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Best Device to Prevent Casting & Flipping


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I am not an instructor, but I respectfully disagree with you as well. Lack of rotation and loss of spine angle don't just happen on their own. Impact is a byproduct of everything that happens before i

There is an undiagnosed fault here, that you need to know before you choose a drill or training aid.    

In reality, if you are able to eliminate the flip without addressing the root cause, the most likely outcome is you will hit it worse.

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The Wrist angles are changing in the downswing - think it was 149 out of 150 Tour Pro measured that are in the process of extending the left wrist coming into impact (extending does not mean extended).

 

Having said that there is a device to give you the required feel - it's called the impact snap device, originally developed by Kelvin Miyahira.

 

I'd advise the best feel for it is to move the wrists in transition... as per in Monte's No Turn Cast video - the newer full length video has a quite long thread going on it now... and to be honest, you'd be better off spending the money on THAT video rather than on the Impact snap ( and to be clear I do own an impact snap and I also have bought Monte's video... and it's Monte's video that finally made the impact snap make sense to me, although it isn't needed at all)

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8 hours ago, coops said:

The Wrist angles are changing in the downswing - think it was 149 out of 150 Tour Pro measured that are in the process of extending the left wrist coming into impact (extending does not mean extended).

 

Having said that there is a device to give you the required feel - it's called the impact snap device, originally developed by Kelvin Miyahira.

 

I'd advise the best feel for it is to move the wrists in transition... as per in Monte's No Turn Cast video - the newer full length video has a quite long thread going on it now... and to be honest, you'd be better off spending the money on THAT video rather than on the Impact snap ( and to be clear I do own an impact snap and I also have bought Monte's video... and it's Monte's video that finally made the impact snap make sense to me, although it isn't needed at all)

He doesn't want advice, he wants a device! 

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On 11/17/2020 at 9:29 AM, McSmitherson said:

I'm a low handicap, but have plateaued due to the inconsistencies with my impact from one day to the next.  When my timing is good I'll shoot Even par.  When its bad maybe +10.  I just invested in some winter indoor golf equipment and I'd like to dedicate the winter to improving impact.  Based on some slo mo video I took, I am still casting the club and as a result, not rotating through and then flipping at impact to square it up.

 

I worked on a couple of drills but so far I'm not seeing any results.  I know its going to take time and drills vs a snake oil potion, but I just can't seem to even FEEL what it should feel like to come through with the wrist angle maintained and rotate through.  What I feel definitely ain't real.

 

So what are the best devices for me to be able to feel what it should be?  Swingyde, Power Package, Anti-flip Stick, etc?  Or would the Planemate accomplish these and help my inside path?  Not sure if casting would cause the band to tension or not.  Based on reviews seems like it helps stop flipping because the band would go across your forearm.  But I don't want to drop $165 if it doesn't fix the root cause (my plane is ok until I cast).

 

TIA

 

 

Do yourself a giant favor and do an online lesson with @MonteScheinblum and use code insta25 for $25 off.  It will save you an immense amount of time and frustration.  I just did one for some lower body sequencing issues and it was money well spent.  Wish i would have done it sooner.

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8 minutes ago, McSmitherson said:

Dude, you are insufferable.

 

He provided me the name of a device, not advice.  I'm getting swing advice elsewhere.  This is a very specific topic, yet you want to keep posting the same bullxxxx here.  Move on.

 

As are you, because you keep telling us we aren't listening, but you aren't listening either. We are NOT giving swing advice, we are saying the device without the proper application isn't going to work or might actually cause negative results. The cure had to match the condition

 

And I did recommend a device, it's the 300 yard impact. My second would be the planemate. Good luck!

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14 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

@ALIF

@Liveonce

 

Ones I see all the time.  
Vertical shaft in transition, right shoulder drops.  Flip, cast, fat, two way miss.

Too much sway in either or both directions.

Ironically, when people try to rotate too early and too much, creating a sequencing gap more than the .02 seconds you see in elite players.  
 

It’s never not enough rotation.  It’s always incorrect rotation or early and/or excessive rotation.  

My issue when I flip is Being out of sequence I believe. Trail hip fires too early, hands are caught behind my body so they release early and flip or left wrist breaks down and I have to hold the face off which results in a pull hook

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Flipping is defined as extending your lead wrist in the impact zone . This results in the opposite of shaft lean , added loft , and greater likelihood of hitting the ball in the lower grooves . 

