"Mud Ball"

[munichop]

This thread is titled "mud ball" and the ways ANGC likes to have certain terms used to describe their course and tournament.  I was trying to illustrate that language is used as a form of snobbery to remind everyday folks that clubs like ANGC are different.  Think of it as anti-slang.  Like it or not this is part of the "tradition" of golf.  ANGC just gets to remind us of it every year. They could choose not to but they don't so they must think it is an important "reminder".

Edited November 16, 2020 by munichop

[golfortennis]

20 minutes ago, munichop said:

This thread is titled "mud ball" and the ways ANGC likes to have certain terms used to describe their course and tournament.  I was trying to illustrate that language is used as a form of snobbery to remind everyday folks that clubs like ANGC are different.  Think of it as anti-slang.  Like it or not this is part of the "tradition" of golf.  ANGC just gets to remind us of it every year. They could choose not to but they don't so they must think it is an important "reminder".

 

They are also very clear that you are welcome not to watch, read or otherwise pay attention to it.  Their tournament, their rules. 

[munichop]

Golf has roots in exclusion by organizations like ANGC.  Language is just a part of it.  The sport is diminished by continuing it.  The club held on to other "traditions" for a long time as well. When you host one of the 4 majors in your sport you should be held to account for that perspective.  If the club didn't face scrutiny do you think it would have changed?

[golfortennis]

32 minutes ago, munichop said:

Golf has roots in exclusion by organizations like ANGC.  Language is just a part of it.  The sport is diminished by continuing it.  The club held on to other "traditions" for a long time as well. When you host one of the 4 majors in your sport you should be held to account for that perspective.  If the club didn't face scrutiny do you think it would have changed?

 

Even though you and I disagree, I will always defend your right, and theirs, to decide for yourself how best to conduct your affairs.  The way to hold them to account, if we are to say it was needed, is to ignore them. 

[munichop]

I disagree to the extent that they host a major.  If they didn't profit from their attitude like many truly private organizations I would agree more.  But ANGC is one of the drivers of the sport.  I do agree I can ignore them.  I have to the point I have none of their merchandise, won't attend in person, wouldn't accept an invite to play the course etc. But I enjoy the majors, they just happen to host one.

[smashdn]

 They didn't go out with intentions of hosting a "major."  They host an annual invitational tournament.  The players are guests.  The patrons are guests.  CBS is a guest in a sense and a partner as well.  Along with their members who, through their ties and connections, present the tournament in a certain fashion on television.  ANGC wants the club presented a certain way.  I am sure they don't get everything just how they want it and I am sure there are things that they will not budge on.

 

Rough for instance.  Originally the club had no rough.  The rules of golf describe nor prescribe for no such an animal either.

 

It is certainly semantics.  But words carry connotations.  

 

I can't get on board with whatever they are doing is holding the sport back.

[jonsnow]

I guess people will see the boogeyman where they choose to see him (or her, don't want to be accused of being exclusionary)...

[Potatohead]

Funny thing is on Friday someone mentioned the thirteenth tee didn't look so good and all I could think about was how that guy was going to get the axe from the broadcast 😆

[Phireside]

Not using the term mud ball is only going to irk those of us who hang out here on these forums. For the rest of the world, it would go by unnoticed....

 

until Dottie busted out organic matter, and then the rest of the world would go WTF is this old woman talking about? And then they would carry on crushing silver bullets.

[jonsnow]

13 hours ago, Phireside said:

Not using the term mud ball is only going to irk those of us who hang out here on these forums. For the rest of the world, it would go by unnoticed....

 

until Dottie busted out organic matter, and then the rest of the world would go WTF is this old woman talking about? And then they would carry on crushing silver bullets.

Oh dear, you did not just call Dottie old! When someone who goes by Dottie gets old, they have to start going by Dorothy. That's when you will know she's old.

[Fairway14]

Good for Masters Tournament to observe the Rules of Golf, including relief from casual water and, or, embedded balls.

Mud on the ball is an integral part of the game and it is disgraceful that that most PGA Tour events disregard the Rules of Golf, choosing instead to play lift-clean-place.

[Fairway14]

19 hours ago, munichop said:

Golf has roots in exclusion by organizations like ANGC.  Language is just a part of it.  The sport is diminished by continuing it.  The club held on to other "traditions" for a long time as well. When you host one of the 4 majors in your sport you should be held to account for that perspective.  If the club didn't face scrutiny do you think it would have changed?

