Swing Weight - Suggestions

[Exactice808]

Hey Gang..... I have a question and discussion.

 

 

1) I like to tinker.... so this is a tinker questions.  The easy answer is to go to a shop and have it professionally done. But I want to mess around as I have a new gamer set and these are my older clubs.

 

2)I bought a new gamer set up of Sub70s  The Subs felt heavier.  I put them on a scale, they average about 15gram's lighter than my prior gamers. Alarm bells....

 

3) I did the online swing weight calculator.  Sub 70's came out D2/D3 all very close.  This got me more scared as if the Sub70s were right what the hell happened to my prior gamers.

 

4) Measured up the Cobra Amp Cell pros first.... All of them D0. CRAP!

 

5) Measured up the AP2 with the nippons (1150gh Stiff).  They are between C5 &C7 double crap.  Factory shafts were X100 all D2/3's (Have the X100 pulls all have the swing weight plugs)  so when I had the Nippons put in they didnt even measure the freaking swing weights...(partly why I dont want to go back to a shop)

 

6) My Taylormade MC 4&5 iron I ordered on EBAY,  C5 and C8.   I had some tungsten putty and extra lead tape. I got the 4iron to D2, but ran out of stuff and got the 5 iron to D0 at least to get them playable.

 

 

Questions.

 

1) Cobra Amp Cell irons are D0.  Need to increase by 2 swing points to get to D2,  that's adding 4grams of lead tape to the irons.  

 

2) The AP2's though is 7 swing points or 14grams to the head. at minimum

 

3) The MC's again are close, but I added a bunch of putty.  It looks...bleh... But at this point I needed something to play with.  I am actually considering Call Sub70 and just ordering the 2 CB's, But I do really like my TM MC's

 

 

OK So.... I dont really have material yet, but I can hit up amazon and ebay to get what I need.  Should I just pull the heads and redo the swing weight with plugs?

 

Could I dump lead/filings/whatever down the shaft and plug it with a cork?  But 14gram sounds like a lot?

 

Is it better to just take it apart and use legit plugs?

 

 

Discussion,

 

I dont want to pull the heads off if I dont have too.   I am browsing the net.... looking for options and "brochanic" savvy options.

 

The generic Inside diameter is about 8mm.  I have a bunch of fishing split shot lead, I think they should be about the diameter I can jam down the shaft? could that work?  Any crafty DIY options to fix this messed up swing weights without pulling the heads?

 

 

 

Further discussion.  To help me understand something especially the AP2s

 

Stock AP2 were Dynamic Golds.  130gram.  Factory putting in the X100 doesn't change anything right? 130grams period. (Factory swing weight was correct)

 

I swapped out the X100 for Nippon 1150GH stiff.  These are 115gram shafts.   This would be an obvious 15gram  shaft weight difference. (Lighter)

 

The rules of thumb though is 9 grams from the shaft would move it 2pts.  So even @ 15grams the swing weight should have only really moved from D2/D3 to D1/D0 at worse.  BUT again these swing weights are at C5-C7.  Thats a massive amount of move?

 

Now knowing that its about 14 gram average i need to add the weight back to the head to get the desired D2 swing weight, I am basically now negating the 115gram lighter shafts I had to begin with right?  The Idea of going 1150GH was of course the flex but also trying a lighter weight shaft... If I have to add back 14grams to get the swing weight right, What gives??

 

 

am I missing something here? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Exactice808

[jvincent]

First off, if you really want to tinker, buy one of the less expensive swing weight scales. The calculators are pretty good, but the scale is best.

 

What grips are on the different clubs? That will have an effect on feel and measured swingweight.

[Exactice808]

9 hours ago, jvincent said:

First off, if you really want to tinker, buy one of the less expensive swing weight scales. The calculators are pretty good, but the scale is best.

 

What grips are on the different clubs? That will have an effect on feel and measured swingweight.

Ive been looking at the swing weights scale.  had a couple cheap ones  but again tinker... so kinda like balancing the club and doing the measurements and then the swing weight calculator online.  But I have been looking LOL!

 

As for the grips I was thinking about messing with them... For now though they are the standards golf pride tour velvet grips.  Nothing exotic or special. Just standard. on all my clubs. Cobras, AP2s and Sub70s

Edited November 6, 2020 by Exactice808

[Fairway14]

Shaft weight is relatively insignificant to swing weight. The primary factors to swing weight are head weight, shaft length, and grip weight.

