Hank Haney says if you can't hit the long ball the game has passed you by

[bscinstnct]

22 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Other have done the math in other threads. Which has a greater degree of error? .....in the fairway by a couple yards at 265 or missing the fairway by a couple yards at 300+? 
It’s the same game with a different strategy being used. 
 

It’s the analytic nature of the modern game...like game 6 of the World Series. The analytics said pull Snell as he was about to face the lineup a third time. The old school purists said “what the hell are you talking about? He’s unhittable tonight!”

 

Since you brought up Arnie....remind me again....was the prudent “put it in the fairway” his play at the US Open at Cherry Hills? Or did he have a belief he could drive the green and go for it.  At my level of play I can hit about 80% of fairways with a 3 wood or 60% with driver. Are you telling me I should lay up on every hole?

Don’t be daft!

Put it this way,

 

JT, Bryson, DJ, and Rory can all be top 5 golfers and hit 50-59% of fairways.

 

If Jack, Faldo, Trevino, and Miller hit 50-59% fairways...

 

You’d be like,

 

Who?

 

😂

 

Its a different game. It’s Haneys whole thesis...

 

Just hit it as far as you can. And if you can find it, you’re fine. 

[pinhigh27]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Put it this way,

 

JT, Bryson, DJ, and Rory can all be top 5 golfers and hit 50-59% of fairways.

 

If Jack, Faldo, Trevino, and Miller hit 50-59% fairways...

 

You’d be like,

 

Who?

 

😂

 

Its a different game. It’s Haneys whole thesis...

 

Just hit it as far as you can. And if you can find it, you’re fine. 

How many fairways did Seve hit?

[PureStrikes54]

6 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

You are correct about Foley, he was terrible for Tiger. Foley was called in to fix the mess made by Haney. When Foley failed Chris Como made things worse. Haney, Foley, Como fake it while Butch Harmon is the real deal.

Had he stuck with Butch Harmon my guess is that Tiger would now have 20 Major victories or more. Harmon truly understands the game and the swing. 

 

Tiger a "mess" under Haney....strokes gained tee to green says otherwise. 

[bscinstnct]

1 minute ago, pinhigh27 said:

How many fairways did Seve hit?

 

; )

 

 

[EDT501]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

Relatively few players ever learn/maintain a fundamentally sound swing.

 

How are you defining “fundamentally sound swing?”

[chetschwalm]

EDT, I wish you the best in your attempt to continue this discussion. I used to come to WRX every day and would post frequently. Tonight was a rare visit for me now but with the Masters approaching I couldn’t resist. This thread with the crazy posts from F14 quickly reminded me why I stay away. Keep up the good fight. I admire your effort. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

; )

 

 

Did you ever stop and think that...gasp, oh the horror!!...the old way was wwwwwrrrrrooooonnnggg? That it is truly possible that the best way to play, as defined by having actual, you know, lower scores is the modern way.  That buying into the whole as the architect intended routine was a feint. A sham. A deflection. A bit of architect genius to disguise what was really the best way to play the game? That is what we learn from analytics. 
 

 

look, it’s certainly everyone’s choice.  They can go the old school way and look pretty laying up. And that has a certain charm to it. Or they can play he’ll bent for leather and shoot lower scores. Depends on why you play.

[tolmij]

I would imagine the greater majority of golfers play for fun, the distance ethic is driven by the equipment companies trying to screw every cent they can from the gullible. Many of the amateurs I have played with cannot hits ball as far as they claim.

[Sean2]

20 hours ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

Anyone who thinks Haney is wrong is probably someone who doesn't hit it very far to begin with. I'm sorry, but if you're a short hitter, you're at a tremendous disadvantage. That's a fact. It's been studied at length and it's an obvious statement when you write it out, but the closer you are to the hole, statistically, the less strokes it will take you to get up and down.

 

Also, people need to stop saying Haney ruined Tiger's swing. Go look up the numbers. Tiger had nearly an equal Major win percentage and a significantly higher non-Major win percentage under the Haney swing. Do you honestly think the greatest player in the world would've spent 6+ years of his career with a single swing coach if it wasn't working?!

I agree that at the Tour level being a short hitter is a disadvantage, but at the amateur level not so much if the individual plays the tees best suited for his game. 

[bullie76]

Nah. I hit a short ball but do fine. I keep moving up to the shorter tees. Of course I'm an old geezer and allowed to do this. 😉

[bscinstnct]

10 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Did you ever stop and think that...gasp, oh the horror!!...the old way was wwwwwrrrrrooooonnnggg? That it is truly possible that the best way to play, as defined by having actual, you know, lower scores is the modern way.  That buying into the whole as the architect intended routine was a feint. A sham. A deflection. A bit of architect genius to disguise what was really the best way to play the game? That is what we learn from analytics. 
 

