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How do you measure forgiveness in irons


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I always go by price which determines whether my wife will forgive me when she finds out I have bought new clubs. That's how I measure forgiveness. 

I've never really looked at MOI numbers when it comes to forgiveness, just would hit the clubs and see. I remember when the Epic SZ driver came out it had the highest MOI of all time, and i didn't fin

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24 minutes ago, nev adams said:

Looking at the Mizuno MP-20 and JPX921 sel irons. I wonder what the difference is in forgiveness and how do you measure it?

Any ideas?

If you compare the mp20 and 919 tour mpf data, the 919 is fractionally more forgiving. Not enough to notice a huge difference in my opinion. The blade length in the 919 tour is a touch bigger, that probably attributes to this. I know you asked about 921 but no data on those yet but i assume they are very similar to the 919.

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SEL's and MP-20 are completely different sets that are targeting different golfers. 

 

There is no question that the SEL is a MUCH more forgiving set than the MP-20. The 4 and 5 irons are essentially game improvement level forgiveness given they are the Forged model. The 921 Tour shorter irons are also way more forgiving than the MP-20's. If you need the help there's only one option. 


The other consideration is how you play your golf.  If you like the shape shots the MP-20's are much more workable. I can get the 921 Tours to move both ways but I have to work for it a little. 

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Forgiveness is measured in MOI, moment of inertia.  MOI for the clubhead is the measure of its resistance to twisting on an off center contact. 

 

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I've never really looked at MOI numbers when it comes to forgiveness, just would hit the clubs and see. I remember when the Epic SZ driver came out it had the highest MOI of all time, and i didn't find it super forgiving for a 460cc driver. 

 

I guess some of this is just a personal thing, or how you usually miss

 

It's kind of like bounce to me with wedges. I understand the numbers but i find it doesn't always mean as much to the individual

 

 

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Anecdotally, I find the 921 Tour more forgiving than the MP20. I find the spin consistency a big part of that. Very easy to balloon the MB because they are designed for workability. I think that is something not always factored into forgiveness. Basically, your dynamic loft control is tested and any manipulation of the club face is exaggerated with the COG closer to the hosel. Everything about the tour is more friendly IMO. 

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MOI is certainly quantifiable as is CG location, but a club's forgiveness is going to come down to how you deliver the club.  Based on your delivery coupled with strike location, how well does the resulting shot retain trajectory and distance compared to a perfect strike?  What is your strike pattern?  Distance and location relative to the sweet spot and how far can you stray from center before losing more than 5 or so yards?  That would all be experimentation you'd have to do on your own with a club.  Also factored in is the club's sole and how it jives with your swing.  Is the grind going to kill you if your miss is a smidge heavy? 

 

However, all this is for naught if you've got a head/shaft combo that you just gel with.  A club is forgiving enough if you do nothing but middle it...best of luck!

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Every new club marketed by every major club maker is always more forgiving.

 

So you measure forgiveness by how new a club is.

 

New clubs are always faster and hit farther too.

 

Seriously, 15 years ago Wishon wrote that once you have a moderately sized perimeter weighted club, you’ve maxed out on the benefits of increased MOI.  Have the physics changed?  My reserve set of Ben Hogan BH-5’s from the 2000’s have a pretty high MPF rating.

 

Obviously club makers have done a lot more (superficially at least) than that in the last 15 years.  Seems to me what they have done in addition to de lofting clubs is effectively lower the center of gravity which apparently is designed to help people  who can’t get the ball in the air do so.  Leaving aside the question of why they can’t get it in the air (lack of speed/spin, topping) and how new clubs assist them in doing it (if they really do), I suspect relief from grounders would be considered “forgiveness” by many.  It may be that forgiveness is a wide sole width for when people hit fat (which 92% of golfers do) and a low center of gravity so the club deforms/delofts less for the topped shots that come after the clubs bounces of the ground.

 

In other words, forgiveness may in practice be the propensity of clubs to train (or allow, if you will) the golfer to hit the ball fat and thin.  Thus the reign of the hybrid.

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Upon reading this Maltby chart I find it interesting.

My current JPX 900 forged are 438 points ( conventional)

Yet the 919 tour is  is 433 point and conventional as well.

The 919 forged are 619 points (game improvement)

This is quite shocking to me to see no difference between the 900 forged and 919 tour but a big difference between the 919 forged and the 900 forged. Wish the 921's were listed. 