Why do you flip, simply to CLOSE  the club face. 

NOW  Eliminating the flip, is a dual edged sword . On the positive side you create shaft lean;however ,you also advance the hands relative to the clubhead resulting in the  clubface facing more to the right 

 For many golfers , the problem is that the flip is so INGRAINED that they need to overly emphasize FLEXING the lead wrist thru impact . Such devices as the “Tic-tac wrist “training aid  and the “Tour Striker Click it “ can provide audible feedback or the “DaVinci TGT arm “aid can provide tactile feedback to improve impact conditions.

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2 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Flipping is defined as extending your lead wrist in the impact zone . This results in the opposite of shaft lean , added loft , and greater likelihood of hitting the ball in the lower grooves . 

Why do you flip, simply to CLOSE  the club face. 

NOW  Eliminating the flip, is a dual edged sword . On the positive side you create shaft lean;however ,you also advance the hands relative to the clubhead resulting in the  clubface facing more to the right 

 For many golfers , the problem is that the flip is so INGRAINED that they need to overly emphasize FLEXING the lead wrist thru impact . Such devices as the “Tic-tac wrist “training aid  and the “Tour Striker Click it “ can provide audible feedback or the “DaVinci TGT arm “aid can provide tactile feedback to improve impact conditions.

This issue with this is the relationship isn't a two way street since the flip isn't just to square the face, it's to actually make contact since you are out of position.

 

I agree if you get proper forward shaft lean, you then need to start flexing the lead wrist into impact to square the face.  But flexing the lead wrist into impact absolutely does not guarantee you will get forward shaft lean. If you are a stalled out/EE flipper and all you did was hold that angle, you'd either completely miss the ball or start moving your body out of position to get the club down to the ball. So those devices really only become useful once you fix the sequencing issues, start getting proper shaft lean and are blocking everything right

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 The anatomical definition  of extension/ flexion is clear -either tilting your hand toward the inside of your wrist( flexing or bowing ) or tilting your hand toward the outside ( extension or cupping).Rotation is not part of the definition of either extension or flexion , since the wrist is NOT  anatomically capable of rotation . By this standard definition there is  absolutely NO basis to think that flexing the lead wrist will by ITSELF square the clubface. On the CONTRARY , flexing the lead wrist will advance the hands relative to the  clubhead , resulting in the clubface pointing more to right. 

 

Ee is an obvious compensation and is often accompanied by stalling . Those faults create  a number of problems; among them trying to get the club on the ball as you mentioned. But If  the clubface  is NOT also open and the lead wrist extends, then the golfer will hit the ball off of the planet left.

 

 

 

Those long time golfers who both flip and stall can especially benefit from these devices .

In order to hit the ball relatively straight , they have compensated for their insufficient hip rotation by flipping . Flipping is such an ingrained habit that it is very difficult to eliminate without some “shock therapy” such as provided by these devices .

If such golfers use these devices  and stop flipping , they will start hitting the ball right . Now how will they correct hitting balls to the right. They will be forced to NOT STALL their pivot and pivot more aggressively through the ball. 

It is not a bad idea to think of flipping as the other side of the hip stall . If one is eliminated the other will improve.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

 The anatomical definition  of extension/ flexion is clear -either tilting your hand toward the inside of your wrist( flexing or bowing ) or tilting your hand toward the outside ( extension or cupping).Rotation is not part of the definition of either extension or flexion , since the wrist is NOT  anatomically capable of rotation . By this standard definition there is  absolutely NO basis to think that flexing the lead wrist will by ITSELF square the clubface. On the CONTRARY , flexing the lead wrist will advance the hands relative to the  clubhead , resulting in the clubface pointing more to right. 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not sure this is quite right. The wrist itself may not rotate, but flexion/extension directly rotate the face relative to the shaft, which ultimately dictates face angle at impact once combined with the other wrist/arm movements (supination, ulnar deviation). Tyler Ferrel's book does a good job breaking down how each wrist movement dictates the face angle and shaft pitch

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If you want a device .... or 2. 
 

Get a cardboard box to stand in that is the width of you stance and. Ones up to your knees ..... that’ll stop the sway and encourage your pivot instead. 
 

