Can forgiveness become a bad thing?

[chippa13]

8 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Could be but a GI iron the size of a shovel with 6mm of offset won't help my snap hooks that's for sure - as I have already found out.

Out of all the possible causes for a snap hook, the club head shouldn't even be a part of the list.

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Out of all the possible causes for a snap hook, the club head shouldn't even be a part of the list.

 

I think it seems clear you don't suffer from snap hooking because most guys who do, including pros like Ricky Fowler, go for clubs with little to no offset and  on the smaller side as well and absolutely avoid GI irons like the plague - for good reason.

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

But that's just not true, which is probably why it doesn't play out that way.

For one thing, almost no one plays "blades" these days and true blades aren't even offered in the marketplace. We all play a version of "game improvement" clubs, whether it's perimeter weighted or weight shifted down and back or out of the hosel and into the sole or whatever. Almost every iron you can find on the shelves today is far more forgiving than what was available 40 years ago, even the "players clubs." 
 

Sole designs are radically different between a forged cavity back and an Max GI shovel. Top lines are very different. Offset is a huge difference. Ballflight is often very different. 

Some players need/want/get used to a lot of offset in their irons and that effects everything from ball position to their swing to how their game transitions from their highest-lofted iron to their lowest-lofted wedge. 

Some players like seeing a thick topline behind the ball because it helps them feel more powerful or in control or helps with their alignment. Others don't. 

 

Some players want to throw the ball very high up in the air and have it land softly. Other players control the ball using spin. One isn't better than the other, but it's different. 

I don't think anyone is here to try to convince anyone to play a different iron. The OP's question was whether too much forgiveness can hold a player back. Some of us are trying to answer that question from our own experience. Welcome to the internet. 

 

I'm certainly not going to speak for KRT as he does fine by himself, but I believe he is primarily, if not exclusively, referring to the HIGH handicappers telling "us" blades help them focus more.

 

The reason this is borderline laughable is because few of us have seen this mythical 20 handicapper that has anything but poor swing mechanics. And while I suppose it IS possible that focusing helps even this player, because of terrible mechanics the help is likely to be marginal at best. 

 

Now IF this guy intends to get serious about the game, fine. Bring those blades to an instructor and learn how to swing a golf club. And whether it takes a week, or 10, or 100 to learn how to swing the club properly and you still love those blades, by all means keep hitting them.

 

But the vast majority of those 20 'cappers, even those interested enough to be here on WRX, are casual players with no more lofty expectations than to get a little better by playing more - and they will - get a little better due to sheer repetition. 

 

If they don't intend to work seriously at the game but still want to score better, most of them will score better with GIs.

 

Now, as for you club descriptions I'll be brief (you're all welcome BTW). The blade as *I* define it, is a single and solid hunk of metal whose back is forged into a mostly regular shape; some bulge not a problem and with NO perimeter weighting. Even the old Mizuno MP-60s are a player's CB.

 

Shaping the blade or changing the hosel size moves the sweet spot thereby making one blade suit a particular player while another might not, but does not enlarge it, at least not in any significant way. Therefore the "requirement" of pure strikes is more important.

 

Hence those features would not, IMO, constitute "game improvement". Perimeter weighting does enlarge the SS. That IS game improvement.

 

That said, I agree. Golfers should play whatever they want for whatever reasons they want.

[SugarLandGolfer]

I’m not sure if large heads with more forgiveness will help other people, but I’ve got a fitting with CC on Saturday and I’m looking forward to trying hybrid irons. While I’ve made strides this summer in ball striking and now hit the ball straight most of the time with significantly better ball striking, I want to make this game as easy as possible, and I’m not above using ugly technology to do it. I don’t care what the club looks like as long as it gets me closer to the hole more consistently. I don’t need a smaller iron to focus on my swing.

