The Buck Club: King-Collins out!

[mallrat]

There’s a course in Bend done by a big name designer. A private course that allows public play. The owner or managing partner always said that when they hit x number (350 I think) of members they would close to public play. Well they hit the membership number but have added lodging and restaurants so they need help filling that and haven’t closed public play.

 

Members not happy and public play isn’t great because you get sandwiched in between a bunch of members who are rude and don’t want you there. Not a good situation. 
 

Just relating a story. 

[CDM]

16 hours ago, mallrat said:

There’s a course in Bend done by a big name designer. A private course that allows public play. The owner or managing partner always said that when they hit x number (350 I think) of members they would close to public play. Well they hit the membership number but have added lodging and restaurants so they need help filling that and haven’t closed public play.

 

Members not happy and public play isn’t great because you get sandwiched in between a bunch of members who are rude and don’t want you there. Not a good situation. 
 

Just relating a story. 

 

You talking Tetherow?  I know that one has the issues you note, just wondering.

[canonlbp430]

He mentioned open to public by some sort of lottery or granting people one time access who wrote a letter, similar to Sand Hills or Tara Iti. He also said that there will be no dues, members will only pay for usage when at the course. He had more answers than I figured he would have. 
 

With that being said I would be shocked if this actually happens. 

[kerila07]

He may want to consider changing the whole “slow players will be asked to leave the property” line.  Hard to do that with a public golf course if you want to stay in business

[ND2005]

52 minutes ago, kerila07 said:

He may want to consider changing the whole “slow players will be asked to leave the property” line.  Hard to do that with a public golf course if you want to stay in business

 

Considering those are some of his best selling products, it would seem there's a large enough segment of the market that agrees...

[kerila07]

17 minutes ago, ND2005 said:

 

Considering those are some of his best selling products, it would seem there's a large enough segment of the market that agrees...

I am all for fast play just feel that’s a slogan that’s applicable to a private club.  It’s hard to make that work at a public daily fee course.  Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[Dancin]

2 hours ago, kerila07 said:

I am all for fast play just feel that’s a slogan that’s applicable to a private club.  It’s hard to make that work at a public daily fee course.  Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

it is a private club assuming we are still talking about the tree farm in Aiken, SC. Public play will be mostly during the two week period around the masters when all the private courses down there cash in. It's likely a big reason why he can even consider an on demand pay model instead of requiring dues from members. He will be able to fund a good portion (I'm thinking 25-30% or more based on the revenue other courses get during the masters) of his operating costs from those two weeks. While you may not be willing to pay $500 and up for a round at one of the private clubs during the masters, there are tons of people who do so willingly.

 

I fully expect it will happen within 5 years or less. Give him up to 3 years to gather the money needed to build it from national member deposits and two to build. He's already collected money from numerous founding investors (I know one) before they even had land purchased. Think about that. His vision convinced people to give him enough money to buy routings from two different architects (I assume King/Collins got paid something for their work, but I know Doak definitely got paid) and all the acreage for a golf course just on his own wit and promise before they even had a location picked out.

 

I would not bet against him. With a southern location playable year round, a routing from Doak and very good land, I don't think he will have any issue signing up enough members to get it built in the next couple years now that he owns the land.

[kerila07]

8 minutes ago, Dancin said:

it is a private club assuming we are still talking about the tree farm in Aiken, SC. Public play will be mostly during the two week period around the masters when all the private courses down there cash in. It's likely a big reason why he can even consider an on demand pay model instead of requiring dues from members. He will be able to fund a good portion (I'm thinking 25-30% or more based on the revenue other courses get during the masters) of his operating costs from those two weeks. While you may not be willing to pay $500 and up for a round at one of the private clubs during the masters, there are tons of people who do so willingly.

 

I fully expect it will happen within 5 years or less. Give him up to 3 years to gather the money needed to build it from national member deposits and two to build. He's already collected money from numerous founding investors (I know one) before they even had land purchased. Think about that. His vision convinced people to give him enough money to buy routings from two different architects (I assume King/Collins got paid something for their work, but I know Doak definitely got paid) and all the acreage for a golf course just on his own wit and promise before they even had a location picked out.