If you want a heavier swing weight your options are to add head weight, add shaft length, or reduce grip weight.

Online swing weight calculators are not accurate.

 

 

Buy this GolfWorks swing weight scale, $55.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-economy-swingweight-scale/p/vswc/?country=US?country=US&gclid=CjwKCAiA4o79BRBvEiwAjteoYHLzLuoAEMREptlZ5vnHUguxENwkarPStpkuDfetD2bWPYLDudI-VBoCY8wQAvD_BwE

[Nessism]

Shaft balance point can have an impact on swingweight, as can grip weight.  

 

Agree with getting a swingweight scale.

[Noodler]

Along with shaft balance point differences, you're also incorrect regarding the shaft weight differences.  The shaft weights stated in the spec are for UNCUT shafts.  The actual difference is based on the cut weight of the shafts which is less (dependent obviously on the cut length and where the shaft "carries" its weight).

[Exactice808]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Shaft weight is relatively insignificant to swing weight. The primary factors to swing weight are head weight, shaft length, and grip weight.

If you want a heavier swing weight your options are to add head weight, add shaft length, or reduce grip weight.

Online swing weight calculators are not accurate.

 

 

Buy this GolfWorks swing weight scale, $55.

 

https://www.golfworks.com/the-golfworks-economy-swingweight-scale/p/vswc/?country=US?country=US&gclid=CjwKCAiA4o79BRBvEiwAjteoYHLzLuoAEMREptlZ5vnHUguxENwkarPStpkuDfetD2bWPYLDudI-VBoCY8wQAvD_BwE

Exactly my question.

 

If the shaft weight is insignificant,  How is the Stock X100 from Titleist D2/D3 yet the current form with the 1150GH's C5-C7.  at worst that is possible 8 swing weight points off, just by changing the shafts.  (also again disappointed with the shop that I had this done didnt even bother to check...)

 

That is my curiosity at this point how could the clubs be so far off?

 

 

Wow I did NOT see that swing weight scale that cheap..... putting in the order.

 

Im curious to know why the swing weight calculator is not accurate?  Based on the data I have collected it seems pretty accurate to spot the significant differences in the sets that I mentioned?

 

1) Accurately measure total weight, I have 3 scales that I have used (2 of which are for reloading, so they are extremely accurate as they measure in "grains" to the thousandths.  And the postage scale which is highly accurate in grams based on the test weights that I have.

 

2) Accurately measure the balance point

 

3) Plug in the number?

 

Anyways though the swing weight scale is cheap!  Thanks again.   Regardless of the accuracy at this point the AP2s are the worst of the clubs.... to the question portion....outside of removing the heads and savvy way of adding weight without having to load 14grams of lead tape LOL?

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Exactice808

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, Noodler said:

Along with shaft balance point differences, you're also incorrect regarding the shaft weight differences.  The shaft weights stated in the spec are for UNCUT shafts.  The actual difference is based on the cut weight of the shafts which is less (dependent obviously on the cut length and where the shaft "carries" its weight).

Sorry for the confusion yes, I understand the cut/Raw weight.

 

The point,  is the PW in the X100 and PW in the 1150GH cut to PW length should be 15grams difference.  (whatever the cut weight is example, 100gram in the X100 and 85gram in the 1150GH.  Shaft for shaft should all be reflexive right? 

 

this should be pretty close?  How could the swing weight points be SO off by 6-8 swing weight points?  BTW these are the same grips, they were pulled off from the X100 and put on the 1150GH's so it cant be a grip issue?

 

[PorkChopExpress]

There’s swingweight and also overall weight 

just makes the tinkering so much more lol

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Questions.

 

1) Cobra Amp Cell irons are D0.  Need to increase by 2 swing points to get to D2,  that's adding 4grams of lead tape to the irons.  

 

Why do you think you need to get  them to D2?     The fact that you only said "oh crap" after measuring them could be an important warning sign.   If there was no problem when playing the clubs and you didn't know there was a problem until after you measured them, then it's much more likely that the problem is not the the clubs but your perception of the measured value.   Of course I'm assuming you had played them before measuring them.

 

Either way, swing weight for any new set or club should always be adjusted by feel on the range - not by values on a swing weight scale.   For irons you can do it for a mid iron and then use the scale for the rest of the set.  But for woods/hybrids - it should only be done on the range.

 

 

 

Quote

OK So.... I dont really have material yet, but I can hit up amazon and ebay to get what I need.  Should I just pull the heads and redo the swing weight with plugs?