[me05501]

2 hours ago, chippa13 said:

You do also realize that just because a pro plays a small blade or cb does not mean it is the same spec off the shelf. Anyone who plays something just because of a perceived pro usage is making a mistake.

 

The biggest distinction between our clubs and the pros is that their clubs are ALWAYS fit very specifically to their needs, including being adjusted over time as their needs change. 

I think it would be really amazing if we could all be fit into clubs without seeing the clubs we were being fit into. I realize this is impossible but a man can dream. 

[setter02]

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

The biggest distinction between our clubs and the pros is that their clubs are ALWAYS fit very specifically to their needs, including being adjusted over time as their needs change. 

I think it would be really amazing if we could all be fit into clubs without seeing the clubs we were being fit into. I realize this is impossible but a man can dream. 

 

 

Wait, you mean you guys don't have 3-5 sets of irons made up, all a little different to test out which you prefer 🤨

[chipa]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

The reason this is borderline laughable is because few of us have seen this mythical 20 handicapper that has anything but poor swing mechanics. And while I suppose it IS possible that focusing helps even this player, because of terrible mechanics the help is likely to be marginal at best. 

 

 

 

Sometimes you just have to think outside of the box. I am a high hc'er for sure but have played to a single digit hc too. Also, my swing speed has been close to 130 mph when I was younger and I'm quite a small guy and there is no way I have gotten there w/o good mechanics. The problem is my swing comes and goes like the wind and I have been on a mission to find out why.

 

I also suffer from snap hooks, and what apparently guys who don't do this can't comprehend is why an iron with a huge head and lots of offset make people who think hook hook even more.

 

My advice to you my friend is spend time in the shoes of others before assuming. Take care.

[chippa13]

6 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Sometimes you just have to think outside of the box. I am a high hc'er for sure but have played to a single digit hc too. Also, my swing speed has been close to 130 mph when I was younger and I'm quite a small guy and there is no way I have gotten there w/o good mechanics. The problem is my swing comes and goes like the wind and I have been on a mission to find out why.

 

I also suffer from snap hooks, and what apparently guys who don't do this can't comprehend is why an iron with a huge head and lots of offset make people who think hook hook even more.

 

My advice to you my friend is spend time in the shoes of others before assuming. Take care.

A swing speed 17 mph higher than the tour average of 113 mph? Impressive.

[chipa]

14 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

A swing speed 17 mph higher than the tour average of 113 mph? Impressive.

 

Thanks, but it's not rare, there's lots of guys who swing faster that have competed in long drive competitions but can't play to a single digit hc.

[braincramp52]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Thanks, but it's not rare, there's lots of guys who swing faster that have competed in long drive competitions but can't play to a single digit hc.

 

It's not only rare, you're damn near a unicorn! 33 years playing this game I've never encountered a 15 handicap with a 130 mph SS on the course.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Sometimes you just have to think outside of the box. I am a high hc'er for sure but have played to a single digit hc too. Also, my swing speed has been close to 130 mph when I was younger and I'm quite a small guy and there is no way I have gotten there w/o good mechanics. The problem is my swing comes and goes like the wind and I have been on a mission to find out why.

 

I also suffer from snap hooks, and what apparently guys who don't do this can't comprehend is why an iron with a huge head and lots of offset make people who think hook hook even more.

 

My advice to you my friend is spend time in the shoes of others before assuming. Take care.

 

Firstly I am not assuming anything. I gave you MY observation and opinion.

 

Secondly, I've seen 40 handicappers connect on 1 out of 30 swings. Think blind,,,,,,, squirrel,,,,,,, nut,,,,,,,,,, And that one swing doesn't mean their swing is like Rory's.

 

So frankly, if your swing "comes and goes like the wind" you either have physical issues and/or poor swing mechanics.

 

Oh,,,,,, and IMO,,,,,, 

[chipa]

2 hours ago, braincramp52 said:

 

It's not only rare, you're damn near a unicorn! 33 years playing this game I've never encountered a 15 handicap with a 130 mph SS on the course.

