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Mizuno and Faldo show difference between blades and newer clubs...it’s the loft


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Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

If you strike the ball like Nick Faldo... sure.   For everyone else it's a different story. 

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Youtube reviewers definitely don't hit the middle all the time. Even tour pros don't hit the middle all of the time - I've seen shocking shots on tour including flat out tops with any number of clubs. If you strike anything right out of the extremes of the club it's going to be disastrous - no amount of tech can save you. I've hit so many clubs with perimeter weighting over the past 20 years and they all pretty much give the same results. The differences that matter and are player dependant are the amount of offset and the sole. A few grams more weight spread out is irrelevant. 

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22 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

How else should I have read his use of "magic elixir" ?  It sure seemed like he was telling people how to think.

 

Shaft length is the other variable, and that really matters.  The shorter the shaft the easier the club is to hit.  You could just as easily say "my 37 inch club now goes 10 yards farther" than "my 7 goes 10 yards farther".  Different golfers will gap better with strong lofts, others won't.  Its not strictly bad.  Its a marketing gimmick but its not a fake one because they are not increasing the shaft length.  That's why his comment is both ignorant and condescending.  They didn't cross out a 6 and write a 7.  The club is still a half-inch shorter, and swing-weighted accordingly.  That matters.

Of course shaft length matters. Also I've met plenty of weekend golfers who do think it's a magic elixir. There's nothing wrong with it and I've long given up telling them about the loft changes. Golf is hard and as long as they're happy I'm cool with that. 

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14 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

How else should I have read his use of "magic elixir" ?  It sure seemed like he was telling people how to think.

 

Shaft length is the other variable, and that really matters.  The shorter the shaft the easier the club is to hit.  You could just as easily say "my 37 inch club now goes 10 yards farther" than "my 7 goes 10 yards farther".  Different golfers will gap better with strong lofts, others won't.  Its not strictly bad.  Its a marketing gimmick but its not a fake one because they are not increasing the shaft length.  That's why his comment is both ignorant and condescending.  They didn't cross out a 6 and write a 7.  The club is still a half-inch shorter, and swing-weighted accordingly.  That matters.

This has been happening for decades. Cobra was one of the first to offer stronger lofts with their King Cobra irons. I have a set of Ping Eye 2 irons and the lofts are much weaker than most of todays iron sets. My question is: does it really matter? I know many people equate distance with overall golf ability. There's no question bombing the ball out there off the tee is an advantage. However as Hogan once said how far one hits an iron is not as important as how close to the flag. 

We all love to tell our buddies we hit a six iron into #7 knowing they had to play a five from the same spot. However, if they made three and I made four; it really didn't matter. I think  knowing how far and how close you can hit each iron  in your bag no matter the loft is what's really important.

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1 minute ago, Hogan9 said:

This has been happening for decades. Cobra was one of the first to offer stronger lofts with their King Cobra irons. I have a set of Ping Eye 2 irons and the lofts are much weaker than most of todays iron sets. My question is: does it really matter? I know many people equate distance with overall golf ability. There's no question bombing the ball out there off the tee is an advantage. However as Hogan once said how far one hits an iron is not as important as how close to the flag. 

We all love to tell our buddies we hit a six iron into #7 knowing they had to play a five from the same spot. However, if they made three and I made four; it really didn't matter. I think  knowing how far and how close you can hit each iron  in your bag no matter the loft is what's really important.


nobody would ever disagree with that. The issue is whether strong lofts can help some golfers achieve what you describe. And the answer is absolutely “yes” because the length of the shaft to loft ratio is different.

 

what you’ve written here is correct but some players *will* get better gapping from strong lofts (If shaft length stays constant) and they don’t need bozos telling them they’re being fooled if their gapping is good.

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I've wondered about gapping. I'll probably be changing irons before long. I'm 70 and I think going to graphite shafts will help with the wear and tear. I'm playing Mizuno JPX 850 forged now, but was a Hogan player before that. I'm intrigued with the "new" Hogans. They have 4* gaps through the entire set and the lofts are slightly stronger. What are your thoughts on that?

