Can forgiveness become a bad thing?

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I've said this 100x in these threads but i can't remember the last time ive hit a ball on a normal weather conditions day and TRULY been surprised by where it landed. Can usually tell as soon as it leaves the face what type of contact i made and whether it will be long / short etc...

 

 

Bingo, any decent player who plays on a regular basis pretty much knows exactly what's going to happen the minute they hit it. 

[me05501]

Obviously you can tell when you flush a shot with any club. It always feels great! 

 

The max GI clubs I've hit would give a large percentage of that same sensation even when I didn't catch the ball in the sweet spot. I'm not talking about a near-shank, but 1/8" off the center feels a lot like the center. 

 

Again, I wouldn't try to convince anyone to change clubs, but there IS a difference. 

 

[GBBM]

31 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Very unforgiving clubs can be very penile. 

Especially if you buy them at Dick’s 

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Obviously you can tell when you flush a shot with any club. It always feels great! 

 

The max GI clubs I've hit would give a large percentage of that same sensation even when I didn't catch the ball in the sweet spot. I'm not talking about a near-shank, but 1/8" off the center feels a lot like the center. 

 

Again, I wouldn't try to convince anyone to change clubs, but there IS a difference. 

 

And on a club with some help largely performs like a center hit. Are you telling me you make mid-round adjustments based off 1/8" off center hits? Give me a break lol

[pgatw]

1/8 off, wow.

[me05501]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

And on a club with some help largely performs like a center hit. Are you telling me you make mid-round adjustments based off 1/8" off center hits? Give me a break lol

 

When did I ever say I made mid-round adjustments? 

Over the course of a season, your setup and swing will change. Some people just roll with that and enjoy playing clubs that give them enough margin for error to play right through those changes. That is totally 100% AOK with me. Doesn't bother me at all. I hope those people enjoy the game as much as I do. 
 

Other people would rather get on top of any issues or changes that start to creep in. For us that's part of the challenge and also part of the fun of the game. It might mean a few more approach shots fall short into the odd greenside bunker sometimes, and we're okay with that. It's not a value judgement. It's just a personal preference. 

It's also situational. Where I live you can play golf under good conditions for about 8 months a year and under poor conditions for a couple more. I have plenty of season. If I lived up north and had a shorter season I'd probably want to play more and practice less. I'd grab whatever the most forgiving clubs were and enjoy myself more. 

Same goes for drivers. There's not much excuse for choosing a less forgiving driver. Barely anyone does. 

Again, not judging anyone. Not asking to be judged. Just saying there's clearly a difference. 

[me05501]

4 minutes ago, pgatw said:

1/8 off, wow.

 

Exactly. At that margin you're not going to feel any difference with a shovel, is my point. 

[karstens_ghost]

To me, this is a simple "yes".

 

If you come to rely on getting away with, say, toed drives, you will become accustomed to that being a "sweet spot". It's not, of course. So if you get a little bit more off, it's a terrible shot. It doesn't take much. Take a week or two off, come back, and you're a little bit off, and the bad shots are *really* bad.

 

For me, the key isn't how "big" the forgiveness is. It's about being able to get feedback from your shot that says it's right or wrong. Now "wrong" might not be too penal, and that's good. But if you can't tell the difference between a centred shot and a miss based on the outcome, that's not helpful.

 

Also, the better you get, the more easily you can tell this difference.

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, me05501 said:

 

When did I ever say I made mid-round adjustments? 

Over the course of a season, your setup and swing will change. Some people just roll with that and enjoy playing clubs that give them enough margin for error to play right through those changes. That is totally 100% AOK with me. Doesn't bother me at all. I hope those people enjoy the game as much as I do. 
 

Other people would rather get on top of any issues or changes that start to creep in. For us that's part of the challenge and also part of the fun of the game. It might mean a few more approach shots fall short into the odd greenside bunker sometimes, and we're okay with that. It's not a value judgement. It's just a personal preference. 

It's also situational. Where I live you can play golf under good conditions for about 8 months a year and under poor conditions for a couple more. I have plenty of season. If I lived up north and had a shorter season I'd probably want to play more and practice less. I'd grab whatever the most forgiving clubs were and enjoy myself more. 

Same goes for drivers. There's not much excuse for choosing a less forgiving driver. Barely anyone does. 

Again, not judging anyone. Not asking to be judged. Just saying there's clearly a difference. 

I don't care what you (or anyone else) plays, but this notion that only blades/CBs provide adequate feedback is simply not true. If you play any club long enough, you will learn exactly how you hit it, every time. The slight mishits feel less apparent on GIs clubs, well because that is the club doing it's job. If the weight is less concentrated, the sweet spot is inherently larger, thus the twisting effect of hitting off center is less extreme, but it absolutely is still there.

 

These threads would end much quicker if folks were just truthful and said "I play blades, mostly because I like the way they look and feel" instead of trying to convince a forum of people that the feedback they provide is actually beneficial to their game. 

