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Mizuno and Faldo show difference between blades and newer clubs...it’s the loft


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Just now, LeoLeo99 said:

 

There is nothing written in stone that defines a 5 iron.  Same with woods.  I was toying around with getting a 9 wood and looked at eBay.  My current woods go 10.5, 14.5, 18, 21°.  I last two are 917F and they don't have a club number; just the loft. I assumed that corresponded to 5w and 7w.  So, I look on eBay for a 24° wood.  The new ones are labeled 9w and the older ones are labeled 7w or even strong 7w.  


I played FG17 irons for years and hundreds of rounds.  They are two full clubs weaker than my G400 irons. I could just pick up an FG17 iron and tell what club it was just just by looking at its loft.  Every time I hit my G400 8 iron it looks like a 6 iron to me.  Same loft of 34°.  From that perspective, I could say many of folks today with blades are playing dishonest clubs.  The industry moves on.  It's still the score that counts.  Every now and then I'll play with a guy using blades who can't understand why he outdrives me but I'm hitting the same or less club into the green.  I'll explain about how my irons are stronger lofted but just get back deer in the headlights response.  

That’s why I said intellectually dishonest.  Not the person playing them. The company selling them.  
 

the only reason to have ever stamped 8 on your 34 degree club was to sell it in higher volume and more speed. Right ?  Surely that’s easy to agree on.  Marketing is the only reason.  they can make a 48-50 degree g400 pitching wedge.  But they didn’t.  They made it and called it a U wedge.   Or gap wedge in other speak.  
 

again.  I’m not down on the club itself.  At all.  I just don’t get the need to have guys play “4- Uwedge “ instead of “3-pw.  “ whne it’s the same thing. 
 

 

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Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

If you strike the ball like Nick Faldo... sure.   For everyone else it's a different story. 

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22 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Another reason HI's aren't dropping is that golf is a hard game. It's been around for 500 plus years and still nobody has figured out how to simplify the golf swing. Apparently sending men to the moon, inventing computers, performing heart transplants, etc., is easier. 

To an extent.   Yes.  But the other truth is that tricking folks into thinking they are hitting clubs longer than they are isn’t helping them.  Instead of a reasonable expectation , they now have one that mirrors pros.  As in “ i hit my 6 iron as far as tiger .... why can’t I break 85 ..... “?   Discouraged they buy more clubs , or quit.     If they knew the reality of how short they are they’d move off the back tee and focus on scoring instead of distances.  My opinion.  And scores would drop at least some.  Still a hard game. But the lies are making it worse.  

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20 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Odd how you and others prefer to demonize those who don't like what the OEMs are doing.  

 

Odd that you and others demonize the OEMs . 
 

it’s a matter of perspective.  Iron specs were never a thou shalt not written in stone.

Edited by NoTalentLefty

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Just now, NoTalentLefty said:

Odd that you and others demonize the OEMs . 

 

I don't see how there's anything odd about that.  they're the ones with the questionable marketing practices

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Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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36 minutes ago, nitram said:

What'll the next wedge that fits the gap between Gap Wedge and Pitching Wedge be called? If it's not already here it's coming soon.

Well take a look at the T400 with a 38° pitching wedge.  Then a 43° W1 and a 49° W2. 🙄

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1 minute ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I don't see how there's anything odd about that.  they're the ones with the questionable marketing practices

Or are you assuming questionable because it doesn’t fit your mindset ? 

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4 minutes ago, Choclab said:

LOL, it's never even occurred to me to care if someone is hitting a modern iron farther than I do my 1990s Ram blades.  Who cares?  Irons are for accuracy, not distance.

This is the real answer with gapping added.

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12 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Or are you assuming questionable because it doesn’t fit your mindset ? 

 

I didn't think it was a big stretch to call it questionable when the reason provided as the basis for the change turns out to be untrue.

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
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Why do players blades and cavity backs still have 'traditional' lofts with largely 4° loft increments?  Don't good players want the help of all this brilliant new technology? 

