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Mizuno and Faldo show difference between blades and newer clubs...it’s the loft


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6 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

And he would be correct. A 5 iron is a 5 iron, in so much as it's the club between the 4 & 6 in his set.  Any other definition is up for debate, as has been chronicled in numerous threads on this site.

 

It's also correct to say that his 5 iron is not the same as your 5 iron.

In his mind it's exactly the same. 

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Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

If you strike the ball like Nick Faldo... sure.   For everyone else it's a different story. 

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Played with a guy 2 weeks in a row, he shoots in the 70's, is pretty good. On par 3 he always asked what I'm hitting. On a 175 hole for me it's a #6i, him an #8i. He's playing M6, I'm playing Titleist 681. But with Drivers in hand, we are near same. This video makes a decent attempt to break down difference. Bottom line on good passes, loft for loft a GI club launches 2* higher and spins 10% less than a MB. This rings true with what I've experienced. How that washes with folks vary but it's not a dramatic difference, no more than ball choice and probably less than shaft pick.

 

 

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The distance question is really a strange one. Sure we all want more distance off the tee with driver but isn't just about every other club in the bag designed to hit a certain distance i.e. the distance to your target? 

 

I'm not the longest hitter but I'm perfectly happy with how far I hit my 'traditional' lofted irons. I seem to be similar to most other golfers I play with. Occasionally I'll play with an older guy who is hitting say 5 iron where I'm hitting 7 iron or I play with a really big hitter who is hitting a 6 iron into par fives where I'm laying up with a hybrid! LOL 

 

If I was to switch to say the new Mavrik irons it wouldn't matter to me that I'm now hitting a 27° 7 iron but I do wonder how the gapping would work at the short end of the bag. 

 

I guess I'd just play 6-AW (24-46) and I'd still need a GW. 

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1 hour ago, wedgegame said:

Wow all this time I just thought the number on the iron was denoting it's place within a given set's loft progression, but I guess numbering irons based on some unwritten rules makes sense too.

As respectfully as I can , isnt that saying that all 5 irons are 5 irons ?   As in the same ?  Can you put all sets behind the same 4 hybrid and have it gap correctly ? 
 

cant be both.  It’s either a 5 iron or it’s a xyz lofted club.  Which is why loft stamps make more sense.  
 

I have to say. It’s this type sarcastic response on irons that drives the irritation seen here.  Do you tell people that the new xyz iron set gained you yards ?  Do you also mention how many wedges you had to add or the large gap at the back end that you left ?  
 

while I see your logic in simplest form.  The irons are labeled not just as a stair step set to themselves. But as a stair step set inside the whole set.  When the pw leaves two steps out to the sand wedge. It’s really not a pw.   Not if you consider the whole bag.  

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45 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

As respectfully as I can , isnt that saying that all 5 irons are 5 irons ?   As in the same ?  Can you put all sets behind the same 4 hybrid and have it gap correctly ? 
 

cant be both.  It’s either a 5 iron or it’s a xyz lofted club.  Which is why loft stamps make more sense.  
 

I have to say. It’s this type sarcastic response on irons that drives the irritation seen here.  Do you tell people that the new xyz iron set gained you yards ?  Do you also mention how many wedges you had to add or the large gap at the back end that you left ?  
 

while I see your logic in simplest form.  The irons are labeled not just as a stair step set to themselves. But as a stair step set inside the whole set.  When the pw leaves two steps out to the sand wedge. It’s really not a pw.   Not if you consider the whole bag.  

 

You can have an orange car and a blue car.

 

You can have a 21.5* Mavrik 5 iron and a 26* j40 5 iron.  What else would you call the stick with the 5 on it that goes a little further than the 4 and a little less than the 6?

 

My buddy plays Mavriks.  He isn't as good a cap but he hits his iron, number for number, way further than I hit my Bridgestones.

 

It boggles my mind how insecure I'd have to be to care that he thinks he hits it further than me.

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1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

You can have an orange car and a blue car.