Get a stool or similar that you can slide your butt along to place behind you. 
 

Last device is some form of phone or tablet to get hold of @MonteScheinblum and thank him for the free of charge advice he’s already given you. You could even use it for a video lesson whilst standing in the box to ensure that your other swing issues don’t cause you to fall out of the box. 

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There are two anatomical movements which can rotate the wrist/hand and thus the shaft

a.Rotation of the lower arm or forearm -either pronation or supination 

b.Rotation of the upper arm or humerus- either external or internal rotation

 

Extension/ Flexion is not one of these, although it can be a coupled motion, meaning that it is more likely when other movements happen.When you flex your lead forearm you are tilting your hand  towards your forearm . Any rotation of the clubhead is caused by forearm  rotation and/ or rotation of the humerus.

 

Tyler Ferrell has written an excellent book for golf nerds, although he has left out some details on how to accomplish some of his suggested moves. However , it is not a book to consult on anatomical movements..Instead there are numerous sources on anatomy on the Internet 

 

One point which I take issue with him is in the differences  on how flexion affects the clubface at various places in the swing.

He states that flexion of the lead wrist while the wrist is ulnar deviated will point the clubface more to the right, or open the clubface which is certainly true .He also states that flexion while the wrist is radial deviated will close the  clubface. How does the same movement affect the clubface in the opposite way?And If flexion closes the clubface does  that mean that extension  while the wrist is radially deviated will open the  clubface.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, DaveMc82 said:

If you want a device .... or 2. 
 

Get a cardboard box to stand in that is the width of you stance and. Ones up to your knees ..... that’ll stop the sway and encourage your pivot instead. 
 

Get a stool or similar that you can slide your butt along to place behind you. 
 

Last device is some form of phone or tablet to get hold of @MonteScheinblum and thank him for the free of charge advice he’s already given you. You could even use it for a video lesson whilst standing in the box to ensure that your other swing issues don’t cause you to fall out of the box. 

 

Thanks for the input.  I already do similar things to what you mention.  I use a chair propped against by left side to help stop the forward sway and force rotation. I use the wall drill (pockets against the wall) to feel rotation with spine angle.  As I mentioned, I'm good on the other aspects of the swing advice side of things.  I know Monte is a legend here, but I've got other avenues I'm going down for my own reasons.


I'm a "feel" to learn type of person and was just hoping there might be something to help "feel" the wrist angle being maintained further through impact.  Not generating more lag.  Just maintaining and staying more connected.

 

As an update, I started using a coat hanger last night with some success/results.  Still looking into the other options but this was free while I do that and helps.  I'm thinking the planemate might be a better option as it should also help the rotation aspect, but tough to stomach the cost of that for some bungee cords and a WWE belt.  I may have to dig up the DIY thread.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

There are two anatomical movements which can rotate the wrist/hand and thus the shaft

a.Rotation of the lower arm or forearm -either pronation or supination 

b.Rotation of the upper arm or humerus- either external or internal rotation

 

Extension/ Flexion is not one of these, although it can be a coupled motion, meaning that it is more likely when other movements happen. When you flex your lead forearm you are tilting your hand  towards your forearm . Any rotation of the clubhead is caused by forearm  rotation and/ or rotation of the humerus

 

 

 

Let's say you are at a nice P6, club head right behind the hands, shaft is nearly 90* relative to the forearms, but lead wrist cupped and toe of the club pointing away from the target line.  You flex the  lead wrist, the shaft stays right on plane while the face closes relative to the path and now faces slightly towards the ground. Does this action not directly influence face angle at impact and does this happen because of rotation of the upper or lower arm? 

 

 

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15 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

There are two anatomical movements which can rotate the wrist/hand and thus the shaft

a.Rotation of the lower arm or forearm -either pronation or supination 

b.Rotation of the upper arm or humerus- either external or internal rotation

 

Extension/ Flexion is not one of these, although it can be a coupled motion, meaning that it is more likely when other movements happen.When you flex your lead forearm you are tilting your hand  towards your forearm . Any rotation of the clubhead is caused by forearm  rotation and/ or rotation of the humerus.

 

Tyler Ferrell has written an excellent book for golf nerds, although he has left out some details on how to accomplish some of his suggested moves. However , it is not a book to consult on anatomical movements..Instead there are numerous sources on anatomy on the Internet 

 

One point which I take issue with him is in the differences  on how flexion affects the clubface at various places in the swing.