 

How or why is golf "diminished" by private clubs having their own policies ?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Good for Masters Tournament to observe the Rules of Golf, including relief from casual water and, or, embedded balls.

Mud on the ball is an integral part of the game and it is disgraceful that that most PGA Tour events disregard the Rules of Golf, choosing instead to play lift-clean-place.

 

What? What exactly is integral about it? 

[Fairway14]

11 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

What? What exactly is integral about it? 

 When there is mud on the ball playing the shot accordingly is an integral part of the game.

[Potatohead]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

Good for Masters Tournament to observe the Rules of Golf, including relief from casual water and, or, embedded balls.

Mud on the ball is an integral part of the game and it is disgraceful that that most PGA Tour events disregard the Rules of Golf, choosing instead to play lift-clean-place.

 

L/C/P is almost never used in all majors. In fact I recall it was used recently once, I believe at the PGA and it was one of the only times in history. 

 

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 minute ago, Fairway14 said:

 When there is mud on the ball playing the shot accordingly is an integral part of the game.

 

You just re-stated your original post. What is integral about it or why is it integral?

[Old Tom Morris]

11 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

You just re-stated your original post. What is integral about it or why is it integral?

Playing the ball as it lies is the very basic premise of the game. 

 

Perhaps read a rule book and make an effort to understand the history of the game?

[TLUBulldogGolf]

1 minute ago, Old Tom Morris said:

Playing the ball as it lies is the very basic premise of the game. 

 

Perhaps read a rule book and make an effort to understand the history of the game?

 

From the 11 cap who probably has no concept of the margins these players deal with week to week (look I can talk down as well).

 

Generally speaking I agree that playing it down is preferable, but to me mud goes a bit beyond that and even saying that most of the time they try to avoid it. I certainly don't see mud balls specifically as 'an integral part if the game'. How does driving it in the fairway (where it is more likely to occur) just to have mud on your ball and a resulting random shot, even if you play for it, reliably determine the best player? 

[smashdn]

Define "fairway."

[Bubbtubbs]

3 hours ago, jonsnow said:

Oh dear, you did not just call Dottie old! When someone who goes by Dottie gets old, they have to start going by Dorothy. That's when you will know she's old.

Anybody named Dottie, or Esther, or anything else in that vein is very likely incredibly old.

[Fairway14]

39 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

You just re-stated your original post. What is integral about it or why is it integral?

 

To answer your question I wrote "playing the shot accordingly ".

While navigating a golf course a player may face  a windy or warm or cold temperature  environment. His ball may lay on hard pan or sandy or grassy , within a divot, or several other less than ideal lie types. Managing all these different conditions is an integral part of the game, as is playing a shot where on the ball is mud. To become a consistently low scoring player a person needs to have the skills to play shots accordingly, regardless of the conditions.

[jdl]

On 11/16/2020 at 12:00 PM, munichop said:

This thread is titled "mud ball" and the ways ANGC likes to have certain terms used to describe their course and tournament.  I was trying to illustrate that language is used as a form of snobbery to remind everyday folks that clubs like ANGC are different.  Think of it as anti-slang.  Like it or not this is part of the "tradition" of golf.  ANGC just gets to remind us of it every year. They could choose not to but they don't so they must think it is an important "reminder".

One vote for mashed potatoes.

[Skhacker]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:01 AM, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

What? What exactly is integral about it? 

Lift, clean and place or preferred lies is mostly an American concept. We like to make things easier on ourselves. Playing golf in Europe, especially Scotland or Ireland, you’d be laughed at for bringing it up as it is just not done. Even the Euro tour begrudgingly only started allowing it under very limited circumstances not that many years ago. That’s why there were no official 59’s on the European tour for the longest time, as a round with preferred lies wasn’t officially counted in the record books. Playing a ball as it lies is golf in it’s truest and most original form, so it was good to see ANGC keep it this way. This is how it is considered an integral part of the game by some, including myself. 

[Jimjam651]

On 11/17/2020 at 5:46 PM, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

From the 11 cap who probably has no concept of the margins these players deal with week to week (look I can talk down as well).

 

Generally speaking I agree that playing it down is preferable, but to me mud goes a bit beyond that and even saying that most of the time they try to avoid it. I certainly don't see mud balls specifically as 'an integral part if the game'. How does driving it in the fairway (where it is more likely to occur) just to have mud on your ball and a resulting random shot, even if you play for it, reliably determine the best player? 

