I've been completely sold on turning the shoulders at a 90* angle to the spine and not really thinking about anything else.  Sort of letting the momentum of that turn swing my arms the way they want in relation to the turn.  Sounds great on paper, but no matter what I do, I lose the feeling of the correct angle to turn on.  On the range I can groove it, and there have obviously been some days where that's worked for me on the course. But more often than not, when playing real golf and hitting different clubs, I lose the correct turn and end up being too flat or then too steep and then the ball going everywhere.  

 

Then you read and watch the arm swing illusion, and the turn seems flatter and the arms extend more away/up from the body and that seems COMPLETELY different than the method above.  Turn and the arms work up and down... right... There are times when this method results in some of the best shots I've ever hit.  Long and straight.  With this I find it hard on my shorter clubs and short game.  Where as just turning on the correct angle works wonders in that area. Trying to do two things at once is pretty tough... 

 

Then I go down the rabbit hole of wrist hinge.  That faldo drill seems awesome at times.... works wonders.  Not too bad in the short game area but a disaster with longer clubs especially woods and driver.  Then I dive further down the hole of left wrist up, like a hammer, right wrist back... etc. etc.  Should it be that hard?  Shoulder the wrists work correctly if other things are working correctly?

 

Then you see some videos of how the takeaway should be a blend of a turn, lift, and wrist hinge.  Bro that's 3 things a once.  I can do it when looking in a mirror, but not when I'm looking at the ball.  Too many movements to try to coordinate?

 

I am just lost and constantly going back and forth... I seem to always come back to turning the shoulders on the correct angle and forgetting the rest. In theory the arms and wrists should work correctly if you turn correctly to start?  

 

And yes.. I've had lessons... from 2 different pros... and neither could really give me good feedback on what I should focus on early in the swing.  Can't afford more at the moment.

 

Help?!?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by FormerBigDaddy

[chippa13]

Put all your change in your left pocket.

[FormerBigDaddy]

27 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Put all your change in your left pocket.

That’s about on par with a Facebook group reply. Thanks 

[scooterhd2]

Moe Norman coin drill.

 

Or throw the club drill.

 

They work wonders very quickly on the initial takeaway. Very much the same feel as the NT in NTC drill. 

[glk]

Really simple explanation and drill with feel - right arm on top of left.      Todd has a lot of good stuff on his IG concerning backswing and transition.   Give it a look.

 

[Jim Waldron]

It is indeed a blend of several components....not just one thing.

 

1. left side bend. 2. rotation of hips, core and chest. 3. wrist hinge. 4. wrist c0ck.

5. very slight arm push away on 45 angle to right of rotating shoulder girdle.

 

Blend all 4 properly and you are gold....

 

Slow mo in a mirror practice is key.  

 

And learning how to focus an awake mind in feel sense so you can sense the distinction between correct movement and incorrect as well.

[Mcgeeno]

I hinge early and try not to over analyze anything else. My goal is essentially to have minimal forearm roll or face rotation in the overall golf swing. I hit it more consistent and make center contact more often this way. 

 

I've gotten brain fried and played terrible golf if I try to break it down too much and stress about hitting positions perfectly, or where the wrist is at a certain point or where the club face is aimed at a certain part of my swing.  Watching 15 different youtubers try to explain the perfect takeaway concepts etc didnt help me much.

 

My simplified routine and check points are that I make sure I'm not whipping the club inside, I "break" my back wrist early (I guess like the Faldo preset or 4 magic moves?) and off I go.

 

Recording your move and doing slow reps with a mirror is about the best thing you could do to see where you are at. 

[golfsticks]

2 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Then you see some videos of how the takeaway should be a blend of a turn, lift, and wrist hinge.  Bro that's 3 things a once. 

 

Help?!?

 

 

You are making things more complicated than they are.  A blend of turn, lift, and wrist hinge is not 3 things at once- it is one motion having one or more components.     Would you have difficulty turning, lifting, while using wrist supports putting a carry on in a plane's overhead compartment. 

[naval2006]

1 hour ago, Jim Waldron said:

And learning how to focus an awake mind in feel sense so you can sense the distinction between correct movement and incorrect as well.

This is the one of the main survival skills for a round of golf, especially one starting to go sour. Great as usual, Jim

[FormerBigDaddy]

41 minutes ago, golfsticks said:

 

You are making things more complicated than they are.  A blend of turn, lift, and wrist hinge is not 3 things at once- it is one motion having one or more components.     Would you have difficulty turning, lifting, while using wrist supports putting a carry on in a plane's overhead compartment. 

The only way it’s not 3 things at once is if one or 2 of those things happen in reaction to each other. Meaning they happen unconsciously. 
 

I think I’m one of those that have taken the one piece takeaway way to literally for a long time. Restricting arm lift and hinge. 
 