 

You can have a 21.5* Mavrik 5 iron and a 26* j40 5 iron.  What else would you call the stick with the 5 on it that goes a little further than the 4 and a little less than the 6?

 

My buddy plays Mavriks.  He isn't as good a cap but he hits his iron, number for number, way further than I hit my Bridgestones.

 

It boggles my mind how insecure I'd have to be to care that he thinks he hits it further than me.

Lol.  You almost had it.  Almost.  
( I kid I kid ) 

 

but seriously ... you’re seeing the conflict.  But not the cause.  Think about this logically.....

 

if it were me who was worried about hitting my irons farther , wouldn’t it be me who bought the jacked irons ?  
 

In this thread you have a guy who posted a video.  Then you have two sides commenting.  One side agreeing with the videos obvious conclusions.  And another side trying to say “ no .....” and then defending iron creep as “ no big deal “ and “ I can’t believe you guys are concerned with how much farther we hit it “.  
 

if you hadn’t commented to try to defend loft creep and rebuke the video , then it would only be 1 page long and consist of folks saying “ yep that’s what I’ve seen in my testing too “.  
 

please take the time to show me how it’s me worrying about distance .  And I’ll gladly reiterate that it’s not distance that’s the worry. It’s the irritation that some BELIEVE that they are hitting it farther when in reality they are simply hitting it the same with a different label club.  
 

 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

It’s the irritation that some BELIEVE that they are hitting it farther when in reality they are simply hitting it the same with a different label club

See that's a YOU problem, not a problem for the guy hitting it or the OEMs. 

 

Labeling a club with a number in relation to it's loft in it's respective set is way more sensible than trying to label them based on loft when there is no universally accepted spec defining what loft each iron number should represent.

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

if it were me who was worried about hitting my irons farther , wouldn’t it be me who bought the jacked irons ?  
 

 

You're not worried about hitting it farther.  You have a bizarre fascination with what other people choose to play golf with.

 

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

It’s the irritation that some BELIEVE that they are hitting it farther when in reality they are simply hitting it the same with a different label club.  

 

It is really weird that you get irritated by some guy having fun thinking he hits a 7 a long way when you think it should have a 5 or a 6 painted on the bottom.  What other people do shouldn't irritate you. It doesn't irritate me.  What irritates me is when I play poorly.  There is very little I care less about then what another player is hitting.

 

Its like Jack said.  Doesn't matter what I'm hitting because you have no idea how hard I'm going to hit it.  So you can argue with Mr. Nicklaus and think loft to number matters, or you can try to shoot low scores with whatever fits you the best.

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7 hours ago, NoTalentLefty said:

Odd that you and others demonize the OEMs . 
 

it’s a matter of perspective.  Iron specs were never a thou shalt not written in stone.

When you realise that the OEMs spend a tenth on R&D of what they spend on marketing you realise what a silly herd of sheep everyone has become...they’re pulling the wool over your eyes and you’ve been taken in.

 

You only need at most 10 clubs and they should last until they wear out...nothing changes year-on-year yet the sheep have to have the latest and greatest. The OEMs tell them that they’re missing out on a couple of yards here and there and because so-and-so has just kitted himself out with the new Epic- Speed-Twist-My-Face-Off irons, you have to at least match him to compete or you’re toast.

 

I used to play with a guy with a 15 year old box set of clubs who was a steady 8-9 handicap. Always competed in club competitions and was always there or about. People used to ask him why he didn’t get himself kitted out with new gear every so often. He always replied that with the money he’d saved by not buying new gear every year, he’d bought a villa in Spain and lived a life of luxury. I asked him once about his clubs in Spain...exactly the same set was his reply and he won plenty of comps out there too.

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9 minutes ago, mahonie said:

When you realise that the OEMs spend a tenth on R&D of what they spend on marketing you realise what a silly herd of sheep everyone has become...they’re pulling the wool over your eyes and you’ve been taken in.