 

Particularly annoying in something like the Titleist range is the full club difference between the T100s and the T200 and T300. Let's say I wanted to combo the T100 in the short irons and T200 in the long irons. I'd be looking at say 5-7 (24-30) then 7-PW (34-46).

 

Two 7 irons! That'll really cause confusion when my playing partners ask me what club I hit:

 

"I hit 7 iron."

"Yeah but was it 7 iron 1 or 7 iron 2?" LOL

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6 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I didn't think it was a big stretch to call it questionable when the reason provided as the basis for the change turns out to be untrue.

 

Who decides it’s untrue? 

I took psychology in school . I can go all day. 

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3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
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1 minute ago, kiwihacker said:

Why do players blades and cavity backs still have 'traditional' lofts with largely 4° loft increments?  Don't good players want the help of all this brilliant new technology? 

 

Particularly annoying in something like the Titleist range is the full club difference between the T100s and the T200 and T300. Let's say I wanted to combo the T100 in the short irons and T200 in the long irons. I'd be looking at say 5-7 (24-30) then 7-PW (34-46).

 

Two 7 irons! That'll really cause confusion when my playing partners ask me what club I hit:

 

"I hit 7 iron."

"Yeah but was it 7 iron 1 or 7 iron 2?" LOL

That was my point earlier though. You might be correct with the combo set and you may not. Imo everyone gets too hung up on lofts matching rather than results matching. If you do as you posted you might find that your blended set overlaps OR has a hole with too wide a gap. And my contention is that not everyone would have the same result with that mixed set.

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Another question about jacked lofts. In my 'traditional' loft irons the long irons 4-6 (24, 27, 31) have a more rectangular shape with a squared off toe. Then the 35° 7 iron is sort of a transition to a more rounded, teardrop shaped 8 iron to Pitching Wedge (39-47). 

 

How does the design and shaping work with jacked lofts? Does a 31° 8 iron still have that more rounded look?

Cobra King F9  Driver 10.5° Atmos Blue 6 stiff
17° Callaway X Hot 4 wood
20.5°& 23° Cleveland DST Launcher hybrids
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Livin' proof that Lefties are not naturally talented.

Driver Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 set to 9.5
3 Wood Epic Flash set to 16 degrees
3-5 Hybrids Epic Flash 18 20 23 degrees
6 hybrid Big Bertha 26 degree 
7-AW Callaway Mavrik Irons 
50 degree GW Vokey SM7
56 degree SW Vokey SM7
Odyssey White Hot V-Line Fang

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36 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Who decides it’s untrue? 

I took psychology in school . I can go all day. 

 

The real question, is the delta bravo intentional or inherent?

 

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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft pending); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, DGS400; Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 58*, Dynamic S; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, DGS400; Maltby Design 60* mid sole, NV105 S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional or TaylorMade TP5

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1 hour ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Odd that you and others demonize the OEMs . 
 

it’s a matter of perspective.  Iron specs were never a thou shalt not written in stone.

No. But.  A pitching wedge is pretty universally known as 49-51 degrees for 60 years.   And then it went to 42 ish why?  
 

I agree there’s no rule.   But surely you can’t claim that the reason for the move up is anything but sales ? That’s where the gripe comes in is when folks try to define the loft creep by giving no actual explanation just.... “ because “.     Come on , it sells irons and wedges.  That’s why.  

 

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39 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

Another question about jacked lofts. In my 'traditional' loft irons the long irons 4-6 (24, 27, 31) have a more rectangular shape with a squared off toe. Then the 35° 7 iron is sort of a transition to a more rounded, teardrop shaped 8 iron to Pitching Wedge (39-47). 

 

How does the design and shaping work with jacked lofts? Does a 31° 8 iron still have that more rounded look?

That’s a great pojnt. One I’ve griped about at length to deaf ears.  Modern irons have short irons that look like a 6 iron.  Shape wise.  Why ?  I don’t know. I guess since  you put 5 vokeys behind them?   I’m serious.  This is something I can’t stand.  