 

What has their handicap got to do with the point you're making? Let's try not to shame or belittles people point of view based on handicaps. 

 

I can understand both points of view, mudballs are unpredictable and, quite frankly, is very bad luck but.... isn't that just golf in a nutshell? 

 

If we allow pick & place for mudballs as they represent bad luck or, as another way to quanitfy it, 'an unfair outcome given the quality of the shot' where do we draw the line? 

 

How much mud does there need to be for it to be declared a mudball? 

 

I feel much the same about divots, how is it right that you smash it down the fairway and end up in a hole? Golf is hard!!

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

10 hours ago, Jimjam651 said:

 

What has their handicap got to do with the point you're making? Let's try not to shame or belittles people point of view based on handicaps. 

 

I can understand both points of view, mudballs are unpredictable and, quite frankly, is very bad luck but.... isn't that just golf in a nutshell? 

 

If we allow pick & place for mudballs as they represent bad luck or, as another way to quanitfy it, 'an unfair outcome given the quality of the shot' where do we draw the line? 

 

How much mud does there need to be for it to be declared a mudball? 

 

I feel much the same about divots, how is it right that you smash it down the fairway and end up in a hole? Golf is hard!!

 

 

I came to have an honest discussion and was met with condescension so I responded in kind.

 

My argument is not that mudballs should be able to be cleaned at all times, but rather that I don't see the issue with lift clean and place in very specific circumstances (i.e. mud balls being very prevalent).

 

And the slippery slope argument is always what's brought up, personally I think playing it out of a divot is a dumb rule but I learned how to do it same as anyone else. We have exceptions for other turf conditions, why weren't those lines hard to draw?

Edited November 20, 2020 by TLUBulldogGolf

[smashdn]

45 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

We have exceptions for other turf conditions, why were those lines so hard to draw?

 

Ground under repair and the putting green are the only ones I can think of.  Ground under repair is a manmade phenomena.  Personally, I think GUR is used too widely based upon how I have seen some local courses apply it for matches.  Hardpan or thin grass is not GUR.  An area around where a sprinkler head has been changed is GUR.  A recently sodded section of ground is GUR.

[golfandfishing]

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Ground under repair and the putting green are the only ones I can think of.  Ground under repair is a manmade phenomena.  Personally, I think GUR is used too widely based upon how I have seen some local courses apply it for matches.  Hardpan or thin grass is not GUR.  An area around where a sprinkler head has been changed is GUR.  A recently sodded section of ground is GUR.

The course I grew up on was decent enough, but there was almost zero reinvestment in the course. The superintendent repainted the same GUR circles for several years. This ground was not undergoing any type of repair, my dad suggested they rename it ground being neglected in a men’s club meeting once. I agree with you that areas that are not perfect should not be GUR unless they are in the process of being repaired. Golf is an outdoor game played on a vast expanse of landscape, uniformity of the ground shouldn’t be expected. Most people can’t keep their fenced in 1/15th acre lawn uniform. If a piece of ground has suffered damage and the facility is fixing it - GUR. If they have decided to simply let it evolve then play it as it lies even if it is just left of the 3rd green at Augusta. 

[smashdn]

I forgot casual water.

 

The most memorable shot I had season before last, maybe even in my golf career, was a shot off of hard pan.  I had hit a pretty decent drive up the left hand side of a par 5.  It just happened to stop where the carts drove off of the fairway and was on bare dirt.  I didn't see any reason to move it.  Pulled a five iron and hit a really nice draw into the green to about 10' and made the putt for eagle.

Edited November 23, 2020 by smashdn

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:59 PM, Bubbtubbs said:

Anybody named Dottie, or Esther, or anything else in that vein is very likely incredibly old.

 

I had to laugh at this, it's true. My Grandmother is 88, and she is Dorothy-Elizabeth. 

[Sean2]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:34 AM, deadsolid...shank said:

While I love the tournament, this is a perfect example of when  the phrase “ get over yourself” is 100% appropriate. That’s just ridiculous. We all know it poured rain there, there is going to be mud. 
 

Can you imagine if there had been fans (yes, fans, not patrons) there, people would have been falling and sliding down the hills all over the course. 

It's a great tournament, but sometimes their elitism can be a bit off-putting.