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5 hours ago, TigerInTheWoods said:

Anecdotally, I find the 921 Tour more forgiving than the MP20. I find the spin consistency a big part of that. Very easy to balloon the MB because they are designed for workability. I think that is something not always factored into forgiveness. Basically, your dynamic loft control is tested and any manipulation of the club face is exaggerated with the COG closer to the hosel. Everything about the tour is more friendly IMO. 

💥👍 spot on with the spin quote. 
 

id find which one gives you optimum numbers and go from there. 
 

I used to catch everything on the inside portion closer to the hosel by 1/2 a ball and found the “more forgiving clubs”  to not feel as good as my blades, but now my misses are 1/2 ball the other way past middle, and my blades became less solid feeling than a some cavity backs.  Strike patterns and spin played a big role in my current club selection.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, nev adams said:

Upon reading this Maltby chart I find it interesting.

My current JPX 900 forged are 438 points ( conventional)

Yet the 919 tour is  is 433 point and conventional as well.

The 919 forged are 619 points (game improvement)

This is quite shocking to me to see no difference between the 900 forged and 919 tour but a big difference between the 919 forged and the 900 forged. Wish the 921's were listed. 

Another poster turned me on to the numbers and told me to focus not on the final number, but VCOG (vertical center of gravity) if you hit down on the ball higher is ok, if you miss low on the face, the lower number is better....... Hope I didn’t mess that up, if so, someone could explain those two important variables better  (VCOG and C-DIM) that will make the final MPF number lower and C-DIM (distance from hosel to sweet spot if I remember correctly..... if not somebody please correct) if you have a low C-Dim number it will lower the MPF as well. If you strike out towards the toe more often than heel, higher numbers are better. 
 

The higher rating MPF is given when a criteria is met. If you don’t fit that criteria, then it’s useless. 
 

My misses were the complete opposite from what the MPF rating would benefit me. I used to miss slightly toward the heel and slightly high on the face. A super game improvement iron would be awful for my misses where a Hogan Blade would have been great ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

My misses now are slightly toe side, but still up on the face rather than a groove low, so the high MPF numbers don’t necessarily mean more forgiving TO ME! 

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21 minutes ago, nev adams said:

Upon reading this Maltby chart I find it interesting.

My current JPX 900 forged are 438 points ( conventional)

Yet the 919 tour is  is 433 point and conventional as well.

The 919 forged are 619 points (game improvement)

This is quite shocking to me to see no difference between the 900 forged and 919 tour but a big difference between the 919 forged and the 900 forged. Wish the 921's were listed. 

 

Don't use the final score to determine forgiveness.  It's the result of a formula that grades "playability" in Ralph Maltby's terms.  In that formula, a low CG far from the hosel are the two most important aspects.  Actual forgiveness plays a lesser role in the formula.

 

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Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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Don't forget shaft in the equation of forgiveness.. 

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1 hour ago, nev adams said:

Upon reading this Maltby chart I find it interesting.

My current JPX 900 forged are 438 points ( conventional)

Yet the 919 tour is  is 433 point and conventional as well.

The 919 forged are 619 points (game improvement)

This is quite shocking to me to see no difference between the 900 forged and 919 tour but a big difference between the 919 forged and the 900 forged. Wish the 921's were listed. 

Don't get too hung up on the final numbers.  VCOG is weighed way too heavily.  MOI barely influences the final score.  Look at what's important to you.  If you struggle with hitting the ball thin, a high COG is going to be rough.  If you miss the sweet spot laterally a little, MOI will be your main focus.  C-Dim shows if a sweet spot is a touch heel side (traditional blade style designs) or it could be that overall blade length is longer, not sure why that measurement isn't listed???

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I bet Nev would really like an answer that included feet or yards, but that's just not gonna happen since it depends on the INDIVIDUAL GOLFER as to what works best for them.

 

The Maltby MPF ratings seem to place more importance on COG placement than MOI, so the MPF ratings are not necessarily referring to accuracy as much as impact friendliness. Personally, I believe a more forgiving iron head should give me tighter dispersion along with better feel. However, testing of these irons suggest both of those depend much more on the player than one would expect.

 

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Shaft can also be a factor. The head design/loft are primary factors in launch, but shaft used for fine-tuning.

1 hour ago, nev adams said:

One thing I don't think I understand is workability. I an iron has more offset will that not make it easier to draw the ball? ( but harder to fade)

Working the ball includes both shot shape (draw vs. fade) and height of shot. Anyone who understands how the golf swing works can hit a basic fade or draw with most clubs.

 

Offset puts the clubface back slightly from the shaft, which gives the clubhead more time to square up. This can help golfers who have trouble slicing the ball. Some golfers need it, others don't.