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1 hour ago, GBBM said:

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

Let's see. My 7 iron is 35°. Most seem to be 30° these days. Or some of the latest offerings are 27°. So stamping a 7 on a 5 iron is even more appealing. 

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On 11/18/2020 at 8:34 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Lol.  The condescending comments usually come from the guy announcing what he hit on each par 3.   Until  you say “what loft is that “.  

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As I've said before. I look forward to the day one of the manufacturers releases a 21° Pitching wedge and 7 or 8 Gap Wedges until you get to a 54-56° Sand wedge.

 

Then I can brag that I hit Driver/Wedge on most holes.

 

Just like Bryson Dechambeau. 

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16 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

I've seen that video before and even though it is an oldish video the principle is still very valid today (unless the laws of physics suddenly change).

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"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.


It seems as if simple facts are causing some serious cognitive dissonance here.
 

Despite your rabid accusations, I couldn’t care less what anyone uses or how they think about the game. I don’t like seeing people falling into the same trap I did and spending a small fortune for all the new forgiveness and distance technology only to realize they’ve been sold a bill of goods.
 

The VCOG really isn’t that low on a lot of the GI clubs; they’re mainly just stronger lofted and have a bit of face deflection. And not all of them use standard length shafts. Especially in the mid and longer irons many of them have some shaft length creep. 

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16 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

I remember this video from a while  back and the fuss it caused here.  So good catch. 
 

 

 

I see it as basically showing you that speed loft and spin are the elements that dictate carry.  Which in my mind clearly shows you that ignoring the number stamped on the club and just knowing the carry is the name of the game.  The first two compared are 11 yards apart on carry.  And around 4 degrees apart on loft.    So it’s not a 7 iron to 7 iron comparison. It’s a 7 iron to 6.  Or a 7 to 8.  Depending on which side of the fence you are on.  

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4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I remember this video from a while  back and the fuss it caused here.  So good catch. 
 

 

 

I see it as basically showing you that speed loft and spin are the elements that dictate carry.  Which in my mind clearly shows you that ignoring the number stamped on the club and just knowing the carry is the name of the game.  The first two compared are 11 yards apart on carry.  And around 4 degrees apart on loft.    So it’s not a 7 iron to 7 iron comparison. It’s a 7 iron to 6.  Or a 7 to 8.  Depending on which side of the fence you are on.  

Yes.  I guarantee you that if they compare 2 iron models regardless of the year made with the same loft and length (forget about the number on the sole of the club) both will have the same carry distance when it on the sweet spot.

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"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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I do love the fact that the 'hard to hit' 3 & 4 irons that we were all replacing with hybrids when I first started playing are now much easier to hit due to the fact that they are now stamped with a 5 and 6. 

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1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

How else should I have read his use of "magic elixir" ?  It sure seemed like he was telling people how to think.

 

Shaft length is the other variable, and that really matters.  The shorter the shaft the easier the club is to hit.  You could just as easily say "my 37 inch club now goes 10 yards farther" than "my 7 goes 10 yards farther".  Different golfers will gap better with strong lofts, others won't.  Its not strictly bad.  Its a marketing gimmick but its not a fake one because they are not increasing the shaft length.  That's why his comment is both ignorant and condescending.  They didn't cross out a 6 and write a 7.  The club is still a half-inch shorter, and swing-weighted accordingly.  That matters.

Combo of shaft length and head weight make a difference in CHS. Shaft weight as well. So yes, there are a lot of factors here.  When I was 25 years old I could play blades with DG S300’s. Now, 30 years later,  I like a lighter, clubs that gives more help.  The new tech does give higher trajectory at the same loft.   Point is, more factors than just loft. 

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I don’t know why this subject works up so many on both sides , including myself.  In most ways I truly don’t care.  
 

I think it’s on part due to many of us spending money and not even seeing the placebo effects much less real gains anywhere.  And ultimately having the exact same “ aha” moment Faldo just had on the first couple strikes of the old 7 iron.  Then followed by the realization that the modern club brings.  He clearly didn’t love the strike of the newer club like he did the first 7 iron.  And all it gave him was the 10 yards that then older 6 would also give. And on top of it all it’s 100 %  Loft for loft.  This is exactly what I’ve seen soo many times myself.  I mean I played i500 for 8 or so months before I gave up and went back.  Scores were up and frustrations too.  For what ? 
 

having said that I fully realize that for some the method seems to help.  Although I have my doubts on that help being real vs just a mental placebo .  I’m happy to be wrong if some one shows some trackman data like this video that shows actual help in an apples to apples ( shaft and shaft length ) comparison.   