[chipa]

46 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

 

 

These threads would end much quicker if folks were just truthful and said "I play blades, mostly because I like the way they look and feel" instead of trying to convince a forum of people that the feedback they provide is actually beneficial to their game. 

 

Most pros and better players prefer blades or small cb's designed to look like GI clubs because of their sponsors but actuality play closer to blades for a reason. Since their goal is to win tournaments and money I think we can assume these clubs are beneficial to their game.

 

Just because someones swing isn't as refined as a pro doesn't mean they can't see benefits from smaller irons, like myself for example. My blades are as small as they come and short too, and it's possible I have never seen anything any smaller come out since I started playing in the 90's. They are cheap and won't impress anyone with their looks, but I have never seen a club set up so pretty. They are also 304 steel, which feels as soft as some blades I have played. I hit these irons the best I've hit anything and when I hit a good shot it stays in my mind and reminds me to put a good swing on the ball the next time which gives me a lot of confidence, which is a lot more important to my swing than anything else.

[Gsea]

Acer XV tour's are blades?

 

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

Exactly. At that margin you're not going to feel any difference with a shovel, is my point. 

 

Firstly I wasn't suggesting that a player can tell as little as 1/8 of an inch. I'm suggesting he can tell "low toe", "high heel", etc. not necessarily an eighth away from,,,,,,, wherever.

 

But low toe, high heel etc. is enough to tell the player roughly where he missed it and act accordingly.

 

I might also suggest that 1/8 of an inch is probably still within the "effective" sweet spot of the "shovel" and therefore wouldn't feel any different. It very well may be detected 1/8 away with a blade.

 

Then again, the shovel's outcome wouldn't be noticeably different either. And that's pretty much the point of the shovel anyway, yes ?

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Yeah but no, you make it seem like everything feels the same off a Gi club, and that simply isnt the case.

 

If you are a decent player, you know when you absolutely middle one and you know when you missed, the only difference between the two is the outcome of the shot, forgiving clubs may turn out ok and very unforgiving clubs can be very penile. Heck you can even make those determinations with the largest most forgiving club in the bag (driver), so it's absurd to think you can't make those distinctions with an iron. You just need to play them enough to figure it out, since a mishit with one club is going to feel/sound different than a mishit with another. You don't need the club to vibrate out of your hand to figure out if you hit one thin

 

Heh, heh heh, you said "penile". Heh heh heh,,,,,, 

 

[chipa]

47 minutes ago, Gsea said:

Acer XV tour's are blades?

 

 

 

That's the Acer XV which is larger and has a lot of offset. The Acer XV Pro is a smaller cb and  and the Acer XV is the smallest and is definitely a blade, with no hollow parts like the other ones, only more weight in the bottom that is common with some type of blade designs even from decades ago. Also, it has very little offset, even less than many Hogan, Mizuno, Muira, Titelist, Callaway, etc. blades that I have looked at.

 

I have all three Acer XV irons for me and my two adult daughters. Here is a profile of the Tour compared to the Pro from Hireko Golf, the manufacturer of the clubs.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by chipa

[ChipNRun]

Whether it's a 45 year marriage (as of Aug. 23) or one's golf game, forgiveness is absolute necessary to get you over the rough spots.

[Jifmoli]

I think Bladehunter says it best: if you THINK your clubs are holding you back, then they will. Case in point: I had the best net score at the club championship a few years back playing cgi but the next year couldn't hit them for ****. Just lost confidence and replaced them. 

 

The focus thing I agree with chippa13: a bad swing will result in a bad shot, and if not you just got lucky. I swing my old bladed pw the same as my gi other irons and can shank, blade or top my GIs with the best of them.. If there was a major for doing that I would have beaten Jack's record already. 

 

Lastly, if you're a good golfer you can hit anything. Indeed, plenty of pro's playing cgi clubs. Check out Golf with Gen on YT for example. G410s

 

 

[Popeye64]

If I play with an extremely forgiving club I let nad habits create into my swing. I still get away with good results but I start to regress and get sloppy. 

I prefer a club that's a bit harder to play but far from a pure butter knife. I prefer a club that rewards you for a pure strike, in feel and performance. I find a club that is super forgiving tends to lack feel and feedback. 

Everyone is different and finding that balance can get expensive and lead to a bad case of Club Ho.... but in a good way. 

[braincramp52]

Playing the wrong shaft will create more problems than the style of iron itself.

[golfinbrad]

I agree braincramp52.  I said it earlier pick the irons you like at address then get the right shaft.  A weight and/or profile change can make a world of difference.

[setter02]

16 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

If you come to rely on getting away with, say, toed drives, you will become accustomed to that being a "sweet spot".

 

Just embarrassingly bad to actually believe this...

[me05501]

17 hours ago, Krt22 said:

 

These threads would end much quicker if folks were just truthful and said "I play blades, mostly because I like the way they look and feel" instead of trying to convince a forum of people that the feedback they provide is actually beneficial to their game. 