 

Could I dump lead/filings/whatever down the shaft and plug it with a cork?  But 14gram sounds like a lot?

...

am I missing something here?

 

For steel shafts, either tip weights or powder and cork will work equally well.  But yes 14 gm is a lot.   Tip weights max out around 10 gm.  You might want to double check the playing lengths to make sure they didn't come out shorter than you expected.

 

Probably missing playing length differences.     Sounds to me like you got a lightweight set of heads intended for an over-length build.   It's usually a good idea to get the raw head weights when reshafting.

 

Also shaft balance point changes make the shaft weight calculation pointless.   Most lighter shafts swing weight very close to the heavier DG's without needing any extra head weight.  The designers of the shaft know about swing weight and typically will adjust the balance point accordingly.

 

 

11 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Shaft weight is relatively insignificant to swing weight.

 

This is not universally true.   Different individuals have different sensitivities to both static weight and swing weight.   For some swing weight might be a bit more important for others static weight might.  Some can play a wide range for either while for others both might be very important.   Everyone should take the time to figure out their own sensitivities and ranges.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Noodler]

7 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Sorry for the confusion yes, I understand the cut/Raw weight.

 

The point,  is the PW in the X100 and PW in the 1150GH cut to PW length should be 15grams difference.  (whatever the cut weight is example, 100gram in the X100 and 85gram in the 1150GH.  Shaft for shaft should all be reflexive right? 

 

this should be pretty close?  How could the swing weight points be SO off by 6-8 swing weight points?  BTW these are the same grips, they were pulled off from the X100 and put on the 1150GH's so it cant be a grip issue?

 

 

I don't think you do understand what happens when you're dealing with the cut weights of shafts.  As noted previously, shaft balance points differ by design.  Cutting 2" off one shaft that is more biased to higher butt weight than another shaft biased opposite will not result in the same weight reduction after cutting.  Unless you already have a set of shafts cut and weighed, all you have is a guesstimate of the final weights and what the differences would be.  There's also shaft production tolerances that will change the results even among the exact same model shafts.

[Noodler]

BTW - There are numerous posts on this site from Howard, Stuart, and me regarding the fallacy of the use of swingweight.  If you truly want to understand why swingweight cannot be used in the manner you are attempting, then please search the site for the discussions regarding swingweight and MOI (also MBI).  Hopefully you'll learn a lot and understand how to better approach your "tinkering". 🙂

[Exactice808]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Why do you think you need to get  them to D2?     The fact that you only said "oh crap" after measuring them could be an important warning sign.   If there was no problem when playing the clubs and you didn't know there was a problem until after you measured them, then it's much more likely that the problem is not the the clubs but your perception of the measured value.   Of course I'm assuming you had played them before measuring them.

 

Either way, swing weight for any new set or club should always be adjusted by feel on the range - not by values on a swing weight scale.   For irons you can do it for a mid iron and then use the scale for the rest of the set.  But for woods/hybrids - it should only be done on the range.

 

 

 

 

For steel shafts, either tip weights or powder and cork will work equally well.  But yes 14 gm is a lot.   Tip weights max out around 10 gm.  You might want to double check the playing lengths to make sure they didn't come out shorter than you expected.

 

Probably missing playing length differences.     Sounds to me like you got a lightweight set of heads intended for an over-length build.   It's usually a good idea to get the raw head weights when reshafting.

 

Also shaft balance point changes make the shaft weight calculation pointless.   Most lighter shafts swing weight very close to the heavier DG's without needing any extra head weight.  The designers of the shaft know about swing weight and typically will adjust the balance point accordingly.

 

 

 

This is not universally true.   Different individuals have different sensitivities to both static weight and swing weight.   For some swing weight might be a bit more important for others static weight might.  Some can play a wide range for either while for others both might be very important.   Everyone should take the time to figure out their own sensitivities and ranges.

Hey Stuart! Thanks,

 

First and foremost I have played the Cobra MB's the longest (prior Gamer set).  I played the AP2's in the X100 forms the second longest.  I switched to the 1150GH's but didnt get along with them well.  Thats when the Cobra MB's showed up and things really tightened up or at least seemingly got better.

 

I played quite well with the AP2s in X100 (Granted this is WELL before I understood a lot of the technical details I understand now)  But I thought the X100 where too beefy for me.  So I had my local shop swap in the 1150GH's after an extensive shaft fitting.  Played with them YET again not realizing anything about swing weights.

