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I went for a full bag fitting with club champion over the past two weeks, and I’m not sure if I trust their recommendations. I joined a golf club during pandemic and I’ve been working on the range or course 3-4 days a week to improve. 5’10” and workout 4+ days a week.

 

I’ve been using some used clubs I bought 4 years ago as golfsmith was going out of business. When I bought them, I didn’t realize they were 1” long. They also have 120 g c taper shafts, go with the length measure at d6.

 

He fit me to 790s 1” over and 1* flat, and 1.5* strong. At the end of it, my 5 iron looks like a 3 iron. Of course it goes further than normal spec on other irons. I think he tried to match the spec to the same weight I have in my accidental used clubs. 
 

Ping static fitting has me at standard length and 2* upright, and i did a Cleveland fitting where they said the same thing. I think my swing has gotten very flat to accommodate the 1” long clubs I’ve been playing with (which have a hook tendency).
 

Should I trust the dynamic fitting for where my swing is now, or should I go with the other fittings I’ve done for where a standard  size club makes more sense for improvement? I know they are supposed to be experts, but it just felt like I was being gamed into the Taylormade clubs. Not sure if they have the best commission right now. 

 

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Did you ask these questions in your fitting?

It sounds to me like...   Club Champion fit your swing   You want to be fit to what you want your swing to be.   If your AoA is overly steep... unless you're reducing dyn

That is just a bad idea to take those lofts and make them even stronger. Absolutely wrong way to go about things. I would suggest choking up an inch with your current clubs and see how that goes

6 minutes ago, golfman1023 said:

Did you ask these questions in your fitting?

I did ask him. I actually had to do a follow up session because full bags are hard all at once. At about 250 swings I was gassed. I wasn’t hitting standard length great, but I think part of that is that I’ve gotten used to +1”. My swing is flat because of it, and I do find myself inconsistent.
 

I also just wasn’t a fan of turning a 5 iron into a 3 iron. I know it’s just a number, but a 22* 5 iron feels absurd to me. Maybe it just left a bad taste in my mouth, and if I looked at standard lengths (instead of +1), it wouldn’t feel as strange. I think it came down to the swingweight he was trying to match, but also pushing Taylormade instead of being unbiased.

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That is just a bad idea to take those lofts and make them even stronger. Absolutely wrong way to go about things.

I would suggest choking up an inch with your current clubs and see how that goes for the length. You may need to add some lead tape to them to get the feel back to where it is at 1 inch over. Or just some time getting used to it. I am guessing the standard length clubs felt too light and that made you hit them worse.

 

No real reason to go 1 inch over at 5'10'' until you have tiny T-rex arms or have back issues and can't bend comfortably.

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13 minutes ago, golfman1023 said:

Did you have adequate spin and land angle? 

They were fine, but I think that was due to me coming in with a sweeping motion due to the length instead of compressing the irons. My angle of attack seemed to be overly steep (like -8*+) when I think it’s supposed to be closer to the -1 to -2 range. I think I’ve read that could be due to having irons too long and causing inconsistency. Reading more, I do have problems with hitting fat and thing which also seems to be an indication of too long irons.

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7 minutes ago, Adam C said:

That is just a bad idea to take those lofts and make them even stronger. Absolutely wrong way to go about things.

I would suggest choking up an inch with your current clubs and see how that goes for the length. You may need to add some lead tape to them to get the feel back to where it is at 1 inch over. Or just some time getting used to it. I am guessing the standard length clubs felt too light and that made you hit them worse.

 

No real reason to go 1 inch over at 5'10'' until you have tiny T-rex arms or have back issues and can't bend comfortably.


honestly, I think that’s what he was trying to do. I using old Apex pros from 2013 with heavy c taper shafts. He weighed them at d6. In order to get the club close to d6 with the steel fiber i95s I was hitting so well, he lengthened them and strengthened the lofts. I think in reality it would have been better to go with a heavier shaft instead and keep standard length to get the same results.

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It sounds to me like...

 

Club Champion fit your swing

 

You want to be fit to what you want your swing to be.

 

If your AoA is overly steep... unless you're reducing dynamic loft by a massive amount... I bet you spin the blazes out of the ball. Your spin loft window would be massive.

 

Do you know what your dynamic lofts were compared to your static lofts? If you're getting reasonable spin and land angle with a 22 degree P790 5 iron, the overwhelming odds are you're a steep flipper. 

 

.. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, golfman1023 said:

It sounds to me like...

 

Club Champion fit your swing

 

You want to be fit to what you want your swing to be.

 

If your AoA is overly steep... unless you're reducing dynamic loft by a massive amount... I bet you spin the blazes out of the ball. Your spin loft window would be massive.

 

Do you know what your dynamic lofts were compared to your static lofts? If you're getting reasonable spin and land angle with a 22 degree P790 5 iron, the overwhelming odds are you're a steep flipper. 