 

look, it’s certainly everyone’s choice.  They can go the old school way and look pretty laying up. And that has a certain charm to it. Or they can play he’ll bent for leather and shoot lower scores. Depends on why you play.

 

We are on the same page. I’m not judging whether current or past is “better”. Just that it really is a very different game. 
 

Personally, I think that the game is too geared toward “offense”. What I mean is that, unlike other sports where there is an offense that plays against a defensive, in golf, the only defense is the course itself.

 

So, in football, you can have a high powered offense, but a defense can prepare and shut it down.

 

What we have now, to continue with the football analogy, is a defense (the golf courses) that are ill equipped to prevent high powered offenses (bombers off the tee) from throwing bombs and getting easily to the “red zone”. But, the red zone defenses are beefed up (pin placements, stimp, green side set up) so the scoring hasn’t changed.

 

In the past, the combination of gear and course set up made for a more balanced approach required to attacking the “defense”. There was much more risk reward to consider to throw a bomb. 
 

I prefer a good balance and hope it can be maintained. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by bscinstnct

[Obee]

On 10/28/2020 at 4:38 PM, Dr. Block said:

Jeff Sluman hit the crap out of the ball for a little fella, he was the original Justin Thomas.  
 

Not trying to be a gotcha guy, just sticking up for one of my hometown boys.  Even though he was born in NY, we like to claim him as one of ours. Aside from the legend that is Steve Stricker, there aren’t too many tour players from up this way. 

He may have "hit the crap out of it for a little guy," but he was no Justin Thomas. Not close, actually. Justin Thomas is a "30th to 40th on the Tour in Driving distance" guy. Sluman was usually 60th to 120th in driving distance in his time on Tour. Thomas can be considered a "long hitter" by today's standards, Sluman was never a long hitter for his day. 

 

That is taking nothing away from him as a player -- he was fantastic, and I'm a fan.

[Obee]

17 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Put it this way,

 

JT, Bryson, DJ, and Rory can all be top 5 golfers and hit 50-59% of fairways.

 

If Jack, Faldo, Trevino, and Miller hit 50-59% fairways...

 

You’d be like,

 

Who?

 

😂

 

Its a different game. It’s Haneys whole thesis...

 

Just hit it as far as you can. And if you can find it, you’re fine. 

 

That's oversimplifying it in a big way. Hit is as far as you can on holes where it makes sense, which is plenty of holes on virtually every golf course - especially Tour courses, which are built to hold large crowds. Scott Fawcett's stuff is really solid about when to "send it and find it" and when not to.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Obee

[Dr. Block]

3 hours ago, Obee said:

He may have "hit the crap out of it for a little guy," but he was no Justin Thomas. Not close, actually. Justin Thomas is a "30th to 40th on the Tour in Driving distance" guy. Sluman was usually 60th to 120th in driving distance in his time on Tour. Thomas can be considered a "long hitter" by today's standards, Sluman was never a long hitter for his day. 

 

That is taking nothing away from him as a player -- he was fantastic, and I'm a fan.

When I made the original post, I looked but couldn't find any stats on his distance during his PGA tour years. He is currently averaging 273 yards on the Champions Tour. That places him something like 32nd on the driving distance list. Not bad for 63 years young. If that is how he compares to his peers now, then that would lead me to believe he did a little better then 60-120th when he was younger.  

 

I remember him being considered long at the time (though it was only said to me by my dad and his friends when we were hanging at the range when the show came to town). Anybody who is small and can mash has to bear some resemblance to JT, no?

Edited October 30, 2020 by Dr. Block

[Obee]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

When I made the original post, I looked but couldn't find any stats on his distance during his PGA tour years.  He is currently averaging 273 yards on the Champions Tour. That places him something like 32nd on the driving distance list. Not bad for 63 years young.  If that is how he compares to his peers now, then that would lead me to believe he did a little better then 60-120th when he was younger.  

 

I remember him being considered long at the time (though it was only said to me by my dad and his friends when we were hanging at the range when the show came to town).  Anybody who is small and can mash has to bear some resemblance to JT, no?

 

I already did the research. Usually somewhere around middle of the pack his entire career, and sometimes below 100. It's all available on PGATour.com. Just click on "Stats" and then "Off the Tee" and then "Driving Distance." 🙂

 

Best I found in looking through about ten years was 60th. Worst was 124th, I think.

 

[Dr. Block]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

 

I already did the research. Usually somewhere around middle of the pack his entire career, and sometimes below 100. It's all available on PGATour.com. Just click on "Stats" and then "Off the Tee" and then "Driving Distance." 🙂

 

Best I found in looking through about ten years was 60th. Worst was 124th, I think.

 

Well color me wrong then. My bad. 