 

AP2s 1150GH...just never worked (NO idea whyfor the longest time) I have made extensive threads about why I struggled to believe that GI's were not better for me than MB's... Had multiple debates how I explained I switched between the Cobra MB's and the AP2s and found no discernible advantage with the AP2 which is to be more forgiving.  Also I expressly stated many times how the AP2 were long and left for me and struggled with control with the AP2s.  

 

 

Now Again played well with the MB's and still trying to convince myself that forgiveness helps, I got the Sub70 split sets (MB/CB) PW-6iron.   Almost immediately I found the Sub70's heavy. (or FELT) Heavy.  you can follow my "Exactices Sub70 thread" My thoughts and explanations.   I was curious,  Measured the Cobra's and Sub70. The Subs were 14gram on average lighter than than the MB. So then I zeroed on the swing weight.  Bingo D0 vs D2/D3.  2 pts lighter. while it is likely not a significant. I could feel it.   Remember Spec for spec PW-6iron are all the same, lofts, lies, lengths, Shafts grips etc.  Only difference is the heads

 

Again what gives?  Well it seems  

 

1) The Sub70 again are averaging 14gram total weight lighter

2) the Sub70 have a swing weight heavier, to which seems to play better for me.

 

Finding all this I had lots of doubts. So I started measuring ALL my clubs. AP2 and the Taylormade MC TP.  4 & 5 iron

 

 

This is when I found the AP2 to be way off and the Taylormade MC's 4&5 iron to be way off as well.

 

 

cont

 

 

[Exactice808]

Part 2;

10/29/2020 was the first day I got the SW sorted out,  shot an 80,  Played with a client the next day,  but it was client golf, so there was no focus to play, more business talk and drinking.  Next 2 days I go out and shoot a 78 an 82.  This is with fixing the 4&5iron from C7 to D2 as well as playing with teh Sub 70's at D2.  

 

10/01/2020 was the first time out with the Sub70,  so I had a player curve of scores.  But again thats when I realized them to be heavy... just mentally noted.

 

 

 

The Above scores are the beginning of the year,  when I was messing around with both the AP2 in 1150GH alternating back and forth.

 

As you can see the scores are all over the creation.

 

 

 

Anyways the point is to show that I might have zeroed on to some consistency based on the Swing weights. More so I zeroed on to some issues specific to the disparity with the clubs ??

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Exactice808

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, Noodler said:

 

I don't think you do understand what happens when you're dealing with the cut weights of shafts.  As noted previously, shaft balance points differ by design.  Cutting 2" off one shaft that is more biased to higher butt weight than another shaft biased opposite will not result in the same weight reduction after cutting.  Unless you already have a set of shafts cut and weighed, all you have is a guesstimate of the final weights and what the differences would be.  There's also shaft production tolerances that will change the results even among the exact same model shafts.

 

Hey! Noodler, Thank you! you are right, hence the reason I am in here asking the questions.  I am understanding the basics. but hence the further down this rabbit whole.

 

I THINK I have figured out the answer!  But to first reply to you;

 

1) While I completely get it it here is my thought (misguided and misunderstood).  130 raw weight X100,  115 raw weigh 1150GH.  if we cut it PW length all things equal.  Would the balance point and weight disparity be that much to affect the swing weight by 7 swing points?  Reading again (https://www.golfalot.com/equipment-news/guide-to-swingweight-2907.aspx#:~:text=An accepted rule of thumb,to or from the shaft.) it takes 9 grams of overall weight to affect the swing weight by 1 point, to affect the weight 7 points that 63grams?  There is no likely way thats possible between the X100 and 1150GH?

 

 

 

 

OK above again though was my mistake and here is why

 

1) I mentioned this in my original post, there is plug weights in the X100 currently.  

2) I am assuming that the swing weights being so far off, the shop I had the work done just stuck the shafts in, without adding swing weight plugs/doing any swing weight measurements.

3) Assuming that 14gram is what it takes (7 sw pts, 2 gram to head per SW pt),  the X100 likely have 10+gram weight plugs.  Its epoxyed in, I tried to pull them last night, Im going to get the heat gun out and try to get them out to measure/weigh them.

4) If the X100 have swing weight plugs (varying weights) it would make up the supposed misunderstanding I had above about the 15gram disparity.  Meaning,  Take the PW, X100 say it was cut and the shaft weight was 100grams.   Take the 1150gh and it was cut and the raw weight was 85grams.  (15gram difference)  BUT because of the swing weight they had to had a 10gram plug. the ACTUAL weight of the X100 is 110gram yet the 1150GH is still only 85gram having a total disparity of 25grams! (especially now the 10gram SW plug not in the 1150GH) shifting the SW majorly by 7 sw points.

