Hank Haney says if you can't hit the long ball the game has passed you by

[bscinstnct]

11 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

If 100 Tour current pros were asked if that were true I guess 5 of them would agree and the other 95 would say they want to play from the fairway.

 

The correct question to ask is 

 

Would you rather have a wedge from rough or a mid iron from the fairway.

 

Ask that now compared to decades ago and you’ll get very different answers. 

[EDT501]

I think Haney is right, provided he's talking about elite amateur (USGA other Am "majors" + D1 college) and professional events. I think it's hard to make a case that you can be regularly competitive at that level anymore without being able to carry the ball 290+. Along with having a fantastic short game, its just the price of admission these days if you are competing at these levels. 

 

This doesn't apply to your everyday casual golfers who can elect to play an appropriate shorter set of tees. It's just like with other sports, the professionals just have a different set of physical requirements to compete at that level. You almost certainly have to be 6'5"+ to have a chance to play professional or elite college basketball (exceptions exist but are rare), but that doesn't mean someone 5'5" can't play and enjoy the game. 

[bscinstnct]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I don’t remember...how old are you? Wedges into par 5’s were rare? Lol. Where do you get that? Reaching in two shots may have been slightly more rare than today but part of that was we were taught the percentage play was to lay up to our favorite wedge distance. But it was rare to have more than wedge for a third shot. Not rare to have a wedge.

 

Lets just say,

 

The game is different. And you don’t have a bunch of average distance pros like Faldo, Trevino, and Ray Floyd as capable of winning as many majors.

[Fairway14]

16 minutes ago, physasst said:

Wasn't it Nicklaus that said years ago that the first thing you needed to do was to learn to hit as far as you could. Accuracy came later.

 

Doesn't sound that different than what is happening now.

 

M

 

#1) Jack Nicklaus made that comment within the context of discussing junior golfers beginning to learn the game

#2) Instructor Jack Grout taught JN to swing around a steady head, and had an assistant hold young Jack's head while he hit range balls

#3) Jack learned at a young age that using 80% swing effort produced shots with acceptable distance and good accuracy, so he played that way for his entire career. Only on rare occasion did Jack feel a shot called for more than 80%. Most Tour pros played the same way back then and still do today.

 

[SilvioDante]

By the way, what are the reasons putting gets worse through aging? Is it something with the eyes, feel thing or what?

[Shilgy]

20 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Lets just say,

 

The game is different. And you don’t have a bunch of average distance pros like Faldo, Trevino, and Ray Floyd as capable of winning as many majors.

In ‘96 Faldo’s driving distance was within 6 yards of the Sharks....6! And in ‘82 Raymond was within 8 yards of Jack. So neither were short for their era.

The equivalent today would be Webb Simpson  and Morikawa. And they are still 8th and 4th in the world rankings. Has the scale been slid 40 yards or so down the fairway? Yes. 

[Fairway14]

15 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Lets just say,

 

The game is different. And you don’t have a bunch of average distance pros like Faldo, Trevino, and Ray Floyd as capable of winning as many majors.

 

2020 PGA Championship winner Morikawa ramks 143rd in Tour driving distance

2020 US Open winner DeChambeau ranks 1st in driving distance

2019 Masters winner Tiger ranks 180th in driving distance

2019 US Open winner Woodland ranks 130th in driving distance

2019 British Open winner Shane Lowry ranks 53rd

2019 PGA Winner Brooks Koepka ranks 58th

 

Sadly, talking heads like Haney babble on about "distance" , which sends the wrong message to naive amateur players who may be trying to improve their own games.

[Shilgy]

19 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

#1) Jack Nicklaus made that comment within the context of discussing junior golfers beginning to learn the game

#2) Instructor Jack Grout taught JN to swing around a steady head, and had an assistant hold young Jack's head while he hit range balls

#3) Jack learned at a young age that using 80% swing effort produced shots with acceptable distance and good accuracy, so he played that way for his entire career. Only on rare occasion did Jack feel a shot called for more than 80%. Most Tour pros played the same way back then and still do today.

 

The 80% thing is, in my opinion, overused and misleading. No one actually swung at 80% speed.  Unless you think Jack was capable of swinging 140 or so and chose 112 instead? It may have “felt like” 80% but was more like 95%....just like the pros today. We can look at average and peak club head speed on the tour website these days.

[bscinstnct]

18 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

In ‘96 Faldo’s driving distance was within 6 yards of the Sharks....6! And in ‘82 Raymond was within 8 yards of Jack. So neither were short for their era.