 

I would not bet against him. With a southern location playable year round, a routing from Doak and very good land, I don't think he will have any issue signing up enough members to get it built in the next couple years now that he owns the land.

Good to know, I was referring to the slogan being applied to TBC merchandise since it is now going to be a public track.  Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[dcmidnight]

8 hours ago, Dancin said:

it is a private club assuming we are still talking about the tree farm in Aiken, SC. Public play will be mostly during the two week period around the masters when all the private courses down there cash in. It's likely a big reason why he can even consider an on demand pay model instead of requiring dues from members. He will be able to fund a good portion (I'm thinking 25-30% or more based on the revenue other courses get during the masters) of his operating costs from those two weeks. While you may not be willing to pay $500 and up for a round at one of the private clubs during the masters, there are tons of people who do so willingly.

 

I fully expect it will happen within 5 years or less. Give him up to 3 years to gather the money needed to build it from national member deposits and two to build. He's already collected money from numerous founding investors (I know one) before they even had land purchased. Think about that. His vision convinced people to give him enough money to buy routings from two different architects (I assume King/Collins got paid something for their work, but I know Doak definitely got paid) and all the acreage for a golf course just on his own wit and promise before they even had a location picked out.

 

I would not bet against him. With a southern location playable year round, a routing from Doak and very good land, I don't think he will have any issue signing up enough members to get it built in the next couple years now that he owns the land.

 

I heard the same things about the Buck Club location four or five years ago. Its going to be a great buddies private course. Great destination for a bucket list trip. Great place for BYU to go play. Lots of layout sketches done, put out there and sold. Lots of paintings/sketches sold of one particular par 3 layout. Lots of great merch sold. So he certainly took in a lot of money.

 

So I have no doubt he is good at selling things. And there are countless people with more money on their hands that they know what to do with. I had no idea people paid *$1,500* to go hang with him at the Ringer. And no, dont tell me you get free headcovers. Stop.

 

Here's what I still dont know - how is this course supposed to make money? I've seen that there are no membership dues - sorry but there is no possible way you fund a course from a two week stretch of public play. I have been a member at a very small course for the last 8 years or so, I know roughly what salaries cost for a pretty small staff. There's no way he's funding that from public play and membership "pay as you play" - unless its into the four figures to play.

 

Moving south certainly was a smart move, I'll give him that.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by dcmidnight

[jjthomp2]

Sorry but the whole "no dues" idea sounds too idealistic. He's not a billionaire. I can think of 1 club that is like that, Canyata and I'm not certain they have members but a Billionaire owns the place.

 

Look, put me in the camp that is always going to be excited to see golf courses being developed. Just seems like there is so much smoke and mirrors with each "Buck Club" iteration that I think it's probably best to withhold judgement if/when it opens.

 

Oh and just because you've got people throwing him 15k to be a "founding member" (that's what one of them in SC told me he stroked to be one) he better have about 200 of them lining up to pay it because 15k isn't getting you very far when you talk about the cost of building a golf course. 

 

@DancinA lot of wealthy people gave Madoff money too that didn't pan out so well...

[mci711]

On 1/30/2021 at 10:11 PM, daniel32293 said:

 

 

(Deleted)

Edited February 2, 2021 by mci711

[DoubleorQuits]

So much speculation/disinformation on this thread.  Have yet to see a correct post (guess) of the structure.

 

If you really want to know the model reach out to Zac. 

 

 

[jjthomp2]

3 hours ago, DoubleorQuits said:

So much speculation/disinformation on this thread.  Have yet to see a correct post (guess) of the structure.

 

If you really want to know the model reach out to Zac. 

 

 

please, enlighten us then.

[dcmidnight]

Seriously, this is the WRX equivalent of an 8 year old saying "La la la, I know something you dont know..." - and then not bothering to provide any new information. These kinds of posts pop up in new club threads a lot. Guy comes in, says you're all wrong - but doesn't add anything positive to the conversation.

 

So help us out. Or dont.

 

Thats why "speculation/disinformation" literally describes a golf forum's business model.

 

[mallrat]

From what little experience I have, a club like this is going to run roughly around $1 mil maintenance budget (on the low end). That is nothing else involved and not including digging/finding a well. Also not including the initial outlay for equipment which will probably be between $1.5 & 2 mil not including the shops.