 

So fact remains, the AP2 1150GH has NO SW weight plugs period (assuming)  So adding them in will bring the swing weight back to D2 and the misunderstanding of 15gram difference in overall shaft weight is due to the fact that I was comparing Apples and Oranges. X100 with swing weight plugs and nothing in the 1150?

 

 

Final point, if I want to FIX the AP2  I need to add weight to the head period.   

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

It may be that when you played the lighter SW irons, you didn't know any better and were use to them, not seeing an issue.  Along comes Golfwrx, some education about this and that, time passes, better skills new equipment feels great and BAM, those other clubs don't feel right.   Low and behold swing weight is beyond what could be imagined.

 

For the longest time my PW, SW and LW were exactly OEM.  Later, (many years back) I learned about what works better for me so I changed them to what they are today.  Have a good weekend of golf.

 

 

[Exactice808]

5 hours ago, Noodler said:

BTW - There are numerous posts on this site from Howard, Stuart, and me regarding the fallacy of the use of swingweight.  If you truly want to understand why swingweight cannot be used in the manner you are attempting, then please search the site for the discussions regarding swingweight and MOI (also MBI).  Hopefully you'll learn a lot and understand how to better approach your "tinkering". 🙂

Actually this is a GREAT point!  I did a site search... but many of the post were older.  Secondly my thread had multiple facets of questions and discussion so I didnt want t mess up someone else's thread.

 

 

OK so here is the wild thoughts.

 

1) for a while I was trying to justify forgiveness... I wanted forgiveness.  I had the AP2's ,  had the MB and just could not shoot any better with the AP2's

2) I have for a while mentioned my struggles with my AP2s.  Inconsistent distances and many times hooks or big misses left.

 

Does the way of Swing weight validate this?

 

C6 vs D2?   The lighter feeling head,  has me accelerating (fast club head speed? further distances)  and of course th faster accelerating head, releasing faster and ball going left and sometimes way left?

 

So NOW.... what if I got the AP2's to D2/D3 swing weights and started playing with them? The True Benefits of the GI's might finally shine and be applicable to me? NO? 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Exactice808

[Exactice808]

15 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

It may be that when you played the lighter SW irons, you didn't know any better and were use to them, not seeing an issue.  Along comes Golfwrx, some education about this and that, time passes, better skills new equipment feels great and BAM, those other clubs don't feel right.   Low and behold swing weight is beyond what could be imagined.

 

For the longest time my PW, SW and LW were exactly OEM.  Later, (many years back) I learned about what works better for me so I changed them to what they are today.  Have a good weekend of golf.

 

 

Exactly!!! Thanks @Pepperturbo  I think you got the jist of my "discussion"  my gamers are my gamers period.  I love the Sub70s, the last 4 rounds I have settled really well and shooting low 80's high 70's which I have NOT done as evident in a while.  I have moments of brilliances but no consistent. this is the FIRST time I felt consistent.

 

The MBs I shot pretty decent and moments of brilliance.  While D0 2 swing points off... I got used to it.

 

The AP2s being C5-C7... way off. Same with the Taylormade MC's being C5 & C8... its messed up,  Just fixing the MC's 4 & 5 iron on the course the last 4 rounds its been way better!

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

Science does NOT always address how we feel playing our clubs.  Probably why outside of how a club feels when struck well, I pay little attention to club science.  Changing swing weight can result in better ball striking and improved tempo.  Changing flex can contribute to that result as well.

 

A few weeks back I switched out Steelfiber i95cw "S" shaft in my 2iron for Steelfiber i110 "S" shaft.  They are slightly different profiles plus SW increased.  SW combined with the heavier 110 weight it eliminated the little fade tail I had with the lighter 95g shaft.   Now, I hit the ball straight and improved ball striking so further.  

 

Lighter shafts and heads intended to increase average Joe's SS are behind lighter SW; he doesn't know any better. Thank CAD for that, except lighter does not tend to fit golfers as they find improvement.  

 

One ole man's 2cents.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[Pepperturbo]

Tinkering with equipment is fine, as long as tinkering doesn't cross over and affect playing your best golf.

 

I have a number of iron sets but don't take any of them to the course, only the range.  Reason is under game pressure I don't know what will result, and don't like unknown when trying to score.  Playing various iron sets can also cause some people to doubt themselves at the most inopportune game time.  Playing good golf is always my #1 priority.

