WHS - confused by England Golf Course Handicap calculation

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, scott_Donald said:

Reading all this I am more confused than I was before the thread.

 

I am a member of a Scottish Club so been patiently waiting for November 1 to put in scores for handicap with WHS.

 

I am currently in Texas so all the scores will be Away scores. What I was told I just had to take a picture of the scorecard and email to the Secretary at the Club to get that to count towards WHS. I have not returned a score at all this year in Scotland.

 

Now I thought the whole point in WHS was that everyone round the world would have a comparable handicap, now I am reading that the UK will have a slightly different version, bizarre. 

 

Your handicap INDEX will be calculated the same way. So you index here in the States will be the same as your index in the U.K., Oz, France, wherever,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Your COURSE handicap WILL be different due to the different calculation BUT, except for a single stroke's rounding difference, which you've always had anyway, everybody else's CH in the comp will be different, higher or lower, by the exact same amount. So your competition will be unchanged.

 

 

[scott_Donald]

11 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Your handicap INDEX will be calculated the same way. So you index here in the States will be the same as your index in the U.K., Oz, France, wherever,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Your COURSE handicap WILL be different due to the different calculation BUT, except for a single stroke's rounding difference, which you've always had anyway, everybody else's CH in the comp will be different, higher or lower, by the exact same amount. So your competition will be unchanged.

 

 

 

Ok so my home course slope is 141(second back tee) and the two courses I play most here in Teas are 128(back tee) and 136(back tee).

 

How does that effect me playing in Scotland and Texas? My handicap comes out at 1.3 for every round I have played this year in the USA. 

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, scott_Donald said:

 

Ok so my home course slope is 141(second back tee) and the two courses I play most here in Teas are 128(back tee) and 136(back tee).

 

How does that effect me playing in Scotland and Texas? My handicap comes out at 1.3 for every round I have played this year in the USA. 

 

You didn't give the course rating or par, both of which is necessary.

 

So I plugged in 73 (CR) as a guess and also guessed at par 72. Your course handicap with those number would be 3 from those tees at that course.

 

Without the CR-PAR calc at the end you'd have been a 2. The formula is Index * slope / 113. In the U.S. you ADD the (Course Rating - PAR).  1.3 * 141 /113 = 1.62, rounded is 2 + (CR-PAR (1)) 2+1=3

 

So in the UK, at a course with the same numbers, you would be a 2 from those same "specs" as they do NOT do the (CR-PAR) calc.

 

However, EVERYBODY in the same comp in the UK (or here in the U.S. for that matter) gets the same CR-PAR calc (or not in the UK) so the difference between you and the next guy will be the same here and in the UK. Even Steven.

 

Here's the USGA calculator --->     https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

 

[scott_Donald]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You didn't give the course rating or par, both of which is necessary.

 

So I plugged in 73 (CR) as a guess and also guessed at par 72. Your course handicap with those number would be 3 from those tees at that course.

 

Without the CR-PAR calc at the end you'd have been a 2. The formula is Index * slope / 113. In the U.S. you ADD the (Course Rating - PAR).  1.3 * 141 /113 = 1.62, rounded is 2 + (CR-PAR (1)) 2+1=3

 

So in the UK, at a course with the same numbers, you would be a 2 from those same "specs" as they do NOT do the (CR-PAR) calc.

 

However, EVERYBODY in the same comp in the UK (or here in the U.S. for that matter) gets the same CR-PAR calc (or not in the UK) so the difference between you and the next guy will be the same here and in the UK. Even Steven.

 

Here's the USGA calculator --->     https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html

 

thanks.

 

Interesting.

 

this is the stuff we got sent from home course -

 

On 10/24/2020 at 8:27 AM, scott_Donald said:

I

 

[nsxguy]

1 minute ago, scott_Donald said:

thanks.

 

Interesting.

 

this is the stuff we got sent from home course -

 

 

Those charts are old (2015 if I'm reading them right) and are no longer correct. Your CH would be 4 (I'd plugged in a PAR of 72 but it's 71)

 

However, if everybody is playing the same tees the CR-PAR NOT included in those charts won't matter at all as the difference between any 2 players should be exactly the same as before.

 

I was going to add to my previous post but I'll add it here.

 

If you and a buddy are playing in the U.S., from the same tees, and your CH is 4 and your buddy's is 9 you're giving him 5.

 

If you both went to the UK and played a course with the same numbers, you would be a 2 and he would be a 7 - still 5 strokes. Same-same for everybody in the comp.

[DaveLeeNC]

Maybe I remember wrong here, but I believe that in places across the pond that are not using the CR-Par adjustment, that this also applies to NDB/ESC calculations. Further I think (am even less clear about this) that you use the CH (for ESC/NDB calculations) that applies to the course you are playing. So the correct handicap score calculations might be different for a UK golfer playing a course in Texas vs. playing one in Scotland. 