 

.. 

 

 


That’s fair, but since I’m working pretty much daily on my swing to improve, should I buy clubs based on where I am today, or should I try to find clubs that fit where I want to improve to be? I know that’s an almost unanswerable question. Maybe I just had a bad experience, or I just didn’t communicate well enough with the fitter. I was there for a long time, but I’ve done so much research prior to going I can’t just be happy with what I feel like isn’t a good fitting for where I want to improve to. 
 

I do think your assessment is correct, but I’m trying to fix those things in order to be more consistent. I guess I wasn’t clear enough with the fitter and he fit my current swing. 

Edited by SugarLandGolfer
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You need to see a golf professional/instructor who can help you figure out what you need. It certainly seems like CC fit your current swing, but you seem like an athletic guy that could make anything kind of work.  Find a good respected pro, explain to him your goals, let him know you're open to changing your equipment to get there and he should be able to help you figure it out.

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I think trying to fit a hypothetical is an impossibility. I'm sure the guy at CC saw your spin and dynamic loft were way too high and went to the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

I'd recommend getting your swing where you want it, and see what fits you at that point.

 

It's tough to ask a fitter to predict the future. Perhaps... find a coach who is also a fitter... and work with him longer term 

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I think I’m getting into the age old chicken and egg discussion now. Should I use my I’ll fitting clubs now (or buy expensive clubs that are fit to my not so perfect swing) and take lessons with those I’ll fitting clubs, or should I get clubs that are fit more towards a standard for my size (using ping fitting as example) and then work with a pro to fix my swing first, then fit later. I don’t want to have to buy clubs twice in short order (unlike some here who seem to buy clubs weekly).

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The reason you're in a chicken or egg... is because you're over-emphasizing the role of the golf club. 

 

You can get yourself to whatever set of impact conditions you're aiming for, with any set of clubs.

 

Your AoA and Dynamic Loft aren't because your clubs aren't fit. It's because of a fundamental movement pattern with your body.

 

If anything... longer clubs should shallow you out more. 

Edited by golfman1023
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I don't. I went for a putter fitting. I don't know a lot now, but I knew a lot less then and just put my trust in their hands. I was given a SC Newport to try. I proceeded to sink something like 10 putts in a row. He said that's your new putter; can't do better. I bought it.

 

Well, once you get a line and a distance feel, it's really not that hard to make a lot of the same putts. It can probably be done with a long-handled hammer or broom. Using a semi-mallet now with very different offset. I found the "fitting" session to be very superficial at best, but I do own a SC Newport in mint condition.

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16 minutes ago, dblinden said:

I don't. I went for a putter fitting. I don't know a lot now, but I knew a lot less then and just put my trust in their hands. I was given a SC Newport to try. I proceeded to sink something like 10 putts in a row. He said that's your new putter; can't do better. I bought it.

 

Well, once you get a line and a distance feel, it's really not that hard to make a lot of the same putts. It can probably be done with a long-handled hammer or broom. Using a semi-mallet now with very different offset. I found the "fitting" session to be very superficial at best, but I do own a SC Newport in mint condition.

I got almost nothing out of the putter fitting, but I blame that on 2 things. 1) I sank like 6 putts in a row warming up using my own putter, and 2) I had just done a fitting with L.A.B. Golf at my club that was excellent. Those putters blew anything club champion was offering out of the water, so I passed.

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I personally know two CC fitters and they aren't exactly what I would consider professional fitters.  I worked for one of the OEMs on tour admittedly before TrackMan so I'm not up with all the fitting technology and I was also a fairly accomplished PGA Professional but I would be hard pressed to think of someone who is 5'10" and fit properly into inch over irons.

 

It sounds like you're at a fairly well equipped club so I would see if they have a demo 790 at STD specs and take it out on the course with you.  

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If I'm not mistaken, a measurement of upright or flat from OEM to OEM is not the same as lie angles from OEMs aren't the same.

 

Example: Callaway Mavrik lie angle on a 7 iron is listed at 62.5* and 7 iron lie angle on a Mizuno JPX HM is listed at 61.5. So 1 degree upright for both of those clubs is not equal.

 

Something to keep in mind as you're working with fitters. Would ask for the actual lie angle they are measuring you to during fitting as that is what will transfer from OEM to OEM

 

^^^I learned this the hard way^^^

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2 hours ago, cn34 said:

If I'm not mistaken, a measurement of upright or flat from OEM to OEM is not the same as lie angles from OEMs aren't the same.

 

Example: Callaway Mavrik lie angle on a 7 iron is listed at 62.5* and 7 iron lie angle on a Mizuno JPX HM is listed at 61.5. So 1 degree upright for both of those clubs is not equal.

