Did 2020 finally show the golf world that Augusta is just a rather average course?

[bjh1]

"Difficult" and "great" are not synonymous. 

 

One of the things that make the tournament great is the possibility to go low on the back nine. 

[bscinstnct]

57 minutes ago, bjh1 said:

"Difficult" and "great" are not synonymous. 

 

One of the things that make the tournament great is the possibility to go low on the back nine. 

 

Imagine walking down 11 and the insane rush seeing this on Sunday with a 1 shot lead?

 

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Imagine walking down 11 and the insane rush seeing this on Sunday with a 1 shot lead?

 

 

 

 

GULP!
 

And....Fran the man! My next door neighbor was Tark’s agent his first few years in the league. Skol Vikings!

[bscinstnct]

28 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

GULP!
 

And....Fran the man! My next door neighbor was Tark’s agent his first few years in the league. Skol Vikings!

 

Really? That’s cool, Tark was prolly making like 200k back then or something, crazy.

 

I used to marvel as a kid watching him. Would get to see him in the playoffs, I think they would end up playing the Rams a few times. You’d watch him scramble back and forth, from sideline to sideline, like 3 times! The play would take 2 minutes he’d have half the defense chasing him and you’d end up standing and jumping up and down yourself ,  it was so crazy. 
 

This was one of him more “ho-hum” efforts

 

 

 

[Shakespeare]

25 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Really? That’s cool, Tark was prolly making like 200k back then or something, crazy.

 

I used to marvel as a kid watching him. Would get to see him in the playoffs, I think they would end up playing the Rams a few times. You’d watch him scramble back and forth, from sideline to sideline, like 3 times! The play would take 2 minutes he’d have half the defense chasing him and you’d end up standing and jumping up and down yourself ,  it was so crazy. 
 

This was one of him more “ho-hum” efforts

 

 

 

The next thread.."Was Fran an average quaterback?"

[Rangeballz]

Add bunkers to toughen the course up? Please. No need to add anything. I did miss the azaleas, but the fall colors were nice.

 

I'm in my 60s, and I can't ever remember anyone in the fairway bunker at 10. It's out of play for both the tee shot and second shot, yet it frames the hole perfectly and is one of the most iconic, easily recognizable bunkers in the world. Same with the greenside bunkers on 13. They are rarely in play, but they help give the hole its mystique. And 14? Not a bunker in sight and it is challenging, especially on Sunday afternoon.

 

And as was said, most folks know this course better than their home track, and 99% have never, and will never see the place in person. 

[Port and Starboard]

No Sunday roars.

 

Greens holding like velcro, and slower stimp.

 

Best player on the planet with his A game.

 

-20 could have been had most any where's.

[smashdn]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:52 AM, manku said:

 

DJ didn't even know where he stood on the 18th hole (he figured he was winning...that's it)...how is having Rory, JT and Rahm breathing down his neck going to matter if he isn't scoreboard watching?  Especially with no crowds and roars.

 

The world's clear #1 golfer runs away with a major and people are trying to diminish his achievement.

 

Some people are never pleased!

 

You should read back through all the posts that resulted in mine before you paint with that broad brush.  I am pleased as punch he won.  Like has been stated, he played the same course as everyone else and played it better.  But I am not blind to the fact that Augusta in November and The Masters v.2020 is/was different.  I am not advocating an asterisk or anything like that nor saying that had the conditions and crowds been there that DJ wouldn't have won.  But I won't allow those differences to not be discussed as possibly impacting play or potential outcome as some have.

[J13]

I will guarantee the Masters in April won't have a -20 winning score.  

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

You should read back through all the posts that resulted in mine before you paint with that broad brush.  I am pleased as punch he won.  Like has been stated, he played the same course as everyone else and played it better.  But I am not blind to the fact that Augusta in November and The Masters v.2020 is/was different.  I am not advocating an asterisk or anything like that nor saying that had the conditions and crowds been there that DJ wouldn't have won.  But I won't allow those differences to not be discussed as possibly impacting play or potential outcome as some have.

So...do we need to go there in every single tournament discussion?  The US Open at Winged Foot...the fairways were arguably too narrow...who would have won if they were a bit wider? Would Bryson still have won? The PGA was held at a muni without fans ....would young Morikawa have been able to handle the pressure at a more esteemed course and in front of throngs of fans.....