[fore_life]

On 1/28/2021 at 9:11 AM, vallygolf said:

Got it... It wouldn't surprise you if he financed it through connections he made at church.  Much like any regional group or religion.l 

Edited February 3, 2021 by fore_life
Meh

[jpthreesticks]

Granted this is a very simplified look at things, but Masters Week alone (in a normal year) could bring in between $500k-1 million-plus in tee time revenue.  If you expand the week to run from Sunday prior to Monday after, that's 9 days.  If the club sold by the tee time (like Augusta CC does) as opposed by the player, ran tee times at 10 minute intervals from 7:30 AM until 3:30 PM with no starters times built in, that is 49 tee times and based on the ACC rate of $2500, that would be $122,500/day.

 

Even if he sold those at a rate comparable to Palmetto ($1200 per tee time), that is still $58,800 in tee time revenue per day.  My guess is that with the following he's built and interest around the course, he may price it closer to the ACC amount at least for the first few years.  

 

 

I would also guess that when members do come to play, it would be an all-in four figure fee day to stay and play.  Say $1000/night gets you lodging, F&B, and all you can play for a day.  That is a similar price for other places in an all-inclusive type of visit.  If you aren't charging dues, then you are going to pay a premium when you visit to play.  I think he's got a shot to be successful with this model.  

[GreyDawg]

@DoubleorQuits Most of the latest info posted here is coming from the fried egg podcast which is coming directly from ZB

[Dancin]

4 hours ago, jpthreesticks said:

Granted this is a very simplified look at things, but Masters Week alone (in a normal year) could bring in between $500k-1 million-plus in tee time revenue.  If you expand the week to run from Sunday prior to Monday after, that's 9 days.  If the club sold by the tee time (like Augusta CC does) as opposed by the player, ran tee times at 10 minute intervals from 7:30 AM until 3:30 PM with no starters times built in, that is 49 tee times and based on the ACC rate of $2500, that would be $122,500/day.

 

Even if he sold those at a rate comparable to Palmetto ($1200 per tee time), that is still $58,800 in tee time revenue per day.  My guess is that with the following he's built and interest around the course, he may price it closer to the ACC amount at least for the first few years.  

 

 

I would also guess that when members do come to play, it would be an all-in four figure fee day to stay and play.  Say $1000/night gets you lodging, F&B, and all you can play for a day.  That is a similar price for other places in an all-inclusive type of visit.  If you aren't charging dues, then you are going to pay a premium when you visit to play.  I think he's got a shot to be successful with this model.  

 

I was figuring he could pretty much guarantee 4-500k from the Masters with potential for much more as you show as I didn't think he would book it out wall to wall. I highly doubt he will go with a very high all in rate including food and beverage considering the founding members are not all millionaires (this isn't a discovery land type course with multiple comfort stations and he's going to want the profit margins from alcohol sales) and I don't think it will be anywhere near $1k a day for the members. If you're covering half your yearly operating costs from the Masters, you don't have to gouge the members on the rates when by definition 75% or more of the members will be national and likely bringing 3-7 or more guests with them. No matter how good this course is, it still has to compete with other national memberships many of which are at top 100 clubs for fairly cheap annual rates ($3-6k). I suspect it will be in line with guest fees at other top destination courses with members paying $150-250 a day for the golf and $100-200 for rooms.

[mallrat]

Wait, covering 1/2 your expenses in a month? No way. Unless the land is owned out right. From the way it sounds his initial investment will easy be north of $20 mil. 
 

- $1.5 - 2 for maintenance facilities & equipment

- $1 - 2 mil for restaurant 

- $500k - 1 mil for pro shop/cart barn

- carts - no idea

- turn stand/restrooms - no idea

- parking lot - no idea

- $250k for a well (if possible) w/pump

- $10 mil for property (low ball)

- $10 mil for design (low ball)

- $2 mil for lodging (low ball)

 

Now, none of this involves operating costs, just a fixed initial investment. So are we assuming none of these investors want to be paid back and are ok with paying on top of their initial investment for usage (I understand how you pay a buy in and dues at a CC but this is different). So unless he has cash (seriously doubt it) I can’t see how he covers that much. 
 