 

Is that right? 

 

dave

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, North Butte said:

You simply bought the marketing spiel from USGA and R&A. It was nonsense from the word Go and plenty of us said so at the time. I can't see how anyone who has played in USA and UK would have ever bought the idea that the handicap system changes would make one or the other *completely* change their golfing culture. Was never going to happen.

Well," plenty of you" were just plain wrong.

[ParHunter]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

What makes him a good GM if he cannot understand such a simple thing as playing handicap rounds from various tees? Just curious to understand the qualifications...

He turned around the course from having some shocking greens to having the best greens around. The course has improved so much since he took over!  The course is making money and it has a very solid membership. 
 

i reckon that makes him a good GM. 

[Newby]

7 hours ago, scott_Donald said:

 

 

Now I thought the whole point in WHS was that everyone round the world would have a comparable handicap, now I am reading that the UK will have a slightly different version, bizarre. 

If you had read the initial announcements you would have seen that a system that was exactly the same world wide was never the claim. In fact it was specifically denied.

A "comparable handicap" is what we will have - unless you can identify any significant differences.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Newby

[Newby]

6 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Maybe I remember wrong here, but I believe that in places across the pond that are not using the CR-Par adjustment, that this also applies to NDB/ESC calculations. Further I think (am even less clear about this) that you use the CH (for ESC/NDB calculations) that applies to the course you are playing. So the correct handicap score calculations might be different for a UK golfer playing a course in Texas vs. playing one in Scotland. 

 

Is that right? 

 

dave

No. The Score Differential formula (used to calculate a Handicap Index) is exactly the same.

 

SD = (113/slope) x (gross - CR - PCC)

(Gross adjusted for ndb)

Par is not involved.

[Deceptively Short]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, that 4-footer isn't technically (I think) a "gimme". A gimme is an automatically conceded stroke for a match, not an estimate for an incomplete hole for handicap purposes.

 

And forgive me for not remembering what kind of comps CONGU would or wouldn't take for handicaps but say my partner and I, in a best ball, are about 120 from the hole. I mishit my ball a bit and am on the front fringe about 35 feet away. My partner stiffs it to a foot for a kick-in birdie.

 

I pick up and we move on to the next tee. Under CONGU I'd be given a net double bogey for handicap purposes ? 

 

Under CONGU you wouldn’t be given any score at all as formats where you have a ‘partner’ are not acceptable scores for handicap purposes. This scenario is exactly why the concept of using such formats for handicapping is alien to our golf culture. Frankly we have no idea what you would have scored, so we would be making a guess (based on a set of rules/guidelines) which seems an arbitrary way of judging performance in a sport where performance can be judged by a numerical value.

[ParHunter]

So basically the main difference is that in the UK you might have to get e.g. get 37 Stableford points (when CR is 71 on a par 72) or 35 points (CR 73 on par 72) to play to your handicap while in the rest of the world when you get 36 points then you've played to your handicap.

 

I guess it would have made it too easy to compare your rounds on difference courses ... 

[Newby]

11 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

So basically the main difference is that in the UK you might have to get e.g. get 37 Stableford points (when CR is 71 on a par 72) or 35 points (CR 73 on par 72) to play to your handicap while in the rest of the world when you get 36 points then you've played to your handicap.

 

I guess it would have made it too easy to compare your rounds on difference courses ... 

Why rate your score against par when you are playing against the Course Rating for your handicap?

But we have no difficulty in doing the arithmetic after we have played a stableford if we wish to.

 

Par of a course is a bit of a nonsense though.

As I have said before

18 x 300 yard par 4s and 18 x 420 yards par 4s are both par 72 but will have very different CRs.

 

The HI of a player only playing one course will be quite different to a player always playing the other. Both playing to 10 over par (say).

[Newby]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, that 4-footer isn't technically (I think) a "gimme". A gimme is an automatically conceded stroke for a match, not an estimate for an incomplete hole for handicap purposes.

 

 

I was referring to the table on page 39 Rule 3.3 of the US manual.

Effectively a stroke play gimme 😉

[ParHunter]

41 minutes ago, Newby said:

Why rate your score against par when you are playing against the Course Rating for your handicap?

But we have no difficulty in doing the arithmetic after we have played a stableford if we wish to.

 

Par of a course is a bit of a nonsense though.

As I have said before

18 x 300 yard par 4s and 18 x 420 yards par 4s are both par 72 but will have very different CRs.

 

The HI of a player only playing one course will be quite different to a player always playing the other. Both playing to 10 over par (say).