The conditions were that they were. You can always say what if, but why? 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, J13 said:

I will guarantee the Masters in April won't have a -20 winning score.  

You could bet the winning score wouldn’t be -20 and the odds would definitely be with you. But guarantee? No. 
That would be like some guy guaranteeing Rory, Day and DJwould never win another major. 😏

[tbowles411]

15 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

You could bet the winning score wouldn’t be -20 and the odds would definitely be with you. But guarantee? No. 
That would be like some guy guaranteeing Rory, Day and DJwould never win another major. 😏

Well.... LOL

[smashdn]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

So...do we need to go there in every single tournament discussion?  The US Open at Winged Foot...the fairways were arguably too narrow...who would have won if they were a bit wider? Would Bryson still have won? The PGA was held at a muni without fans ....would young Morikawa have been able to handle the pressure at a more esteemed course and in front of throngs of fans.....

The conditions were that they were. You can always say what if, but why? 

 

Why?  Gives us something to chat about instead of doing work.

 

I think you might could make that argument about US Open 2020 as well if you wanted.

 

How about this?  What if the conditions at Chambers Bay were different?

 

I don't think it is fair to say the conditions didn't play a role.  That is all I was saying.  To think that they may not have had some impact, positive or negative is disingenuous is all.  Some where attempting to say that conditions (course and fans absence) didn't/couldn't play a role.  I say how could they not?  Maybe they didn't change who would have won, but maybe they did.  We can't know for certain.

[gvogel]

I think that it is inarguable that the distance that modern elite players hit the ball off the tee make a course like Augusta easier to score upon.

 

I, for one, am in favor of a Masters ball and Masters COR which would help restore some of the risk/reward in going for 13 and 15 in two shots.  Then there would be no discussion.

 

I firmly believe that the best players in the world could play with hickory and balata and still be around even par at ANGC.  But wouldn't it be fun to see how they would deal with the occasional miss caused by the torque in the shafts!

Edited November 19, 2020 by gvogel

[Bubbtubbs]

26 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Why?  Gives us something to chat about instead of doing work.

 

I think you might could make that argument about US Open 2020 as well if you wanted.

 

How about this?  What if the conditions at Chambers Bay were different?

 

I don't think it is fair to say the conditions didn't play a role.  That is all I was saying.  To think that they may not have had some impact, positive or negative is disingenuous is all.  Some where attempting to say that conditions (course and fans absence) didn't/couldn't play a role.  I say how could they not?  Maybe they didn't change who would have won, but maybe they did.  We can't know for certain.

I can appreciate that this sort of exercise might be entertaining but I don't see why you would want to engage in theorycrafting when there is no chance of verification being provided. You might as well throw out every wild prediction you can think of because all of it is intangible without subsequent event results.

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, Bubbtubbs said:

I can appreciate that this sort of exercise might be entertaining but I don't see why you would want to engage in theorycrafting when there is no chance of verification being provided. You might as well throw out every wild prediction you can think of because all of it is intangible without subsequent event results.

 

It was more to defend the point than anything.  I think someone with the argument "the conditions didn't impact the results" is rather myopic.  I attempted to point out how, but not to a great degree as of yet.

[Shilgy]

21 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

It was more to defend the point than anything.  I think someone with the argument "the conditions didn't impact the results" is rather myopic.  I attempted to point out how, but not to a great degree as of yet.

Of course the conditions affected the tournament. That is true of every event , every round, of golf ever played. 
That does not mean the result would have been any different.  DJ playing great is going to be the likely winner in any event. His best is just better.

That said...some are fans of the “what if” scenarios.  So carry on and I will bow out.

[golfandfishing]

20 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

You should read back through all the posts that resulted in mine before you paint with that broad brush.  I am pleased as punch he won.  Like has been stated, he played the same course as everyone else and played it better.  But I am not blind to the fact that Augusta in November and The Masters v.2020 is/was different.  I am not advocating an asterisk or anything like that nor saying that had the conditions and crowds been there that DJ wouldn't have won.  But I won't allow those differences to not be discussed as possibly impacting play or potential outcome as some have.

Of course it is different this year. Can you put your finger on anything occurring this year that has caused so many things to operate differently this year than in previous years?  I’m freaking stumped myself........