 

You only need at most 10 clubs and they should last until they wear out...nothing changes year-on-year yet the sheep have to have the latest and greatest. The OEMs tell them that they’re missing out on a couple of yards here and there and because so-and-so has just kitted himself out with the new Epic- Speed-Twist-My-Face-Off irons, you have to at least match him to compete or you’re toast.

 

I used to play with a guy with a 15 year old box set of clubs who was a steady 8-9 handicap. Always competed in club competitions and was always there or about. People used to ask him why he didn’t get himself kitted out with new gear every so often. He always replied that with the money he’d saved by not buying new gear every year, he’d bought a villa in Spain and lived a life of luxury. I asked him once about his clubs in Spain...exactly the same set was his reply and he won plenty of comps out there too.

Played with a cheap set of Hippo irons when I first began playing. Gave them to my father in law hoping he'd get hooked on the game too and we could play golf while the wife and mother in law go shopping.(didn't work we get dragged along shopping). Anyway a couple of year ago I played with those clubs. Scored just the same as normal and on one long par 3 I pured the 4 iron and it felt as sweet as any forged club/ blade I've ever hit. So I think your buddy was on to something. 😁

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It doesn't matter if you are happy with your own game. 2 quick stories. After Hogan retired he would sometimes play in the money games at Shady Oaks. Hogan could not stand anyone looking in his bag to see what he hit. So there was an out of town guest playing this morning in Hogans 4 some.  He was looking in Hogans bag all day. Finally they both hit a drive pretty close to each other. Hogan takes his 8 iron to about 15 feet. Guy says 8 huh. Hogan tells the caddie give me a ball and the 7 hits it inside the 8 then proceeds to do the same with a 6 iron.  Guys jaw drops and Hogan walks away.

Personal story, playing a small money match. I'm playing some "traditional" lofted irons. Par 3 I hit a 6 guy says what u hit? A 6 he grabs his 6 and flys the green. Got pissed and accused me of playing him.  Lifted my club up that I was half leaning on and showed him the number. He didn't say a word.

MOTTO: PLAY YOUR OWN GAME.

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7 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

You're not worried about hitting it farther.  You have a bizarre fascination with what other people choose to play golf with.

 

 

It is really weird that you get irritated by some guy having fun thinking he hits a 7 a long way when you think it should have a 5 or a 6 painted on the bottom.  What other people do shouldn't irritate you. It doesn't irritate me.  What irritates me is when I play poorly.  There is very little I care less about then what another player is hitting.

 

Its like Jack said.  Doesn't matter what I'm hitting because you have no idea how hard I'm going to hit it.  So you can argue with Mr. Nicklaus and think loft to number matters, or you can try to shoot low scores with whatever fits you the best.

Lol.   Ok.   
 

 

The irritant usually comes here.  I’m not irritated on course.  I couldn’t possibly care less.  It’s the  conversation after or before when the oblivious question my choices  that is the irritant.  
 

which is why I commented on this video.  I’ve literally done the exact same test.  A couple times with different brands. And each time come to the same conclusion.  To paraphrase Faldo .... “ make me up a retro set of these guys “.    
 

which is why the topic interests me.  That soo many can see it so differently.  Or more accurately not see what’s being sold to them.  

 

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23 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Lol.   Ok.   
 

 

The irritant usually comes here.  I’m not irritated on course.  I couldn’t possibly care less.  It’s the  conversation after or before when the oblivious question my choices  that is the irritant.  
 

which is why I commented on this video.  I’ve literally done the exact same test.  A couple times with different brands. And each time come to the same conclusion.  To paraphrase Faldo .... “ make me up a retro set of these guys “.    
 

which is why the topic interests me.  That soo many can see it so differently.  Or more accurately not see what’s being sold to them.  

 

Its not weird to be interested, and its not weird to be opinionated about golf equipment.  I think you are wrong in this case, but its not an odd stance.

 

Its weird to get irritated because other golfers think they hit it further than they actually do, which is what you said.  So, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to go by here except your posts and your post wasn't ambiguous about the source of your annoyance.  You plainly said you don't like it when other people think they hit a 7 iron 180 when you think it should be called a 6 iron.  That's really weird.