Problem is that reintroducing those things feels very difficult to time correctly and make repeatable. Which bring me back to the original question. If the takeaway needs to include some lift and hinge along with the turn... when do those things happen? Right at the start? Or start in “one piece” and begin lifting and hinging... when?

[golfsticks]

It's not really a lift, although it can be with still providing a good platform at the top.    All start happening right at the start, and in one piece if you can do that, but is not absolutely necessary to play well.    You have a choice on what starts:  hands, torso, or hips. 

 

 

[chippa13]

This is the beauty of the MDLT method. All I think about for the takeaway is that I don't. My intention is to use my hands to bring the clubhead over my trail shoulder. The body figures out how to do it.

[Jifmoli]

Ah yes, the takeaway... been my issue for ages and still is. Have been improving lately once I realised that I should keep the club face closed in the first part of the takeaway. I tended to open it and c0ck my wrist early as well.

 

But...the one piece, stay connected, don't c0ck your wrist just yet, keep your hand straight has messed it up for me as well. In an attempt to do all that and not swing too fast I have lost all sense of where my arms and the club are, how I am rotating my body and that then continues in my downswing. Luck of the draw really where I end up but one thing I do too often is sway. I don't rotate enough around my sternum.

 

So yesterday I played a 9-hole mini-competition (called the Chook run) and my first swing felt so disconnected. Would have killed every dog in the ball's path, as it didn't get above 1 yard. Second drive went high and left and nearly OB. That was enough: I need a compacter swing where I don't have too much to think about. So I did 2 things:  cocked my wrist much earlier than what I have been doing lately (but start with face closed) and upped my tempo quite a bit so I don't have time to think/correct/sway. When I try to swing too easy and try to get that wide swing, I have a lot of opportunity to add mistakes along the way. Made my swing much more compact. Did bring a bit of slice in it again on the first attempt (went in the rough) but corrected that with stronger grip. Did not miss another fairway.

 

Will do that at tomorrow's Saturday comp. Dropped my loft as this new swing really made the ball flight high.

 

Anyway, good luck getting your swing together again.

[golfarb1]

ALA Greg Norman

RPB= Right pocket back

+maintain triangle of arms for as long as possible

[FormerBigDaddy]

10 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

ALA Greg Norman

RPB= Right pocket back

+maintain triangle of arms for as long as possible

 

This is the sort of stuff that has gotten me in trouble.  If you take those words literally, which i tend to do... the club comes inside if you don't lift. Those words say nothing about lifting! 

 

1:15 mark of monte's no turn cast video on youtube explains what i mean perfectly.  Unless I have an insanely steep turn, which I've tried, those words above and others describing the one piece takeaway have wasted years of my golfing life. They all leave out the part (I think) that the arms have to lift to keep the club in front of you.  Yes, those cue words you mentioned above may work for someone who lifts unconsciously, but I do not anymore bc of how literal I took it.  

[FormerBigDaddy]

16 hours ago, chippa13 said:

This is the beauty of the MDLT method. All I think about for the takeaway is that I don't. My intention is to use my hands to bring the clubhead over my trail shoulder. The body figures out how to do it.

Wish i would have seen this a long long time ago.  The feeling what the arms naturally do (that i've gotten away from) is beautifully explained in the Manuel De La Torre videos I just watched. Thank you for this.

 

Anyone who is feeling the way i was should stop now and watch this entire video.

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by FormerBigDaddy

[chippa13]

So now I think you understand that my "Put all your change in your left pocket" comment wasn't snark but a clue to get out of your head and stop making something so complicated out of something that isn't.

 

 

[Zitlow]

I don't see much if anything about the important part the forces of momentum and inertial play in the golf swing. Without getting into a discussion of the hows and whys, does this make sense? The club head has farther to travel (240*) so it needs to be accelerated right off the ball so it catches up with the other moving parts at the top. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

28 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

I don't see much if anything about the important part the forces of momentum and inertial play in the golf swing. Without getting into a discussion of the hows and whys, does this make sense? The club head has farther to travel (240*) so it needs to be accelerated right off the ball so it catches up with the other moving parts at the top. 

Keep going... some of the words you just used have been some I have been very curious about.

[Noodler]

1 hour ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

Keep going... some of the words you just used have been some I have been very curious about.

 

Considering that the MDLT info "spoke" to you, then what @Zitlow 's post starts getting at is the physics behind why it works.  That said, the takeaway is how you start your backswing... and what I realized this season is that the backswing is a "swing".  The backswing is not just "moving" the club into a high position in preparation for the downswing.  If you truly treat the backswing as a swing, then you're in a better place for good things to happen in the downswing because it becomes more of a "reflexive" response to a great backswing.

 

I hope these thoughts help you leave the internal body position cue "yips" behind you.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Noodler

[mikpga]

The shoulders turn in a circle, on a tilted plane...