The equivalent today would be Webb Simpson  and Morikawa. And they are still 8th and 4th in the world rankings. Has the scale been slid 40 yards or so down the fairway? Yes. 

Jack? Lol, in ‘82?

 

He was 42 years old. 
 

That’s like comparing TW now to the leaders.

 

Ill assume you get the idea.

 

Faldo, Trevino, Ray Floyd, top HoFers. None were big off the tee.

 

Very different situation now. 

[Fairway14]

44 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

I think Haney is right, provided he's talking about elite amateur (USGA other Am "majors" + D1 college) and professional events. I think it's hard to make a case that you can be regularly competitive at that level anymore without being able to carry the ball 290+. Along with having a fantastic short game, its just the price of admission these days if you are competing at these levels. 

 

 

 

The development of the equipment , ball and driver, has meant that all the amateur contestants at majors or D! college strike at or near 300 yard tee balls. JIm Furyk is 50 years old and his 286 yard average is 25 yards longer than when he was a young rookie player. Due to current equipment, most all male players 35 years or younger,  in good health and with a fundamentally sound swing, are driving the ball near 300 yards. The current balls and drivers make long drives relatively easy to achieve, thousands of players around the world do it.

[Fairway14]

35 minutes ago, SilvioDante said:

By the way, what are the reasons putting gets worse through aging? Is it something with the eyes, feel thing or what?

 

Nerves.

[Shilgy]

2 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Jack? Lol, in ‘82?

 

He was 42 years old. 
 

That’s like comparing TW now to the leaders.

 

Ill assume you get the idea.

 

Faldo, Trevino, Ray Floyd, top HoFers. None were big off the tee.

 

Very different situation now. 

I thought of that. Floyd was 40 then as well so point is still valid. None of your players were short hitters. Average maybe....like Simpson and Morikawa today. 
In every era the top dog was among the longest of the day...Jones...Snead/Hogan...Jack....Norman....Tiger..... all were long. Not a requirement to good golf but to be the best?

[mizuno player]

6 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Good question,

 

Took a quick look. In the early 80s

 

The distance leaders were 275-280

 

 

Faldo, 256

Trevino, 255

Ray Floyd, 255

Miller, 259

 

Considering the reduced number from today’s, you have a much larger percentage difference when taking about a 20 yard gap.

 

Gary Player won the masters in 1978. In 1981 (the soonest year the PGA Tour site has his average distance) he averaged 

 

246 yards off the tee. 

I'm actually surprised at Miller. The took a whack at the ball. I thought he'd be a little higher. 

[puttfordoux]

22 hours ago, JD3 said:

Discuss 

 

 

Who is the most current dominant player in this collage? It's Phil, on the Champions Tour.  And its because of the long ball.

 

Makes sense to me....

[EDT501]

7 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The development of the equipment , ball and driver, has meant that all the amateur contestants at majors or D! college strike at or near 300 yard tee balls. JIm Furyk is 50 years old and his 286 yard average is 25 yards longer than when he was a young rookie player. Due to current equipment, most all male players 35 years or younger,  in good health and with a fundamentally sound swing, are driving the ball near 300 yards. The current balls and drivers make long drives relatively easy to achieve, thousands of players around the world do it.

Equipment has definitely made it easier to get to those distances, but it isn't the only reason why the best players are longer now. Professional golfers now are definitely more athletic as a group than they were 20-60 years ago. The athletes are getting faster, bigger, and stronger in every sport, but I think the PGA Tour has probably seen the most dramatic changes of any league in the past decades. Also tournament courses are generally maintained tighter and firmer, at least in the fairways, then they were in decades past, that extra bounce and roll is helping boost distance numbers too, although likely less than the points above. The distance increases are real and significant, but they can't be wholly pinned down onto any one factor. 

 

I'll push back against the statement that all decent players under 35 can hit the ball 285+. I think people dramatically over-estimated how far their tee-balls are going, on average. I always book as a single and therefore get to see a lot of different people over months of play. This year, with dozens of rounds on the books, I have played with 2 people who legitimately drove the ball 275+ and only one was really capable of 300 with anything short of a long-drive swing. On the other hand, I've had playing partners estimate my drives to be 300-320 when really they are in the 285-290 range on average. 