 

I can't manage that anymore, more than likely 110-115, I'm 55 after all with back issues from surgery. When I do get the sequence right people like to watch. I also generally was the longest driver when I played as a single if I had some semblance of a swing that day.

[chipa]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

So frankly, if your swing "comes and goes like the wind" you either have physical issues and/or poor swing mechanics.

 

Oh,,,,,, and IMO,,,,,, 

I do have swing mechanics issues, I've said that before. When I do get it right its fun to watch even if it is only close to 300.

[Pepperturbo]

On 11/4/2020 at 9:40 AM, chippa13 said:

Out of all the possible causes for a snap hook, the club head shouldn't even be a part of the list.

 

Have to differ... I've always hit a relatively straight ball without offset, help not needed.  From 2006 to 2015 I played original X-Forged with minimal offset.  Though they were good clubs I decided it was time to upgrade so bought a set of 2-PW Taylormade Rsi TP irons.  I knew they had more offset and stronger lofts but I like their look and though I could adjust after installing my PX 6.0 in them. 

 

I still have those irons, they are nice looking.  I let guests use them.  I didn't have them but a week and encountered a hooking problem.  The only time I didn't hook was when I took an inordinate amount of time to adjust my setup and hands to accommodate the offset.

 

As is said, any good golfer should be able to hit any club, and it's true.  Except when I am under $$$ game or tournament pressure all I think about the shot plan, setup comes natural to me.  I kept them in the bag for about a year.  Hence, I bought 716CB's and was happy again, and been that way ever since.  I love my 620's.  It's my belief irons adjust to us, not the other way around.  

[Tackygolfer]

I am a golfer with tennis background too. IMHO, tennis rackets are a lot more standardised than golf clubs and rackets don't determine your level of play. Golfing world preaches exact opposite, ie beginners and pros should use different kind of clubs. I used to believe that mantra until I actually tried using blades. I am about 20 handycap. Blades are just as easy (or hard) to hit as game improvement irons. No difference at all. Golf is a lot more image conscious than tennis. I put it down to that. 

[Jc0]

5 hours ago, Tackygolfer said:

I am a golfer with tennis background too. IMHO, tennis rackets are a lot more standardised than golf clubs and rackets don't determine your level of play. Golfing world preaches exact opposite, ie beginners and pros should use different kind of clubs. I used to believe that mantra until I actually tried using blades. I am about 20 handycap. Blades are just as easy (or hard) to hit as game improvement irons. No difference at all. Golf is a lot more image conscious than tennis. I put it down to that. 

 

Tennis rackets are just as defined as golf clubs are. High level tennis players play control oriented low power rackets, high level golfers use high control, low power irons. In both situations by playing the control option they give up some forgiveness to be more precise. You are a 20 handicap. I'm not sure your swing would be good enough to tell the difference between the two irons at this point. This is coming from someone who is around scratch and had a tennis rating of 4.5 when I was playing.

[Fairway14]

7 hours ago, Tackygolfer said:

I am a golfer with tennis background too. IMHO, tennis rackets are a lot more standardised than golf clubs and rackets don't determine your level of play. Golfing world preaches exact opposite, ie beginners and pros should use different kind of clubs. I used to believe that mantra until I actually tried using blades. I am about 20 handycap. Blades are just as easy (or hard) to hit as game improvement irons. No difference at all. Golf is a lot more image conscious than tennis. I put it down to that. 

 

All you've written here is correct, good post.

[Shilgy]

9 hours ago, Tackygolfer said:

I am a golfer with tennis background too. IMHO, tennis rackets are a lot more standardised than golf clubs and rackets don't determine your level of play. Golfing world preaches exact opposite, ie beginners and pros should use different kind of clubs. I used to believe that mantra until I actually tried using blades. I am about 20 handycap. Blades are just as easy (or hard) to hit as game improvement irons. No difference at all. Golf is a lot more image conscious than tennis. I put it down to that. 