 

Something to keep in mind as you're working with fitters. Would ask for the actual lie angle they are measuring you to during fitting as that is what will transfer from OEM to OEM

 

^^^I learned this the hard way^^^


the standard length and lie angles are pretty similar betweeen the ping, Cleveland and p790 actually. 
 

The ping static fitting that was 2* upright moving the lie on the 6 iron to 63.5* roughly matched the Cleveland fitting at my club. Both recommend standard length. CC recommended 1” longer than their standard and 60.5* for the 6 iron at 25* (1.5* strong) loft. It just didn’t seem right to me. 

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Why not try cutting your clubs down to standard length and adjusting the lie angles on them to what you think you want then try make the swing changes?

 

If you aren't happy with the fit of your clubs and don't want to change clubs twice then all this will cost is a set of grips and a lie angle change. Probably cost under 100 quid. 

 

If it doesn't work then you have only spent 100 instead of several 100's possibly into 1000. 

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Some good advice already. If you want to self fit/tweak I would: 

 

Go to the range with the W, 8, and 6. Bring some AF powder and measure your strikes. Choke down 1/2", then 1". Repeat. Any pattern emerge? 

 

Now when striking fairly ok, time to whip out the sharpie on the range ball (nice if the range balls already have a black or blue line on them) and get a basic idea of your relative delivery and if your lie angle is OK or not. This may take a while but get some decent strikes and and compare them mark with the picture (posted here in other threads, Howard and others have shared the image. I have it on my phone) 

 

Now you have some decent data, and armed with that can tweak the clubs. P790s bend OK, not super easy (forged my arse) but they are not pings. I would not want them strong either, I blend them currently so had to weaken them. Otherwise I like the P770s and their less strong lofts 🙂 

 

 

 

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Club Champion has a tendency(Not ALL of them but many) to fit for distance on irons regardless of anything else.  I have helped at least 3 friends fix their club champion results.

 

The best thing you can get out of CC is the ability to hit piles of head and shaft combos.  There you can decide on what has you hitting your target the most often(best dispersion).  Do not worry much if at all about distance you hit a club in their system.  You should know the LPGA and PGA average launch, descent, and spin numbers before going in.  Use these numbers to figure out about where you should be for them, remember that spin can be affected off of mats for most people.  Proper delivery of the club to get the least amount of dispersion is the biggest issue.  Heads can be tweaked for loft and lie separately once you know your best dispersion shaft head and weight combo. 

 

For me, I know based on trackman that with a 7 iron I lose about 250 RPM when hitting off of most club champion mats on a good swing that produces my standard 5 yard cut.  I know that I lose about 120 RPM on my knock down draw shot that draws about 10 yards.  I know my launch is different too off of mats, not a ton but 0.5 degrees.  I have not been to a CC site in 4+ years.  Between getting fitted from one of the best and learning from him before he retired, and a check up every 4 years or so on a outdoor Trackman I know what fits me the best.   However I keep an extra head now of my gamers to swap shafts in and out of(5 iron and 8 iron).  I have thought about going club connex for them but have not gotten there yet.  I now use this to test out new shafts in my irons rather than spend the money in CC.

 

The problem is, it isn't the same fore everyone.  Some people are very flex feeling, some are very balance feeling, some are somewhere in the middle to deliver a club properly.  My best golfing buddy can play Senior shafts up to X flex shafts and not much changes.  He has a very languid swing without much of a transition.  He is more susceptible to weight and balance than flex.  I have another friend who has a violent transition and is more susceptible to flex than weight.  He can play anything from 90 grams to 130 grams in his irons as long as the actual CPM's are pretty close.

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I dropped in the Houston store last Thursday with my Scotty Cameron Mil-Spec to have the lie checked.  I tried to call ahead of time to make sure they could do it while I waited.  All calls are routed to their corporate office so you can’t actually talk to anyone in the store.  The guy at corporate tells me they are pretty booked that day but have a break around 12:30 and should be able to take care of it.  I walk in a little after 12:30 and one guy is doing a fitting and the other guy is behind the counter eating lunch and watching The Masters.  Told him what  I needed and that I had called the corporate office before coming blah,blah,blah.  As he’s looking over my putter, which is marked “Flat” on the sole, I explained that I purchased it off eBay several years ago and I’ve always believed it was a bit upright.  I asked him if 70* is standard?  (I already know that is standard for Scotty’s).  He responds, “There is no “Standard” for putters.  Really? Ok.  He sets my putter in the machine and it registers 70.75.  I asked him to bring it down to 69.    He bent it to 70 and wouldn’t go any further for fear of breaking it.  
 

I know this has nothing to do with your experience but I didn’t get a good vibe from the place.  I was struck by the store not looking anything like the photos from the corporate website.  It’s actually in an old run down strip center.  If I ever need a fitting, I’ll find somewhere else to go.

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