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6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t know why this subject works up so many on both sides , including myself.  In most ways I truly don’t care.  
 

I think it’s on part due to many of us spending money and not even seeing the placebo effects much less real gains anywhere.  And ultimately having the exact same “ aha” moment Faldo just had on the first couple strikes of the old 7 iron.  Then followed by the realization that the modern club brings.  He clearly didn’t love the strike of the newer club like he did the first 7 iron.  And all it gave him was the 10 yards that then older 6 would also give. And on top of it all it’s 100 %  Loft for loft.  This is exactly what I’ve seen soo many times myself.  I mean I played i500 for 8 or so months before I gave up and went back.  Scores were up and frustrations too.  For what ? 
 

having said that I fully realize that for some the method seems to help.  Although I have my doubts on that help being real vs just a mental placebo .  I’m happy to be wrong if some one shows some trackman data like this video that shows actual help in an apples to apples ( shaft and shaft length ) comparison.   

I'm coming from irons with lofts that are now considered 'traditional' lofts (24° 4 iron - 47° PW) and the difficulty I'm having is that loft increments are all over the place in order to arrive at an approximately 50° Gap wedge. Looking at Titleist for example the T100 are much the same as mine. But the T200 and 300 my 4 - PW lofts are basically 5 - GW. But the GW being 48° means I still need another 52° GW.

 

But looking at say Srixon. The ZX 7 lofts effectively skip a club or split the difference between the 7, 8, 9 iron and PW.

 

My clubs: 35, 39, 43, 47

 

Srixon ZX 7: 36, 41, 46

 

So one less iron allows me to carry an extra wedge but effectively I've just tossed out my 8 iron and bent my 9 iron 2° strong. Sort of a minimalist approach. LOL

 

The ZX 5 on the other hand the 5-9 is basically my 4-8 then they add an extra 1° for a 44° PW vs my 43° 9 iron. Then a 50° Gap wedge? Fagettaboudit!!! Therecis a 10-15 yard gap between my 43° and 47° club. A 44° club would potentially leave me a 30 yard gap to a 50° club. 

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17° Callaway X Hot 4 wood
20.5°& 23° Cleveland DST Launcher hybrids
Mizuno MP58 4-PW irons
Cleveland RTX 2 52°/10°, RTX 3 58°/9°
Ping Anser Sigma 2 putter

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I'm coming from irons with lofts that are now considered 'traditional' lofts (24° 4 iron - 47° PW) and the difficulty I'm having is that loft increments are all over the place in order to arrive at an approximately 50° Gap wedge. Looking at Titleist for example the T100 are much the same as mine. But the T200 and 300 my 4 - PW lofts are basically 5 - GW. But the GW being 48° means I still need another 52° GW.

 

But looking at say Srixon. The ZX 7 lofts effectively skip a club or split the difference between the 7, 8, 9 iron and PW.

 

My clubs: 35, 39, 43, 47

 

Srixon ZX 7: 36, 41, 46

 

So one less iron allows me to carry an extra wedge but effectively I've just tossed out my 8 iron and bent my 9 iron 2° strong. Sort of a minimalist approach. LOL

 

The ZX 5 on the other hand the 5-9 is basically my 4-8 then they add an extra 1° for a 44° PW vs my 43° 9 iron. Then a 50° Gap wedge? Fagettaboudit!!! Therecis a 10-15 yard gap between my 43° and 47° club. A 44° club would potentially leave me a 30 yard gap to a 50° club. 

 

 

 

I ran into this as well. The only thing I have come up with is to get the set and start bending. My current set of Z785's has the same loft as my 690 mb's.  It messes with the bounce of the iron a little but it is better than having 25 yard gaps in my scoring clubs because they decided to eliminate an iron. 

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