You are absolutely correct.  
 

We will give it a moment for @nsxguyto calm down lol.

 

 

If you, as a 20 handicap, barely make contact on the perimeter of the club it really will not matter what type of club you use. The result will be awful.  I find it difficult to believe, however, that as a solid tennis player with decent hand eye coordination you are a 20 handicap if you play golf much at all.  If you use your tennis move and make presentable contact game improvement irons would give you better results. 

[golfinbrad]

Basing players iron types on handicap is like basing shaft flex on swing speed only.  You can be a higher handicap and make solid contact.  They can lose stroke with the short game or bad decision.  You can also be a lower handicapper needing help.  

 

Going back to what was said several times.  Find a club head the fits you eye and focus on the right shaft.  

[setter02]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You are absolutely correct.  
 

We will give it a moment for @nsxguyto calm down lol.

 

 

If you, as a 20 handicap, barely make contact on the perimeter of the club it really will not matter what type of club you use. The result will be awful.  I find it difficult to believe, however, that as a solid tennis player with decent hand eye coordination you are a 20 handicap if you play golf much at all.  If you use your tennis move and make presentable contact game improvement irons would give you better results. 

 

This isn't true at all tho...  It's literally one of the easiest things in golf to debunk...

[Shilgy]

16 minutes ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

This isn't true at all tho...  It's literally one of the easiest things in golf to debunk...

Tell us why then...not just claim it’s wrong. 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Tell us why then...not just claim it’s wrong. 

Unless you are claiming he is a wonderful ballstriker but just can’t putt? That type of unicorn?

[LeoLeo99]

On 11/4/2020 at 2:43 PM, me05501 said:

 

The biggest distinction between our clubs and the pros is that their clubs are ALWAYS fit very specifically to their needs, including being adjusted over time as their needs change. 

I think it would be really amazing if we could all be fit into clubs without seeing the clubs we were being fit into. I realize this is impossible but a man can dream. 

Don't over think this.  They are playing against the highest level competition.  Any touring pro can play your clubs and break par at your local course.  Unless your local course is Oakmont. Fit clubs is not what separates them from us.   It's all about the swing. 

[Tackygolfer]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You are absolutely correct.  
 

We will give it a moment for @nsxguyto calm down lol.

 

 

If you, as a 20 handicap, barely make contact on the perimeter of the club it really will not matter what type of club you use. The result will be awful.  I find it difficult to believe, however, that as a solid tennis player with decent hand eye coordination you are a 20 handicap if you play golf much at all.  If you use your tennis move and make presentable contact game improvement irons would give you better results. 

Oh, my 20 handy comes from my short game. I started playing golf last year and I find short game really not easy. My iron play is actually pretty good, my coach says my ability to control the head is extremely good. 

[Tackygolfer]

9 hours ago, Jc0 said:

 

Tennis rackets are just as defined as golf clubs are. High level tennis players play control oriented low power rackets, high level golfers use high control, low power irons. In both situations by playing the control option they give up some forgiveness to be more precise. You are a 20 handicap. I'm not sure your swing would be good enough to tell the difference between the two irons at this point. This is coming from someone who is around scratch and had a tennis rating of 4.5 when I was playing.

You might be right my swing is probably not as good as someone who's been golf playing for decades. I am still learning. It's my observation that using blades or GIs make no difference to my game. I do feel the differences though. My Jpx 919 hot metal pro feels and sounds like a little explosion happening when I hit the sweet spot. Whereas my mp67 or Mp18 SC feel a lot more subdued and I like that better. Isn't golf about enjoying the game, not snobbery? If Blades feel better and make your game no worse, why not use them? 

[Tackygolfer]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Unless you are claiming he is a wonderful ballstriker but just can’t putt? That type of unicorn?