 

I've always loved his simple move. There's something about guys that stand that close to the ball  - they just look efficient and powerful. I guess the legend must have grown to mythical proportions in my mind 🙂 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Dr. Block

[Obee]

1 minute ago, Dr. Block said:

Well color me wrong then. My bad.  I've always loved his simple and efficient move. There's something about guys that stand that close to the ball  - they just look efficient and powerful.  I guess the legend must have grown to mythical proportions in my mind 🙂 

 

Yeah, no worries, of course. Just an easy thing to look up and I like doing that kind of thing. Not to prove people wrong, at all, but to just satisfy my curiosity. 🙂

[Dr. Block]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

 

Yeah, no worries, of course. Just an easy thing to look up and I like doing that kind of thing. Not to prove people wrong, at all, but to just satisfy my curiosity. 🙂

I completely understand. Thanks for bringing it up. Now that I know those stats are there on the website, I can't wait to pour over them through the years. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Dr. Block

[Obee]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

I completely understand.  Thanks for bringing it up.  Now that I know those stats are there on the website, I can't wait to pour over them through the years. 

 

Absolutely. There's so much cool data in the Stats section. Way cool.

[Pepperturbo]

Regarding the "Long Ball", I trust Hank Haney copes with a disturbing case of baloney.  "Long or short ball" is still relative to playing conditions.  Take away certain playing conditions, and long won't be as long.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Obee said:

 

Absolutely. There's so much cool data in the Stats section. Way cool.

Only goes back to 1980 unfortunately.

[Obee]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Only goes back to 1980 unfortunately.

was there golf before that?

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, Obee said:

was there golf before that?

😆 not Ryder cup apparently but I thought the tour was before then

 

in case you didn’t see it...

Edited October 30, 2020 by Shilgy

[FakeClubPro]

On 10/28/2020 at 7:15 PM, Old Tom Morris said:

No more Jeff Slumans, Justin Leonards, or Corey Pavins winning majors ever again.  Even the pipsqueaks hit it far, Justin Thomas and Rickie Fowler.  Even though Fowler is just making a living and not making history.

 

Francesco Molinari did pretty good in 2017 and 2018.    Still, if you cannot get it out there close to 300 yards, like the majority of WRX'ers than the tour will be hard.

 

Most of these guys are very fit.  Jack was long, Tiger was long, Phil and Bubba when he got two green jackets.   Even Sam Snead bombed it.

[Valtiel]

Hank sure has a way of taking fairly straightforward thoughts/statements and voicing them as poorly and insecurely as possible, doesn't he? 😬

[Loki]

Haney is correct and the book Freakonomics shows us this: you just need enough of "it."

 

In tour golf you need to be long enough, a good enough short game and a good enough putter.

 

In the NBA you have to be tall enough, in NFL, different positions require enough of certain things.

 

In high level mathematics or physics, you don't need to be the smartest to work in the field, just smart enough.

 

A lot of life is about "enough."

[milesgiles]

On 10/29/2020 at 8:26 PM, physasst said:

Wasn't it Nicklaus that said years ago that the first thing you needed to do was to learn to hit as far as you could. Accuracy came later.

 

Doesn't sound that different than what is happening now.

 

M

 

No, I don’t think he said that. He did say golf was a thousand times more about precision than power. 40 years ago anyway.

 

Agassi said learn to hit it hard, then learn how to get it in. Out of interest 

[Pepperturbo]

What appears constantly overlooked - Pro yardages are finish yardages on designated holes at each event.  Yet, the most important iron yardage is "carry" yardage.  Maybe we need to adjust our thinking regarding Driver and look at Driver "carry" yardage only.   Seems that would change the discussion.

 

Funny how the Tours manipulate the grain direction on certain holes of each event, so balls land on down-grain turf and run like scalded dogs.  In many cases, as much as 50-75yds of run-out.  How is that NOT relevant to the long-ball discussion?

 

Mind you, this 70yr old doesn't have issues with fast fairways taking my ball out over 260-270 yards.  If all courses were setup like that I'd comfortably be playing all courses at 6700yds.  The difference is I know between technology and fairway conditions, I hit a long ball, still, for my age.  Take one or the other or both away, I won't be nearly as long.  I wouldn't like that at all.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[aenemated]

On 10/28/2020 at 6:32 PM, Soloman1 said:

There is nothing I hate more about the Internet than when someone posts something and says: "Discuss."

 

This is second only to "let that sink in."

 

 

[Sean2]

On 10/30/2020 at 3:34 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Regarding the "Long Ball", I trust Hank Haney copes with a disturbing case of baloney.  "Long or short ball" is still relative to playing conditions.  Take away certain playing conditions, and long won't be as long.

A few years ago at the Farmers, the weather was very wet and windy. I saw some drives that didn't carry past 250.

 

I read that some venues cut and roll the fairways, which might explain the amount of roll these guys get. For example, during one tournament Ryan Moore hit a drive that carried 280, but rolled out to 325.