Edited by bladehunter

 

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Well for me loft being stronger has helped my game as im a high ball hitter already specifically in the short irons where higher loft start to become just glancing scoopyness off the face. I personally love a lower ball flight i think high ball flights make the game much harder to judge and effected by wind. Also i thought less spin ment more accuracy as high spin on a shot thats stuck wrong is going to make the curve way worse?

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1 hour ago, NoTalentLefty said:

This is the real answer with gapping added.

Right. It is. But.  That’s what we’re saying.  What you’re missing is that it’s the guy with the 38 degree  pw who is worried about how far.  Nobody ever heard me crow about “ that smashed pitching wedge i just hit 20 yards farther than ever “.         You see. We’re saying the same thing.  It’s just that the ones I’ve seen worried about distance instead of gappping is the guy with the cannon irons.  
 

Show me the plus cap guy playing a blade here starting a thread about how far he’s smashing his 5 iron and I’ll go away.  But it’s never happens.  I can show you many with guys doing just that playing today’s  jacked irons.  That’s it in a nutshell.  These same guys talk like this on course.  And it spills back to these threads.  

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5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right. It is. But.  That’s what we’re saying.  What you’re missing is that it’s the guy with the 38 degree  pw who is worried about how far.  Nobody ever heard me crow about “ that smashed pitching wedge i just hit 20 yards farther than ever “.         You see. We’re saying the same thing.  It’s just that the ones I’ve seen worried about distance instead of gappping is the guy with the cannon irons.  
 

Show me the plus cap guy playing a blade here starting a thread about how far he’s smashing his 5 iron and I’ll go away.  But it’s never happens.  I can show you many with guys doing just that playing today’s  jacked irons.  That’s it in a nutshell.  These same guys talk like this on course.  And it spills back to these threads.  

That’s his problem. Not everyone who plays GI golf thinks that way . My Gis are stronger in loft yet my 7 iron is easier for me to hit than a 7 iron with more loft in a players club. Why? Technology. I can miss that bad boy on the toe and still carry water or bunkers that my poor a** game couldn’t with a players club. BTW players clubs look a lot nicer though. I agree with you on that. 

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Ok distance aside. Who truly believes that a 38° Pitching Wedge will be a useful short game tool around the green? 

 

Imagine the new golfer buying the T400 in say 5-PW and he reaches for his PW everytime he needs to make a chip or pitch shot around the green. Fine for a bump and run from the fringe. Everything else? Not so much. 

 

But I guess the salesman needs to convince him to also buy W1, W2 and W3. Four freaking wedges just to get to a 55° sand wedge! 

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14 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

That’s his problem. Not everyone who plays GI golf thinks that way . My Gis are stronger in loft yet my 7 iron is easier for me to hit than a 7 iron with more loft in a players club. Why? Technology. I can miss that bad boy on the toe and still carry water or bunkers that my poor a** game couldn’t with a players club. BTW players clubs look a lot nicer though. I agree with you on that. 

Wel that’s progress.  
 

nobdoy here is advocating against that iron.  Nobody.  We’re just saying that it’s name likely should be 6.   This would curb the guy we’re describing.  
 

now I’ll go on and concede that for the most part we ignore this guy we’re describing.  Because score is what matters.  
 

but think about it this way.  If you played with a guy for a year.  And for a year he hit his 45 degree “Lob Wedge”  145 yards and announced it everytime.  Eventually you’d want to call Him out on it.  Right ?  That’s the most boiled down version there is.  

Edited by bladehunter
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I have got to be honest Bladehunter I have never met 'that guy' in real life. When I mention strong lofts in new irons to my playing buddies they just look blankly at me like I'm speaking another language. Only golf obsessives like ourselves that occupy forums like WRX seem to know/care about this stuff. LOL

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4 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Exactly.  So why do you guys care so much what number is there if it doesn't matter?

I don’t care what number anyone has on their clubs. I just think people should be aware of the loft games being played by OEMs. 
 

I play with some accomplished players. My partner in league has won the club championship the past two seasons. He plays a full Titleist bag with 714 CB/MB combos and Vokey wedges a Cameron putter and 913 woods. Very much a players bag. But he really doesn’t know much about equipment at all. A buddy of his got out of golf a couple years ago and offered him the whole bag for $750 and he took it. 
 