[A.Princey]

Ymmv, but the Faldo drill and "staying connected with the arms at your core" has transformed my swing. It even works with Driver and longer clubs now. A lot of the success involved for me had to do with establishing the correct setup position for each club, as how to position the ball and the arms to create optimum impact. I use the "drill" on every swing I make on the course, with the exception of partial wedges and chips.

 

For me, with longer clubs it really took a lot of trial and error to get right. Standing slightly farther away from the ball and extending the lead arm at address more, towards the ball, helped with timing and release issues caused by the drill. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by A.Princey

[A.Princey]

12 hours ago, mikpga said:

The shoulders turn in a circle, on a tilted plane...

This is how I visualize it, shoulders rotating perfectly perpendicular to the spine axis on the way back. Also, I envision where the plane created by the clubhead on the way back is parallel to said shoulder plane as well. Then on the downswing, the shoulder plane steepens to include the ball, causing the trail arm to tuck perfectly into the trail side of the waist through to impact.

Edited October 24, 2020 by A.Princey

[mikpga]

Improving Back Swing

[FormerBigDaddy]

2 hours ago, A.Princey said:

This is how I visualize it, shoulders rotating perfectly perpendicular to the spine axis on the way back. Also, I envision where the plane created by the clubhead on the way back is parallel to said shoulder plane as well. Then on the downswing, the shoulder plane steepens to include the ball, causing the trail arm to tuck perfectly into the trail side of the waist through to impact.

Again, for me, just focusing on turning the shoulders on a tilted plane and or 90* to the spine has been an awful swing thought. I took those ideas too literally and restricted my arms early which brings the club inside and causes late lift and ott coming down. 
 

Monte recognizes that this type of swing tip can be dangerous to some and addresses it in the beginning of his no turn cast video. For me a better thought would be turn 90* to the spine and swing the arms to the top or lift hands over shoulder. 

[Zitlow]

The swing is a dynamic motion, why would anyone want to make their swing conform to the static address plane?

 

[golfarb1]

Former Big Daddy

 

Mr Norman’s  two suggestions helps eliminate  3 main areas of problems for golfers

1. Sway -via moving the trail hip outside the trail foot 

2.Opening the clubface early via rolling the forearms

3. Lack of width via bending the right arm too early

 

Any concept can and will be misinterpreted by a certain %of golfers. There is no  credible instructor , I repeat NO instructor who teaches a one piece takeaway- maintaining the triangle of the arms AND at the same time suggests that the golfer sucks everything inside - like Monte is demonstrating @ 1:15.

Mr Norman further clarified this by emphasizing the need for extension during the takeaway in another tip to avoid this possible problem.

 

The Faldo DRILL is not a miracle cure, but it does make the swing simpler by precocking the wrists and by pronating the left forearm  at setup and shallowing the shaft. 

But there are plenty of other areas in the swing that can go wrong.

[FormerBigDaddy]

54 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

Former Big Daddy

 

Mr Norman’s  two suggestions helps eliminate  3 main areas of problems for golfers

1. Sway -via moving the trail hip outside the trail foot 

2.Opening the clubface early via rolling the forearms

3. Lack of width via bending the right arm too early

 

Any concept can and will be misinterpreted by a certain %of golfers. There is no  credible instructor , I repeat NO instructor who teaches a one piece takeaway- maintaining the triangle of the arms AND at the same time suggests that the golfer sucks everything inside - like Monte is demonstrating @ 1:15.

Mr Norman further clarified this by emphasizing the need for extension during the takeaway in another tip to avoid this possible problem.

 

The Faldo DRILL is not a miracle cure, but it does make the swing simpler by precocking the wrists and by pronating the left forearm  at setup and shallowing the shaft. 

But there are plenty of other areas in the swing that can go wrong.

Its funny though... when you watch all these one piece takeaway videos online they all sound the same. Something like, “just rotate your torso/shoulders and arms in one piece, maintain the triangle.”  You never hear them say anything about extending arms away or any lifting. All this time I thought I was just turning too flat and really, it was just that I was restricting arm movement up/away. Like I said, I’ve even had about 10 lessons this year from 2 different pros that still didn’t explain the takeaway in a way I could understand. They both looked at me cross eyed almost. 
 

I see now that I just need to allow my arms to swing in reaction to the turn. If I do that they seem to extend and lift. 

[UCBananaboy]

1. Push ball back drill. Set a golf ball behind club and practice pushing it directly back on the target line.

 

2. Arms parallel, toe pointed up and shaft DTL. Clubhead outside my hands.

 

My feel is to have a slow initial 18-24" and then a relative speed up to the top. My preshot takeaway is similar to JT's, where I bring the club about half back and just make sure my arm is inside my clubhead.

[golfarb1]

UcBananaboy

instead  of a ball , try a 3 pack or even a box  of a dozen balls