I am rating it against the Stableford score! 36 points should mean you've played to your handicap but here in the UK it doesn't. That is my point! If the course handicap calculation would take the difference of par and Course rating into account you would not have that problem. Yes you might get some adjustments for the day depending how good the field was but in most cases you would know that if you got 36 points you've played to your handicap. Whether that was on the 2010 course at Celtic Manor or an easy course around the corner. 

 

And how are multi-tee box competitions supposed to work?

They can have different slope ratings and different course ratings but your calculation only takes the slope rating into account!

E.g. of the whites we have a slope of 129 and a CR of 70.9, of the yellow we have a slope of 125 and a CR of 69.2.

Let's say you have two players with Handicap Index of 10.7 each then your Course handicap would be 12.2 (whites) or 11.8 (yellow). So in both cases they would play of 12 but one is playing off the white tees and the other one is playing of the yellow tees which are rated 0.8 strokes easier. So yes if all are playing of the same tee it doesn't matter but it makes multi-tee competitions impossible.

 

If you take the CR into account player 1 of the whites would have a Course Handicap of 10.9 and player two of the yellows a Course Handicap of 9!

Edited October 26, 2020 by ParHunter

[Newby]

20 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

I am rating it against the Stableford score! 36 points should mean you've played to your handicap but here in the UK it doesn't. That is my point! If the course handicap calculation would take the difference of par and Course rating into account you would not have that problem.

It isn't a problem. Under CONGU 36 points in a stableford has never meant you have played to your handicap unless the SSS was equal to par. We have managed to cope for eons, they teach arithmetic in most schools here.

 

Rule 6.2b (CONGU Manual) covers Multiple Tees with Different Pars

Edited October 26, 2020 by Newby

[Deceptively Short]

Our first outing at a different course following the introduction of WHS is next week, there are 16 of us playing with a range of handicap indexes from 2.1 to 19.4.
 

Some want to play off the yellows par 72 131/71.3 and some off the whites par 72 132 72.7. How do we calculate our course handicaps? Do we add 1.4 (the differential between the cr of yellows and whites) to the handicap indexes of the players then calculate course handicap? Or do we ‘round down’ the 1.4 to 1 and just add this to the course handicap off the whites?
In the old days we would just add the difference in SSS and this was a whole number, now it is a fraction and we have the additional index to course handicap calculation to do.

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

And how are multi-tee box competitions supposed to work?

They can have different slope ratings and different course ratings but your calculation only takes the slope rating into account!

E.g. of the whites we have a slope of 129 and a CR of 70.9, of the yellow we have a slope of 125 and a CR of 69.2.

Let's say you have two players with Handicap Index of 10.7 each then your Course handicap would be 12.2 (whites) or 11.8 (yellow). So in both cases they would play of 12 but one is playing off the white tees and the other one is playing of the yellow tees which are rated 0.8 strokes easier. So yes if all are playing of the same tee it doesn't matter but it makes multi-tee competitions impossible.

 

 

I must be missing something here but in my country each player has a Course Handicap determined to them based on their Handicap Index and the rating of the tee being played from. You simply check from the handicap table what is your CH from that tee and there you go!

 

Afa your example if concerned, so far I have not been on a course where players with same HI get the same CH playing from different tees. I would say such cases are results of miscalculations of handicap tables or incorrect rating of the course.

[ParHunter]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must be missing something here but in my country each player has a Course Handicap determined to them based on their Handicap Index and the rating of the tee being played from. You simply check from the handicap table what is your CH from that tee and there you go!

 

Afa your example if concerned, so far I have not been on a course where players with same HI get the same CH playing from different tees. I would say such cases are results of miscalculations of handicap tables or incorrect rating of the course.

This comes back to the original post that in the UK the adjustment of CR-par is not taken into account when calculating the Course Handicap while in the rest of the world it is. The UK only uses the slope which is only half of the story. 

 

[Mr. Bean]

44 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

This comes back to the original post that in the UK the adjustment of CR-par is not taken into account when calculating the Course Handicap while in the rest of the world it is. The UK only uses the slope which is only half of the story. 

 

 

CR is still used for calculating the CH. Omitting (CR-par) only shifts the CHs on the scale, it does not alter the relations between different tees.

[DaveLeeNC]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

No. The Score Differential formula (used to calculate a Handicap Index) is exactly the same.

 

SD = (113/slope) x (gross - CR - PCC)

(Gross adjusted for ndb)

Par is not involved.

My question was how to properly handle ESC in this example. dave

Edited October 26, 2020 by DaveLeeNC

[North Butte]

Sounds like CONGU folks, with regard to playing from different tees within the same competition, have moved "forward" only to the point where we were in USGA land up until the WHS changes. It's still up to the players to figure out the difference in course ratings between the tees being played and apply that to their handicaps.

 

Hopefully they won't have to do that for 20+ years like we did over here before USGA finally incorporated CR-Par directly into the course handicap calculation. 