 

 

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Tinkering with equipment is fine, as long as tinkering doesn't cross over and affect playing your best golf.

 

I have a number of iron sets but don't take any of them to the course, only the range.  Reason is under game pressure I don't know what will result, and don't like unknown when trying to score.  Playing various iron sets can also cause some people to doubt themselves at the most inopportune game time.  Playing good golf is always my #1 priority.

 

 

 

To be fair,  these are left over set.

 

half the reason why I considered messing with the clubs is; I built an indoor simulator, so I can practice.  I thought I could use my Cobra MB blades and save the faces on the Sub70s , also alternate with the AP2, But realized that the swing weights are so far off that practicing with the Cobras or AP2s would not be beneficial.  So I stopped and only use the Sub70's period.

 

 

I am still hoping that if I can tinker with the AP2 and Cobra's to get them to the same swing weights.  I can better groove a swing during practice at home.  while saving the Sub70's

 

I also realize NOW since I had the sub 70 a month and a half... I was practicing with the Cobra's then taking the Sub70 thinking I was doing myself a favor, but realize that I was messing myself up.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Exactice808

[Pepperturbo]

@Exactice808 Swing weights are pretty easy to match up for a skilled club builder.  I leave club building to my guy who has all the equipment and experience.  I tell him what I want, he knows how to make it happen.  I am a true believer in letting people that know more than me about a certain subject, do what they do best. 

 

I don't understand, WHY you want to practice with those other sets of irons as opposed to Sub70 irons that you actually play golf with?  I see no practical benefit in practising with my other sets of irons, even though they are configured spec wise, similar to my 620 irons.  Everybody is different.

[Fairway14]

A few weeks ago Sergio Garcia won a tour event with a bag full of C7 swing weight clubs.

[Exactice808]

Just now, Pepperturbo said:

@Exactice808 Swing weights are pretty easy to match up for a skilled club builder.  I leave club building to my guy who has all the equipment and experience.  I tell him what I want, he knows how to make it happen.  I am a true believer in letting people that know more than me about a certain subject, do what they do best. 

 

I don't understand, WHY you want to practice with those other sets of irons as opposed to Sub70 irons that you actually play golf with?  I see no practical benefit in practising with my other sets of irons, even though they are configured spec wise, similar to my 620 irons.  Everybody is different.

So the reason I am caution about my "skilled club builder" it seems they didnt even measure or attempt to match swing weight when they pulled the X100s.... I dont want to go back after that? Seem like a default thing to do?

 

As for practicing  As I mentioned well if I could save the face on the Sub70. if the clubs are nearly identical I can drill at home and use the sub70 on the course.  To be fair I wont exclusively use the other clubs but again more to "alternate" and extend the life of the Sub70.

 

It might be feesible or not... but that was the "theory" LOL

 

[Exactice808]

Just now, Fairway14 said:

A few weeks ago Sergio Garcia won a tour event with a bag full of C7 swing weight clubs.

?? Really??? going to read up about that?  But alas...hes a tour pro....im a scub LOL I need all the help I can get...

[Exactice808]

Well Im stumped again.....

 

First and foremost,  I did it!! I took fishing split shots... jammed it down the shafts,  packed it in like musket. LOL.  Only one, is rattling a little but that's the 4 iron so no biggie.   At least I can say I was successful.   I rechecked the swing weights (Original C7-C9) ,  So I had to go 12grams to 8 grams on lead split shot.

 

Got them All to D2/D3.

 

 

Now here is the wild part, Remember I said that they had tip weights.... Well heck they were NOTHING... .84grams, .875grams.... nothing... Im back to my confusion, thinking that there was substantial tip weights.  BUT also now... @Noodler and others that mention the balance point.  It very much edifies and seems that each shaft (kick/stiffness and balance point affects the SW)

 

The X100 compared the 1150GH are by far a huge difference?

 

 

 

So for the "tinker/test" purpose.... Fishing split shot jammed down the shaft works quiet well to get the SW back up.

 

But now the weird part again.

 

Way back when, when I did the X100 Measurements

PW - 466grams

9iron - 464g

8iron - 452g

 

Etc

 

Current with Split shot

 

PW- 466gr

9iron - 461gr

8iron - 449gr

The over all weight is difference is 3 grams.... the shift to the "Lighter" shaft is now negligible......uh...... im so confused.......