 

But that's just not true, which is probably why it doesn't play out that way.

For one thing, almost no one plays "blades" these days and true blades aren't even offered in the marketplace. We all play a version of "game improvement" clubs, whether it's perimeter weighted or weight shifted down and back or out of the hosel and into the sole or whatever. Almost every iron you can find on the shelves today is far more forgiving than what was available 40 years ago, even the "players clubs." 
 

Sole designs are radically different between a forged cavity back and an Max GI shovel. Top lines are very different. Offset is a huge difference. Ballflight is often very different. 

Some players need/want/get used to a lot of offset in their irons and that effects everything from ball position to their swing to how their game transitions from their highest-lofted iron to their lowest-lofted wedge. 

Some players like seeing a thick topline behind the ball because it helps them feel more powerful or in control or helps with their alignment. Others don't. 

 

Some players want to throw the ball very high up in the air and have it land softly. Other players control the ball using spin. One isn't better than the other, but it's different. 

I don't think anyone is here to try to convince anyone to play a different iron. The OP's question was whether too much forgiveness can hold a player back. Some of us are trying to answer that question from our own experience. Welcome to the internet. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by me05501

[golfinbrad]

Well said.  Yeah the blades from the earlier 80s would change some swings.  

[chippa13]

29 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

But that's just not true, which is probably why it doesn't play out that way.

For one thing, almost no one plays "blades" these days and true blades aren't even offered in the marketplace. We all play a version of "game improvement" clubs, whether it's perimeter weighted or weight shifted down and back or out of the hosel and into the sole or whatever. Almost every iron you can find on the shelves today is far more forgiving than what was available 40 years ago, even the "players clubs." 
 

Sole designs are radically different between a forged cavity back and an Max GI shovel. Top lines are very different. Offset is a huge difference. Ballflight is often very different. 

Some players need/want/get used to a lot of offset in their irons and that effects everything from ball position to their swing to how their game transitions from their highest-lofted iron to their lowest-lofted wedge. 

Some players like seeing a thick topline behind the ball because it helps them feel more powerful or in control or helps with their alignment. Others don't. 

 

Some players want to throw the ball very high up in the air and have it land softly. Other players control the ball using spin. One isn't better than the other, but it's different. 

I don't think anyone is here to try to convince anyone to play a different iron. The OP's question was whether too much forgiveness can hold a player back. Some of us are trying to answer that question from our own experience. Welcome to the internet. 

You forgot about the high cap guys who like to be forced to "focus", which seems to clutter up much of these threads............and makes me chuckle a little.

[chipa]

15 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

You forgot about the high cap guys who like to be forced to "focus", which seems to clutter up much of these threads............and makes me chuckle a little.

 

It's presumptuous to speak on others behalf or assume that they are disingenuous.

Edited November 4, 2020 by chipa

[chipa]

I already said this but here goes again - most pro play small blades or cb in their scoring irons for a reason, after all they don't need to impress anyone they do it for performance.

 

Also, just because a pro plays a supposed GI iron does not mean it is the same spec off the shelf, this is an old trick that has been around for at least 20 years to sell clubs. There is a reason most pro don't play stock GI's.

Edited November 4, 2020 by chipa

[chipa]

I am wondering if the shape of the flight of guys who prefer GI is mostly out to in as opposed to guys who prefer blades or players irons, which I expect is from the inside.

Edited November 4, 2020 by chipa

[chippa13]

24 minutes ago, chipa said:

I already said this but here goes again - most pro play small blades or cb in their scoring irons for a reason, after all they don't need to impress anyone they do it for performance.

 

Also, just because a pro plays a supposed GI iron does not mean it is the same spec off the shelf, this is an old trick that has been around for at least 20 years to sell clubs. There is a reason most pro don't play atcok GI's.

You do also realize that just because a pro plays a small blade or cb does not mean it is the same spec off the shelf. Anyone who plays something just because of a perceived pro usage is making a mistake.

[chippa13]

26 minutes ago, chipa said:

I am wondering if the shape of the flight of guys who prefer GI is mostly out to in as opposed to guys who prefer blades or players irons, which I expect is from the inside.

If you're playing a draw off of an outside to in swing then you're going to be spending a lot of time in the trees.

[chipa]

Just now, chippa13 said:

You do also realize that just because a pro plays a small blade or cb does not mean it is the same spec off the shelf. Anyone who plays something just because of a perceived pro usage is making a mistake.

 

Sure but then again how small can you go and how little offset can you have?

 

Also, whether you belive it or not some guys play blades not to imitate pros but because it is good for their game. Just like pro play small clubs for a reason. BTW, my small blades look a little cheap and I'm sure no pro plays them

[chipa]

1 minute ago, chippa13 said:

If you're playing a draw off of an outside to in swing then you're going to be spending a lot of time in the trees.

 

Could be but a GI iron the size of a shovel with 6mm of offset won't help my snap hooks that's for sure - as I have already found out.