 

But it's back to the two cultures thing. From my admittedly finite experience playing at UK clubs, anything that accommodates or simplifies players competing against each other while playing from different tees is probably looked on as the moral equivalent to taking mulligans or teeing the ball up in the fairway...it's not Real Golf.

Edited October 26, 2020 by North Butte

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, North Butte said:

But it's back to the two cultures thing. From my admittedly finite experience playing at UK clubs, anything that accommodates or simplifies players competing against each other while playing from different tees is probably looked on as the moral equivalent to taking mulligans or teeing the ball up in the fairway...it's not Real Golf.

 

From earlier posts I have got the impression that such mixed tee - one gender handicap competitions are rare in the UK (never take place here in Finland) but are played in the US.

[Mr. Bean]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Sounds like CONGU folks, with regard to playing from different tees within the same competition, have moved "forward" only to the point where we were in USGA land up until the WHS changes. It's still up to the players to figure out the difference in course ratings between the tees being played and apply that to their handicaps.

 

I wonder what you mean by that. Each player gets the CH from the Handicap Tables. There is absolutely no need to apply or figure out anything, just use the CH found in the table. See an example below:

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mr. Bean

[Halebopp]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

From earlier posts I have got the impression that such mixed tee - one gender handicap competitions are rare in the UK (never take place here in Finland) but are played in the US.

 

I'd assume the weekly seniors' competitions at most clubs allow the players to choose the tees they play from. At least that's the way it's done at our club.

[Mr. Bean]

9 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

I'd assume the weekly seniors' competitions at most clubs allow the players to choose the tees they play from. At least that's the way it's done at our club.

 

You are absolutely right! I forgot those, they are not uncommon, although we tried that once and dismissed it.

[ParHunter]

 

3 hours ago, Newby said:

It isn't a problem. Under CONGU 36 points in a stableford has never meant you have played to your handicap unless the SSS was equal to par. We have managed to cope for eons, they teach arithmetic in most schools here.

 

Rule 6.2b (CONGU Manual) covers Multiple Tees with Different Pars

 

So if the math isn't the problem, why did they remove the CR-par then? There was a chance to make it better and more logical but I guess that was shot down with the killer argument of 'We've never a done it that way' or the other favourite one 'We've always done it that way'.

 

 

 

[Deceptively Short]

I’ve just had to explain to my group for our trip, next week that, as we will be playing off different tees, we can’t simply go to the board at the Club we’re playing at and read our course handicap off the table will have up somewhere but we need to factor in the course rating.
So the calculation is HI x (slope/113) + (CR - par). Then I showed a couple of our new HI examples. Imagine the confusion!

I have just found on the USGA website a course handicap calculator table which you can create that (as its in the US) includes CR - par. I have now shared this with the group so they don’t all have to do the maths. It might be an idea if U.K clubs had such tables available for just such an instance.

[North Butte]

56 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I wonder what you mean by that. Each player gets the CH from the Handicap Tables. There is absolutely no need to apply or figure out anything, just use the CH found in the table. See an example below:

 

Under the previous USGA system (and from what I've read here apparently under the current UK system) handicapping using Course Handicap only worked when all players competing against each other play the same tees. 

Under the old definition of course handicap (no CR-Par) if I am a 17 course handicap from the 6,200 yard tees and I played against someone who is a 17 course handicap from 5,700 yard tees we had to go look up the difference in course rating between those two sets of tees (typically a couple strokes) and one or the other of us had to adjust our "17" to account for that difference.

 

The USGA has now finally incorporated CR-Par into our GHIN course handicaps. So I look up my CH from the 6,200 yard tees, my friend Dave looks up his CH from 5,700 yard tees and we're good to go. 

 

It appears than UK has opted out of CR-Par so they definitely can not compete fairly from different tees unless the players themselves apply the difference in Course Ratings to their relative handicaps. It doesn't seem like a big deal but trust me, the adjustment for course rating differences causes constant disputes, misunderstandings, errors and general aggro and has done for many, many years prior to the recent changes.

[North Butte]

29 minutes ago, ParHunter said:

 

 

So if the math isn't the problem, why did they remove the CR-par then? There was a chance to make it better and more logical but I guess that was shot down with the killer argument of 'We've never a done it that way' or the other favourite one 'We've always done it that way'.

 

 

 

There are a couple guys I know well and have played a good bit of golf who live in UK and find the entire concept of competing against someone who is playing different tees to be awful, horrible, terrible and unacceptable. I mean these are reasonable guys who for whatever reason are totally dogmatic on that subject. 

 

My guess the Powers That Be in UK golf include quite a few people like my two friends for whom everyone teeing off from the same tees is as fundamental to the game as playing it down, putting it out and counting every stroke.