 

The complaint by some that hybrids are hook machines relates to this. Standard hybrids tend to have quite a bit of offset. The pro or tour heads have less offset - AKA more square face - and thus are favored by golfers worried about hooking the ball. 

 

And, offset is not either/or - some models have more offset than others. SGI irons tend to have a good amount of offset, Players irons minimal offset, GI irons somewhat in between.

 

image.png.7657c39e238d3f99b40f960d45683ebc.pngHint: If you get a new set of irons, use the square blocks of floor tiles to see what square looks like at address. In past I had a new set of irons, with a bit more offset than my previous ones. I was pulling the ball, because what looked like square was about 2 degrees closed. Thus, I had to retrain my eye not to set up with too closed a clubface.

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Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

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4 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Shaft can also be a factor. The head design/loft are primary factors in launch, but shaft used for fine-tuning.

Working the ball includes both shot shape (draw vs. fade) and height of shot. Anyone who understands how the golf swing works can hit a basic fade or draw with most clubs.

 

Offset puts the clubface back slightly from the shaft, which gives the clubhead more time to square up. This can help golfers who have trouble slicing the ball. Some golfers need it, others don't.

 

The complaint by some that hybrids are hook machines relates to this. Standard hybrids tend to have quite a bit of offset. The pro or tour heads have less offset - AKA more square face - and thus are favored by golfers worried about hooking the ball. 

 

And, offset is not either/or - some models have more offset than others. SGI irons tend to have a good amount of offset, Players irons minimal offset, GI irons somewhat in between.

 

image.png.7657c39e238d3f99b40f960d45683ebc.pngHint: If you get a new set of irons, use the square blocks of floor tiles to see what square looks like at address. In past I had a new set of irons, with a bit more offset than my previous ones. I was pulling the ball, because what looked like square was about 2 degrees closed. Thus, I had to retrain my eye not to set up with too closed a clubface.


Dealing with that right now believe it or not with the 921 Tours. I’m used to so little offset in my Miuras (shot irons are onset)  that I’m setting up with a closed face. 

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20 hours ago, nev adams said:

I think RI_Redneck is right but we know that's not possible. I guess I'll have to hit them and see. I'm also going to try the TM 770.

 

One thing I don't think I understand is workability. I an iron has more offset will that not make it easier to draw the ball? ( but harder to fade)

 

 

Again, it depends on the golfer. Personally, I have difficulty aiming irons with more than a 3mm offset. I tend to miss on both sides just because I can't get it right due to doubt and over-correction. Workability is more along the lines of controlled curvature as opposed to curvature in general. For controlled curvature, the golfer has to be keenly aware of where the face is pointing AND their path. Anything that puts doubt into either of those will not be good.

 

BT

 

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Mizuno JPX 850 3w 14.5 - Diamana Kai'Li 80 S @ 43"
Mizuno JPX 850 7w 19.5 - Diamana Kai'Li 80 S @ 41.5"
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My normal miss is a little on the toe, my bad miss is high and on the toe. Based on that I judge forgiveness by how close to hole high each of those shots gets and how wide the dispersion on those is. I think the only way to do that is to hit them.

 

The challenge is then weighing forgiveness vs what you might be giving up to get it. E.g. how well can I work the ball? What's the trajectory and spin like? Can I hit punch shots? How do they look / feel? etc.

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On 11/15/2020 at 9:39 PM, nev adams said:

Looking at the Mizuno MP-20 and JPX921 sel irons. I wonder what the difference is in forgiveness and how do you measure it?

Any ideas?

 

The club which consistently produces the most solid contact shots is the most "forgiving".

In other words, if a large head iron produces 5 solid shots out of 10, and a relatively small head produces 7 solid shots out of 10, the smaller head is more forgiving than the large head.

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5 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The club which consistently produces the most solid contact shots is the most "forgiving".

In other words, if a large head iron produces 5 solid shots out of 10, and a relatively small head produces 7 solid shots out of 10, the smaller head is more forgiving than the large head.

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On 11/16/2020 at 5:06 AM, Moonlightgrm said:

No guess work when Maltby has done the work for you. Look here: https://www.golfworks.com/iron-head-mpf-ratings/a/870/

Except the 921’s aren’t on the list yet.

 

side note the wilson v6 tours are a classic players? Who knew. I always felt they had a good level of forgiveness.

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On 11/15/2020 at 11:40 PM, kiwihacker said:

I always go by price which determines whether my wife will forgive me when she finds out I have bought new clubs. That's how I measure forgiveness. 

Me too!  I think you're my brother from another mother!

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