[bscinstnct]

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I thought of that. Floyd was 40 then as well so point is still valid. None of your players were short hitters. Average maybe....like Simpson and Morikawa today. 
In every era the top dog was among the longest of the day...Jones...Snead/Hogan...Jack....Norman....Tiger..... all were long. Not a requirement to good golf but to be the best?

 

In 1981 Jack hit 70% fairways 

 

This year Bryson has been hitting...52% fairways

 

Different game ; )

[Fairway14]

4 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

 

 

I'll push back against the statement that all decent players under 35 can hit the ball 285+.

 

 

I wrote "fundamentally sound swing".

[GSDriver]

Maybe on 7500+ yard tour courses, for us mere mortals who play 7000 or less, I disagree.  Due to aging, I don't hit it near as far as I used to, but I still hit about 13 greens a round, so if short game is working that day usually am in the 70s.

 

Tour game is different, as are the courses and setup.

[m d g]

I would like to see driver carry distance tracked as well as total yards.

 

The pros play on fairways that look like the putting greens where I play.

 

In the '70s and '80s the fairways were pretty darned scruffy. Watch some 'Wonderful World of Golf' for visual confirmation...

[EDT501]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

 

I wrote "fundamentally sound swing".

I have a good group of friends who played at lower level D1 or D3 programs and only 1 of them is in the 300 club. The rest are probably 270-290. I’ll be sure to let them know you don’t think their swings aren’t “fundamentally sound” next time we play.

 

Golfers are longer now but the idea that 285-300+ yard drives are the norm now is ludicrous. 
 

I’ll reiterate my original post, Haney is right provided he’s talking about the professional and elite D1 level, you have to hit it a long way to be competitive. I remain unconvinced that the game has changed in the same way for your typical golfer. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by EDT501

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, EDT501 said:

 

 

Golfers are longer now but the idea that 285-300+ yard drives are the norm now is ludicrous. 

 

I never wrote 285-300 yard drives is "the norm".

I wrote that (due to the current balls and drivers available)  healthy males under 35 years old with fundamentally sound swings are driving the ball near 300 yards.

[Fairway14]

6 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

 

I’ll reiterate my original post, Haney is right provided he’s talking about the professional and elite D1 level, you have to hit it a long way to be competitive.

 

Haney does not need to state that because anyone who follows top level golf already knows it's true. Every current Tour player is at 290 yards. Every player on ranked men's D1 college teams is at 290 yards. It's no big deal. It hasn't been a big deal for several years now. The balls and drivers are so good that any young male with a fundamentally sound swings hits driver near 300. Among high skill level competitions, because of the equipment (drivers and balls)  there are no "short hitters".

In the lesser skilled amateur game at private clubs and municipal courses there are lots of short hitters because the swing technique is not fundamentally sound enough to get the benefits of the equipment. Hackers are still hackers whether it is 1950, 1980, or 2020.

 

[EDT501]

6 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

The balls and drivers are so good that any young male with a fundamentally sound swings hits driver near 300.

Wrong!!! I have a good group of friends who I grew up playing with, we all are now in our mid-twenties and still healthy. We all have had decades of coaching, have well above average mechanical skills, use modern well-fit equipment, and most of us played D3 or less-competitive D1 programs. Clearly not "hackers." Only one of us is regularly hitting the ball near 300 yards under normal conditions during regular play.

 

12 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

Among high skill level competitions, because of the equipment (drivers and balls)  there are no "short hitters".

I'd argue this is just as much about 1) there being a deeper pool of talent at the elite level now and 2) PGA especially pros being in dramatically better physical shape now as it is about equipment. I'd be willing to wager that if you had a PGA tournament with persimmons and balatas the driving averages today would still be dramatically higher than what they were in the 60s-90s.

 

17 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

Every current Tour player is at 290 yards. Every player on ranked men's D1 college teams is at 290 yards. It's no big deal. It hasn't been a big deal for several years now.

Agreed. The gap between the Pros and the Joe's is widening. Whats happening on the tour doesn't have a ton of relevancy to the weekend-warrior and as the skill gap continues to widen (pros as a whole are getting continually better and amateurs as a group aren't) that will only become the case more. 

 

IF you want to compete at the highest possible level, you have to hit the ball 290+. Like the short game, that is a skill that has to be earned and isn't something you can buy from Taylormade or Titleist. If you don't want to dedicate your life to comeptitive golf you can still be an excellent player without hitting it that far.

[PowderedToastMan]

5 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

You are correct about Foley, he was terrible for Tiger. Foley was called in to fix the mess made by Haney. When Foley failed Chris Como made things worse. Haney, Foley, Como fake it while Butch Harmon is the real deal.