I also play golf with some old buddies that play a handful of times a year. When they do buy clubs they buy the biggest chunkiest irons they can find. They don’t know anything about equipment, just that these are supposed to help them score better.
 

But they don’t have a clue that the 5 and 6 irons in these sets might be the exact same loft of the 3 and 4 irons they abandoned for hybrids or 7 woods ages ago. And that’s what bugs me. How many rounds will the 6-8 rounds a year golfer struggle and not have fun before they figure it out? Not to mention figuring out the rest of the gaps in the set. 

 

Again, I could not care less what clubs anyone uses. I think that because a lot of us here know a lot about equipment we tend to think other golfers know a lot about equipment.
 

As an example there are 44 guys in my Wednesday men’s league and there are maybe 2 other than me that pay much attention to the equipment side and they’re probably about 15% as into it as I am. There’s maybe 3-4 that have had some sort of half assed fitting at some point.
 

The rest of these guys are just relying on marketing materials or whatever the pro shop carries to make their purchasing decisions. I’m not convinced that is in their best interests. 

Edited by GBBM
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6 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Wow all this time I just thought the number on the iron was denoting it's place within a given set's loft progression, but I guess numbering irons based on some unwritten rules makes sense too.

It's funny you say that because my playing buddies still think a 5 iron is a 5 iron and a 7 iron is a 7 iron  regardless of make and model. One of my playing buddies will often ask what I hit as a reference for what he should hit. I did explain to him once that his 4-PW is almost identical to my 3-9 iron (I don't carry the 3 iron) but he just looked at me with a blank, almost quizzical look. It didn't seem to register with him. 

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17° Callaway X Hot 4 wood
20.5°& 23° Cleveland DST Launcher hybrids
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9 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

Wow all this time I just thought the number on the iron was denoting it's place within a given set's loft progression, but I guess numbering irons based on some unwritten rules makes sense too.

It’s true . Unwritten. The Ben hogan strengthen his own along the way. 

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8 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

It's funny you say that because my playing buddies still think a 5 iron is a 5 iron and a 7 iron is a 7 iron  regardless of make and model. One of my playing buddies will often ask what I hit as a reference for what he should hit. I did explain to him once that his 4-PW is almost identical to my 3-9 iron (I don't carry the 3 iron) but he just looked at me with a blank, almost quizzical look. It didn't seem to register with him. 


Have been in this exact same situation numerous times 

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15 minutes ago, kiwihacker said:

It's funny you say that because my playing buddies still think a 5 iron is a 5 iron and a 7 iron is a 7 iron  regardless of make and model. One of my playing buddies will often ask what I hit as a reference for what he should hit. I did explain to him once that his 4-PW is almost identical to my 3-9 iron (I don't carry the 3 iron) but he just looked at me with a blank, almost quizzical look. It didn't seem to register with him. 

And he would be correct. A 5 iron is a 5 iron, in so much as it's the club between the 4 & 6 in his set.  Any other definition is up for debate, as has been chronicled in numerous threads on this site.

 

It's also correct to say that his 5 iron is not the same as your 5 iron.

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

To an extent.   Yes.  But the other truth is that tricking folks into thinking they are hitting clubs longer than they are isn’t helping them.  Instead of a reasonable expectation , they now have one that mirrors pros.  As in “ i hit my 6 iron as far as tiger .... why can’t I break 85 ..... “?   Discouraged they buy more clubs , or quit.     If they knew the reality of how short they are they’d move off the back tee and focus on scoring instead of distances.  My opinion.  And scores would drop at least some.  Still a hard game. But the lies are making it worse.  

I agree. We seem to be obsessed with distance, whether it's on this forum, or listening to the oohs and aahs of golf announcers, etc. Ultimately the game is about scoring, but in our obsessive pursuit of distance we seemed to have forgotten that. If many golfers moved up, they would automatically get more distance, i.e., hitting irons into greens instead of woods or hybrids. But, in addition to chasing distance a lot of ego is involved too, lol.

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