He states that flexion of the lead wrist while the wrist is ulnar deviated will point the clubface more to the right, or open the clubface which is certainly true .He also states that flexion while the wrist is radial deviated will close the  clubface. How does the same movement affect the clubface in the opposite way?And If flexion closes the clubface does  that mean that extension  while the wrist is radially deviated will open the  clubface.

 

 

 

You continuously misunderstand club face rotation vs. shaft rotation.  Please stop giving incorrect advice to people who may not know any better.

 

Rotation of the forearm absolutely rotates the shaft.  You are correct there.  Rotating the shaft on an arc does not equal club face rotation.  Flexion and extension of the wrists rotates the club face, while the shaft remains on the same arc.  You've conflated the two, and you have been called out on it several times before.

 

That in itself is not a big issue, but you seem intent on disagreeing with people with a greater understanding of club face control in regards to wrist and forearm movements.

 

Break:

 

For the sake of good info in the thread, flexion and extension of the wrist primarily effects club face rotation, whereas forearm rotation primarily effects shaft orientation.  

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Please do not continue to associate rotation with flexion/extension.

Rotation  is anatomically IMPOSSIBLE with just flexion/ extension.

When flexion/ extension  happens the hand tilts either towards the wrist or away from the wrist . It can NOT ROTATE  the shaft or the  clubface . Rotation is associated with pronation/ supination of the forearm and/or  rotation of the humerus caused by external / internal rotation of the shoulder.

But  as I mentioned previously ,Flexion  of the lead risk definitely   effects the ORIENTATION of the clubhead not by rotation but by advancing the hands relative to the clubhead  . And extension does the opposite . 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Please do not continue to associate rotation with flexion/extension.

Rotation  is anatomically IMPOSSIBLE with just flexion/ extension.

When flexion/ extension  happens the hand tilts either towards the wrist or away from the wrist . It can NOT ROTATE  the shaft or the  clubface . Rotation is associated with pronation/ supination of the forearm and/or  rotation of the humerus caused by external / internal rotation of the shoulder.

But  as I mentioned previously ,Flexion  of the lead risk definitely   effects the ORIENTATION of the clubhead not by rotation but by advancing the hands relative to the clubhead  . And extension does the opposite . 

 

 

 

 

Sorry bud, you are off base and repeating yourself isn’t going to change that. I think you dismissing the fact that the shaft/face can rotate about two different axes during the swing, it can rotate within the plane and it can rotate independently of the plane. 

 

When you ride a motorcycle and turn the throttle, it’s pure extension of the right wrist and the throttle tube rotates. Now imagine if that the throttle tube has a club extending out of it, as you turn the throttle the club face would rotate freely, just like it can at p6. At that position with just flexion/extension you can rotate the face, the shaft stays on plane, and the hand position relative to the club head doesn’t change at all. If the club face is open at that point, that’s typically where the right hand can take over and you flip.
 

Perhaps you are only thinking around impact once you have already ulnar deviated, in which case the forearms take over because the wrists can’t independently flex/extend in that position. Good players start squaring of the face with flexion well before that, it’s why p6 is typically a good position to check the face condition.

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4 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

Please do not continue to associate rotation with flexion/extension.

Rotation  is anatomically IMPOSSIBLE with just flexion/ extension.

When flexion/ extension  happens the hand tilts either towards the wrist or away from the wrist . It can NOT ROTATE  the shaft or the  clubface . Rotation is associated with pronation/ supination of the forearm and/or  rotation of the humerus caused by external / internal rotation of the shoulder.

But  as I mentioned previously ,Flexion  of the lead risk definitely   effects the ORIENTATION of the clubhead not by rotation but by advancing the hands relative to the clubhead  . And extension does the opposite . 

 

 

 

 

You seem to have no clue what you are talking about, and you are without question spreading bad information.  Either you can't comprehend the difference between arc and club face, or you are intentionally being obtuse.  Either way, you should not be giving advice on the subject.  

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As off the rails this has become, it has been very informative and a good learning source for some of us in the bleachers.  Very cool so many are willing and offering their input/suggestions/knowledge, that's what makes this forum so unique.  Now whether or not that info is accepted or appreciated or used, that's a matter for another day.

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