NOW, this is all assuming he has water rights and an adequate well. If not, WOW, paying for 500,000 gallons a water a day for how many months (I don’t know how much water needs to be run in NC or SC and that amount is a low ball).

 

[Schley]

I think he has bought the property already, no idea what it was and none of my business really.

 

Doak is designing and Goalby building it, the $10 mm figure I think is high, not sure about tree removal what water features they will have to have to relocate. Irrigation is expensive. Outside of the course and probably a trailer clubhouse or something in the beginning, he can add stuff in future years. Lodging, clubhouse etc.

 

It would be nice to have everything at once, but Aiken is not middle of nowhere Sand Hills and very close to a big city Augusta with 200,000 people. So you don't need everything at once, capital wise spend on the course. Build it and he will come.

[mallrat]

I may be way off on cost to build the course but there are so many things that go into it. Even if he has purchased the land would he have purchased it outright? I’m genuinely curious. I imagine he would have to take a loan out. 

[dcmidnight]

Its not just *national* courses to compete with - dont sleep on how many great golf courses are in the Aiken area itself. So he's competing for members as well as employees. BTW I think people who have never been involved in a private club before would be pretty surprised how quick all of the salaries and expenses add up when you get to the F&B side of the house.

 

There's also no way he's building a club like this to pack it wall to wall at ten minute tee times during Masters week. But you also have to spend money to make money. You aren't going to have national members fly in to stay in trailers. 

 

But look, again, I was stunned at how many people paid $1500 a day to hang out with him at Sweetens. So, there are obviously a lot of people out there that this kind of thing is attractive to.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by dcmidnight

[ND2005]

1 hour ago, dcmidnight said:

Its not just *national* courses to compete with - dont sleep on how many great golf courses are in the Aiken area itself. So he's competing for members as well as employees. BTW I think people who have never been involved in a private club before would be pretty surprised how quick all of the salaries and expenses add up when you get to the F&B side of the house.

 

There's also no way he's building a club like this to pack it wall to wall at ten minute tee times during Masters week. But you also have to spend money to make money. You aren't going to have national members fly in to stay in trailers. 

 

But look, again, I was stunned at how many people paid $1500 a day to hang out with him at Sweetens. So, there are obviously a lot of people out there that this kind of thing is attractive to.

 

 

$1500 is fairly standard rate for a resort course invitational tournament. I’d pay that in a heartbeat, doesn’t mean I have the cash or the interest in signing up as a founding member/investor in his golf course. 

[jpthreesticks]

I think the land was either just over or just under $1 million. 

 

[Dancin]

10 hours ago, mallrat said:

I may be way off on cost to build the course but there are so many things that go into it. Even if he has purchased the land would he have purchased it outright? I’m genuinely curious. I imagine he would have to take a loan out. 

I meant covering operating costs once everything is built. Obviously he still has a lot of capital raising ahead of him to build it.

[jjthomp2]

5 hours ago, ND2005 said:

$1500 is fairly standard rate for a resort course invitational tournament. I’d pay that in a heartbeat, doesn’t mean I have the cash or the interest in signing up as a founding member/investor in his golf course. 

calling sweetens cove a resort course is a stretch. what does one get by paying that high of an entry fee for the ringer? a ton of hats and headcovers??

[greyman09]

Replace the word dues with fees. Still there. Lots of competition in the Aiken market. Wish him the best of luck. 

[Schley]

Why the heck do you guys care if he fails, as most are predicting?  It isn't your money and you aren't going to join, so is the world that much better off finding the numerous angles to have schadenfreude for the guy for pursuing his dream of having his own course? It is his money and reputation, not yours.

 

If you aren't putting up money and not joining, observe and rout for a new golf course to be built and thrive. Aren't we all golfers here? Why be a envious debbie downer?

 

Golfers should be wanting more courses, not less.  Especially when it isn't costing you a damn penny.🙄

Edited February 4, 2021 by Schley

[mallrat]

I’m not rooting for him to fail, I just don’t think what I’ve heard is being realistic. I hope he builds it and succeeds, just trying to speak from what little experience I have in the inner workings of running a very profitable golf course. Part of which is the course is profitable, the very profitable part comes from events. 
 

Also if he got the land for anywhere near a million that sounds like an absolute steal. But maybe that is just my jaded point of view on land prices out here on the west coast.