Had he stuck with Butch Harmon my guess is that Tiger would now have 20 Major victories or more. Harmon truly understands the game and the swing. 

Except Tiger was a worse golfer in 2002 and 2003 than in 2005-2008. So the logic doesn’t stand that Tiger would have maintained his 1997-2001 greatness seeing as he couldn’t even do it in 2002-2003 under Butch. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

In 1981 Jack hit 70% fairways 

 

This year Bryson has been hitting...52% fairways

 

Different game ; )

Lol 8 rounds measured this year and 4 of them were at the US Open with extremely narrow fairways. But yeah...as long as you want to use 2021 would you rather hit 71% at 265-270 off the tee or 52%  at 344? **

 

That also means BDC hit about 64% at his other measured event in the ‘21 season. Not bad at 344.

[Fairway14]

57 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

Wrong!!! I have a good group of friends who I grew up playing with, we all are now in our mid-twenties and still healthy. We all have had decades of coaching, have well above average mechanical skills, use modern well-fit equipment, and most of us played D3 or less-competitive D1 programs. Clearly not "hackers." Only one of us is regularly hitting the ball near 300 yards under normal conditions during regular play.

Relatively few players ever learn/maintain a fundamentally sound swing.

 

57 minutes ago, EDT501 said:

 

I'd argue this is just as much about 1) there being a deeper pool of talent at the elite level now and 2) PGA especially pros being in dramatically better physical shape now as it is about equipment. I'd be willing to wager that if you had a PGA tournament with persimmons and balatas the driving averages today would still be dramatically higher than what they were in the 60s-90s.

Being physically fit is fine but I don't believe it is significant towards shooting lower scores. I know it's become trendy to call golfers "athletes" but golf is a game, not a sport.  And golf is mostly a mental game at that, requiring the mental discipline to learn technique and play good sense shots around the course. Throughout history there are way too many out of physical shape golf champions to make a claim that one needs to be an extraordinary physical specimen and, or, "great athlete" to win golf championships.

 

[Fairway14]

Just now, Shilgy said:

Lol 8 rounds measured this year and 4 of them were at the US Open with extremely narrow fairways. But yeah...as long as you want to use 2021 would you rather hit 71% at 265-270 off the tee or 52%  at 344? **

 

That also means BDC hit about 64% at his other measured event in the ‘21 season. Not bad at 344.

 

For the 2020 US Open Winged Foot was set up so that players could swing a 4-iron from the tee boxes and still not hit many fairways.

[bscinstnct]

7 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Lol 8 rounds measured this year and 4 of them were at the US Open with extremely narrow fairways. But yeah...as long as you want to use 2021 would you rather hit 71% at 265-270 off the tee or 52%  at 344? **

 

That also means BDC hit about 64% at his other measured event in the ‘21 season. Not bad at 344.

Bryson, Rory, DJ, JT, all in the 50s for driving accuracy in the full 2020 season. 

 

Unheard of in Arnie, Jack, Watson, really any era besides the current one for a pro much less most of the top 5 golfers to be in the 50s in driving accuracy.

 

Different game. 

 

I know you get my drift here. But respect you sticking to your guns ; )

Edited October 30, 2020 by bscinstnct

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

For the 2020 US Open Winged Foot was set up so that players could swing a 4-iron from the tee boxes and still not hit many fairways.

Thank you, that was the pint.

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

Bryson, Rory, DJ, JT, all in the 50s for driving accuracy 

 

Unheard of in Arnie, Jack, Watson, really any era besides the current one for a pro much less most of the top 5 golfers to be in the 50s in driving accuracy.

 

Different game. 

 

I know you get my drift here. But respect you sticking to your guns ; )

Other have done the math in other threads. Which has a greater degree of error? .....in the fairway by a couple yards at 265 or missing the fairway by a couple yards at 300+? 
It’s the same game with a different strategy being used. 
 

It’s the analytic nature of the modern game...like game 6 of the World Series. The analytics said pull Snell as he was about to face the lineup a third time. The old school purists said “what the hell are you talking about? He’s unhittable tonight!”

 

Since you brought up Arnie....remind me again....was the prudent “put it in the fairway” his play at the US Open at Cherry Hills? Or did he have a belief he could drive the green and go for it.  At my level of play I can hit about 80% of fairways with a 3 wood or 60% with driver. Are you telling me I should lay up on every hole?

Don’t be daft!