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

21 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

So the reason I am caution about my "skilled club builder" it seems they didnt even measure or attempt to match swing weight when they pulled the X100s.... I dont want to go back after that? Seem like a default thing to do?

 

As for practicing  As I mentioned well if I could save the face on the Sub70. if the clubs are nearly identical I can drill at home and use the sub70 on the course.  To be fair I wont exclusively use the other clubs but again more to "alternate" and extend the life of the Sub70.

 

It might be feesible or not... but that was the "theory" LOL

 

 

Just a few thoughts...

 

I been using the same club builder for six years.  I ALWAYS detail out what I want him to do right down to tip cleaning, and never rely on him to KNOW.  He has too many clients with varied expectations.  Plus he's not like tour player club builders that keep build notes for each player, and they earn more too.

 

If practice club heads are more forgiving and different specs compared to Sub70 clubs, you're not fine-tuning ball-striking.  Practice easier than it's going to be playing Sub70 irons, so it's almost defeating the purpose.

[Noodler]

@Exactice808 - nice to hear you got some good results with your further tinkering.  What is important to takeaway from your experimentation is that golfers will generally respond to club weight changes.  Whether that response is good or bad depends on the golfer's skill/strength/flexibility and how the weight is distributed across the club components.  You should understand that "good" results aren't necessarily your potential "optimal" results.  To achieve optimal you must adopt a protocol for determining the best overall weight and distribution of that weight to achieve the on-center strike accuracy while attaining your highest club speeds.  Almost no fitters are using any kind of method to make this determination in their fittings. 

 

Your posts have been a prime example of the "struggle" some golfers go through in an attempt to quantify their experience with different clubs.  Unfortunately swingweight cannot do this for us.  Because swingweight is only a measure of balance about a fixed 14" fulcrum, it it easily fooled by the way modern components are used.  Heavier than standard grips, heads, and shifting shaft balance points all make the swingweight scale ill-equipped for the job.

 

If you ever really want to quantify the differences between your clubs and develop a better understanding for why some clubs are working better for you than others, you will have to delve into MOI and MBI.  I just finished some club work for a fellow forum member and it once again solidified my understanding that MOI is insufficient alone for providing a measurement of club feel.  MOI does not take into account the distribution of the weight across the components, whereas MBI does.  When a golf club attains a high MOI by having a large amount of weight in the shaft (in this case 130g shafts), it will NOT feel the same as a club of the same weight and MOI as one that has the weight more in the head than the shaft.  As club makers, we must be cognizant of the relative distribution of weight across the club and how that will impact a golfer's swing.

 

There is hard science (physics) that governs the golf swing and how golfers react within the "swing system" (golfer+club).  Even if the industry does not yet fully understand all the aspects and how they pertain to to the results, there are those of us that seek to find the "connection" and understand the "whys" and "hows".  Good luck with your future tinkering...

Edited November 9, 2020 by Noodler

[Exactice808]

On 11/7/2020 at 11:16 AM, Pepperturbo said:

 

Just a few thoughts...

 

I been using the same club builder for six years.  I ALWAYS detail out what I want him to do right down to tip cleaning, and never rely on him to KNOW.  He has too many clients with varied expectations.  Plus he's not like tour player club builders that keep build notes for each player, and they earn more too.

 

If practice club heads are more forgiving and different specs compared to Sub70 clubs, you're not fine-tuning ball-striking.  Practice easier than it's going to be playing Sub70 irons, so it's almost defeating the purpose.

To be fair,  we have had plenty of these conversations in the Equipment section LOL.   I wont be substituting these for practice exclusively.  Again its more of the Tinkering side.

 

The AP2s are by far the oldest clubs I have,  so its been sitting for a while.  But mostly as I was never able to perform well with them especially after the shaft change.   The Cobra MB's are my prior gamers and if anything those would be the clubs I would be alternating if I am having a bad time with the Sub70.  BUT I doubt it as the Sub70 are performing VERY well.  It seems the set up is just right.

 

The Idea again with the AP2's is the see if I can find "Forgiveness" as an equitable edifier to the game.  Which up to this point I have not personally found it.  So its more just "tinker/playing around with them". Especially now that I have a home simulator setup with an ES14. I can see numbers.  

 

 

As for using the same club builder. I have to a certain extent used them exclusively as well.  Outside of that, as I mentioned with my limited knowledge way back then, not realizing how off the clubs were I played those irons for sometime, completely ignorant.  Scores where NOT good during that period that is why I went searching again. Thus finding the Cobra MB's To which I had better success.