I must be that unicorn 😉

[Shilgy]

5 minutes ago, Tackygolfer said:

I must be that unicorn 😉

Based on your other post though it makes no sense, but then that’s coming from a guy that thinks the short game is the easy part. Think of your basic chip as a drop shot. Not like a short crisp volley. It is just a calm relaxed chip, not a short backstroke and stab.

 

Edited to add....the long game, aka ballstriking, cannot be that strong. To be a 20 with a bad short gameI would bet you average at most 5 greens in regulation per round. And that is a generous estimate. A strong long game would be little or no penalty strokes. So even if you miss every green you would make bogey on most missed greens. Clearly you are not doing either.

But that is okay for now. You seem to currently think of yourself as a tennis player, not as a golfer.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shilgy

[me05501]

2 hours ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Don't over think this.  They are playing against the highest level competition.  Any touring pro can play your clubs and break par at your local course.  Unless your local course is Oakmont. Fit clubs is not what separates them from us.   It's all about the swing. 

As I stated I’m referring to the difference between their gear and ours, not their game and ours. 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Based on your other post though it makes no sense, but then that’s coming from a guy that thinks the short game is the easy part. Think of your basic chip as a drop shot. Not like a short crisp volley. It is just a calm relaxed chip, not a short backstroke and stab.

 

Edited to add....the long game, aka ballstriking, cannot be that strong. To be a 20 with a bad short gameI would bet you average at most 5 greens in regulation per round. And that is a generous estimate. A strong long game would be little or no penalty strokes. So even if you miss every green you would make bogey on most missed greens. Clearly you are not doing either.

But that is okay for now. You seem to currently think of yourself as a tennis player, not as a golfer.

 

 

I mean seriously. Here's a guy that started a year ago and knows everything about everything. 

 

First he says there's no difference ('tween tennis rackets and golf clubs) ,,,,,, and next thing you know he's agreeing with the guy who refuted his claim.

 

Now he's the "unicorn" 20 handicapper that just can't putt. Puts him right up there with our buddy @bladehunter,,,,,,,,, Oh, except that bladehunter is scratch. 

 

Somehow I think it's not just putting,,,,,,,,,,,,  

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You are absolutely correct.  
 

We will give it a moment for @nsxguyto calm down lol.

 

 

If you, as a 20 handicap, barely make contact on the perimeter of the club it really will not matter what type of club you use. The result will be awful.  I find it difficult to believe, however, that as a solid tennis player with decent hand eye coordination you are a 20 handicap if you play golf much at all.  If you use your tennis move and make presentable contact game improvement irons would give you better results. 

 

No, actually he's not as @Jc0 so kindly pointed out.

 

When I learned to play tennis I started with an oversize rackets just as the instructor(s) suggested. It ain't no fun not getting the ball over the net but 1 out of 10 swings because you can't find the sweet spot. Hmmmmmm,,,,,, sounds a bit like SGI irons. 

 

Once I learned a bit and got to a 2.0 or so I moved to the midsize racket, a nice combination of power and control. Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,, sounds a bit like GI, maybe even PCB, irons. 

 

Never got passed 4.5 but I do understand many of the pros mostly play midsize while a few play smaller heads (blades ?) because THEY can find the sweet spot time after time and don't need the extra power of the larger rackets. Hmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,, sounds a bit like (golf) blades. 

 

Now let's see here. What are the commonalities ? Oh, riiiiiight. FORGIVENESS, because beginners CAN'T hit the sweet spot with any sort of consistency and it's no fun at all playing like that.

 

Wow, whadya know ? Excepting power (of the rackets), coincidences abound. 

 

And tsk, tsk, my friend. How disingenuous of you suggesting that ANYBODY is talking about making contact on the perimeter of the club. 

 

Anybody suggesting a lesser player/beginner might play GIs because of forgiveness certainly isn't talking about hitting the club on the perimeter of the face, they're talking about missing the sweet spot.

 

Shame on you.