[milesgiles]

To stay on topic

 

the course was clearly nowhere near it’s best, with or without the azaleas.  Parkland is really my least favourite type of course to watch or play. There are weak/unfair holes, the 9’s aren’t balanced, too many blind approaches etc etc..

 

HOWEVER, if you are fortunate enough to go, you see it with completely different eyes. You can walk in at the bottom of the property and the first thing you see is 15/16, catch it early morning with the mist and dew, and then you really, really ‘get it’. 

 

‘Augusta’ goes way beyond the golf course itself. It’s the place, the history, the members, the fans, the whole experience. There’s St Andrews, there’s Augusta, then there’s everything else.

[FakeClubPro]

On 11/18/2020 at 2:34 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

Imagine walking down 11 and the insane rush seeing this on Sunday with a 1 shot lead?

 

 

 

 

 

I saw pics in Golf Magazine (single free copy they sent me to boost their readership counts) of Augusta in the Spring where the tourney is played with all the flowers and when it was played last week.

 

So pretty in the spring.  I almost wish they would play it in the spring with no crowds to see all the flowers.

[FakeClubPro]

20 hours ago, Shilgy said:

You could bet the winning score wouldn’t be -20 and the odds would definitely be with you. But guarantee? No. 
That would be like some guy guaranteeing Rory, Day and DJwould never win another major. 😏

 

Bryson might find a new tweak or do a few more reps where he could destroy Augusta like he destroyed Winged Foot.

[Bad9]

Does anyone really think that anyone who has won a major spends even a nano second on the thought "I won  in November, it was a soft course, etc but it would have been so much better if I had won in April on a firm course, etc" I would bet that thought only comes up in golf forums/bar discussions by guys trying to somehow devalue the win. I doubt even the guys who didn't win spend any time with thoughts like "He only won because the course played soft" etc.

[gvogel]

Dustin Johnson, No 1 in the world before the Masters

Cameron Smith, No 45

Songae Im, No 25

Justin Thomas, No 3

Rory McIlroy, No 4

Dylan Fritelli, No 100

C T Pan, 176

Brooks Koepka, No 12

Jon Rahm, No 2

Webb Simpson, No 7

Corey Connors, No 68

patrick Reed, No 11

 

So Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7 all finished in the top 10 at ANGC.  A couple of surprises in there, but by and large the course held up to the best players in the world.

 

Average course?  I don't think so.

[swagee]

On 11/15/2020 at 12:44 PM, FakeClubPro said:

DJ destroyed the place and Cam Smith was close.   I used to think it was one of the great courses in the world.  Now - it seems like there are far more challenging courses like Oakmont, Shinnecock Hills, Bethpage Black, Carnoutsie, Winged Foot, St. Andrews, or Whistling Straits.  Oakmont is so much tougher as is Bryson's amazing win at Winged Foot.

 

 

The commentator reminds me of that Sling Blade guy.

 

Hero

 

While I agree with u that there are far more challenging courses out there, I don't think using difficulty as THE metric of greatness is fair.  

Augusta is great not solely because of its difficulty, but its tradition and history as well. It has never been considered as the most challenging major, but rather the most wanted due to the list of prestigious names that immortalize the green jacket. 

[RainShadow]

Was the OP asking this question of a soggy Congressional when Rory demolished it? 

Or Kiawah Island?

 News flash: Great courses aren't necessarily defined by difficulty, per se.

And golf is played outdoors in elements that cant be controlled. Weather changes the playing conditions.

Did the course hold up under those conditions? Yes, it did. 

Had the game passed Augusta National by? that's a different question altogether. Remember, Tiger made it look easy and short in '97.

Edited November 26, 2020 by RainShadow

[smashdn]

Tiger was the only one though.

[Krt22]

I golfwrx 4hdcp would have shot even that week, no doubt in my mind

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I golfwrx 4hdcp would have shot even that week, no doubt in my mind

 

Hey --- Masters, not U.S. Women's Open!

[Krt22]

9 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Hey --- Masters, not U.S. Women's Open!

Without crowds and the greens all tricked up, it was basically a resort course. Wide fairways, greens stuck like glue, I'm surprised they didn't just let them ride in carts! 

[Hawkeye77]

54 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Without crowds and the greens all tricked up, it was basically a resort course. Wide fairways, greens stuck like glue, I'm surprised they didn't just let them ride in carts! 

And I short-changed you, as a 4 cap wrxer you'd win the USWO!