 

Anyways the alternating would be drilling (positions and less then full shot)  But again the tinkering,  See the affects if launch spin and actually face contact based on the differences of club.

 

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, Noodler said:

@Exactice808 - nice to hear you got some good results with your further tinkering.  What is important to takeaway from your experimentation is that golfers will generally respond to club weight changes.  Whether that response is good or bad depends on the golfer's skill/strength/flexibility and how the weight is distributed across the club components.  You should understand that "good" results aren't necessarily your potential "optimal" results.  To achieve optimal you must adopt a protocol for determining the best overall weight and distribution of that weight to achieve the on-center strike accuracy while attaining your highest club speeds.  Almost no fitters are using any kind of method to make this determination in their fittings. 

 

Your posts have been a prime example of the "struggle" some golfers go through in an attempt to quantify their experience with different clubs.  Unfortunately swingweight cannot do this for us.  Because swingweight is only a measure of balance about a fixed 14" fulcrum, it it easily fooled by the way modern components are used.  Heavier than standard grips, heads, and shifting shaft balance points all make the swingweight scale ill-equipped for the job.

 

If you ever really want to quantify the differences between your clubs and develop a better understanding for why some clubs are working better for you than others, you will have to delve into MOI and MBI.  I just finished some club work for a fellow forum member and it once again solidified my understanding that MOI is insufficient alone for providing a measurement of club feel.  MOI does not take into account the distribution of the weight across the components, whereas MBI does.  When a golf club attains a high MOI by having a large amount of weight in the shaft (in this case 130g shafts), it will NOT feel the same as a club of the same weight and MOI as one that has the weight more in the head than the shaft.  As club makers, we must be cognizant of the relative distribution of weight across the club and how that will impact a golfer's swing.

 

There is hard science (physics) that governs the golf swing and how golfers react within the "swing system" (golfer+club).  Even if the industry does not yet fully understand all the aspects and how they pertain to to the results, there are those of us that seek to find the "connection" and understand the "whys" and "hows".  Good luck with your future tinkering...

The AP2s have sat for a long time,  Yet in the back of my mind, forgiveness has always been something I thought I wanted or needed. Now knowing I have the AP2s yet not being able to take advantage of them made me shy away from looking at other GI clubs.

 

BUT here is the kicker.  I am blaming the clubs but not understanding or realizing the the specs just dont mix well with me?

 

As you mention learning how the affects apply to me as a player personally.  Now I have had the Sub70 for 2 months at most and played about 8 rounds.  50% of the rounds have been good... so it might just be a honeymoon phase but we shall see.

 

The point though as you mentioned "feel" though is something of concern right? It feels like the D2/D3 swing weight might be the better fit for me at this point?

 

 

OK Sorry real quick I have to deviate before I forget my thought.  Being in this conversation makes me understand MORE and MORE things SO I truly appreciate your constant comments its allowing me to think further and make sense of things. @Stuart_G  You got my brain going @Noodler as well LOL.

 

AP2's

1) AP2's Original form Factor Titleist, X100 D2/D3.  Right setup worked- Original Setup

2) Changed to 1150GH and clubs went off the rails. Swing weights changed could not play well.

 

As you both mentioned the head weights are also matched at the factory, based on the shaft?  So maybe the X100 being heavier have X head weights to best match the shaft, that's why the weight plugs were so little.  Once we changed the shaft. The head weights where no where near optimal shaft setup and that is why the only way to bring the Swing Weight back up was to dump all that lead weight back in. Effectively negating the "lighter" shaft. I mean I seriously had to dump 16grams in the 4 iron to get it to D2 from C7.  There went any advantage of a light weight 115gram setup vs the 130gram shaft.

 

 

Cobra MB's (lightbulb moment)

1) Bought them from Roger Dunns $129 (used) but practically new PW-6iron (Assuming factory build)

2) You got my noodle going, the clubs were longer, I think by quite a bit, 1/2" to 1" something like that. I BET, they were swing weighted correctly at the time.

3) I had my club builder put them back to original length..... but again since I had no idea of SW....I didnt specify and they likely pulled the extension but thats it.  NOW that makes sense why the clubs are measuring at D0 right now.  2 swing weights less. Thanks @Stuart_G for giving me the lightbulb!

 

 

Now Sub70's are factory ordered and first time really buying something new and factory, as they seem to be working.  It seems myself as a player is potentially sensitive to swing weight?  Future purchase should "specify" and be cognitive of swing weight?