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1 hour ago, wedgegame said:

See that's a YOU problem, not a problem for the guy hitting it or the OEMs. 

 

Labeling a club with a number in relation to it's loft in it's respective set is way more sensible than trying to label them based on loft when there is no universally accepted spec defining what loft each iron number should represent.

Really ?  Loft measurement isn’t a universally accepted spec ?  I’m not saying print 3 iron 21 degrees.  I’m saying print 21 degrees on the long iron and so on.  Leave the numbers off.  
 

the reason this doesn’t happen is it squashes  the lie of distance gained.  
 

what you’re saying is that the oems and their customers have no problem with the lie , so it’s not a lie.  Right ?   That just makes them co-conspirators really.  lol.  But no.... it’s all in my head right ?  People aren’t buying 5 wedges behind Their iron sets now are they ? 
 


 

 

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Just now, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Its not weird to be interested, and its not weird to be opinionated about golf equipment.  I think you are wrong in this case, but its not an odd stance.

 

Its weird to get irritated because other golfers think they hit it further than they actually do, which is what you said.  So, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to go by here except your posts but your post wasn't ambiguous about the source of your annoyance.  You plainly said you don't like it when other people think they hit a 7 iron 180 when you think it should be called a 6 iron.  That's really weird.

I’m fine with being a weirdo.  No problem.  
 

it’s just the practical side of me I guess.  The one that prefers to deal in fact over fiction .  

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In racing, you apply some real effort at not revealing some of your tricks and 'kung fu' at the track. You know your competitors are too. This is both fun to do, and can be frustrating too, depending on what side of the coin you are on(woke up and smelled the roses). Its a wonderful side bar to racing, just like all these wonderful side bars in golf are. 

All the lead tape, home grinds and other mods that can be found on clubs, putter to driver, really takes it all to another level...wait, nobody does that anymore right?

I thought I heard that the historical reason for numbers on clubs, was, it made it easier to bark or gesture to your caddie which bloody club you wanted. ;-)

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Really ?  Loft measurement isn’t a universally accepted spec ?  I’m not saying print 3 iron 21 degrees.  I’m saying print 21 degrees on the long iron and so on.  Leave the numbers off.  

You're not understanding what I said. What is the universally accepted loft measurement for a 5 iron?  One everyone agrees on? Go on I'll wait.

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

what you’re saying is that the oems and their customers have no problem with the lie , so it’s not a lie.  Right ?   That just makes them co-conspirators really.  lol.  But no.... it’s all in my head right ?  People aren’t buying 5 wedges behind Their iron sets now are they ? 

They aren't lying, they just don't label their clubs in a way that's acceptable to you. Once again it's a you problem.

 

There is plenty of marketing BS in golf equipment, but loft jacking, loft creep, etc isn't one them. You act like they don't post spec sheets with all their clubs. If someone is super "loft sensitive" they can absolutely find all the info about what they are buying right there out in the open.

 

If someone bends their 9 iron outside of the bladehunter universal 9 iron loft spec™ are they lying to the world everytime they hit it?

 

And in regards to wedges, if you're all about lofts why does it matter if it's called a gap wedge or a pitching wedge? Isn't the loft the only thing that matters? Why care where the irons stop and the wedges begin?

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43 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

You're not understanding what I said. What is the universally accepted loft measurement for a 5 iron?  One everyone agrees on? Go on I'll wait.

I think it’s you not understanding what I said.  
 

I understand that a “ 5 iron “ isn’t a unit of measurement per say. But.  It is an understood step in a set of golf clubs. Generally coming after a LW Sw pw 9,8,7,6 irons. Right ?    But in this case we may now have a LW SW GW1 GW2 PW , 9,8,7,6.     Or worse.  The first  part was universally accepted until recently.  
 

I simply said. Print lofts INSTEAD of iron numbers.  Then it’s a clear picture.  

 

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34 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

They aren't lying, they just don't label their clubs in a way that's acceptable to you. Once again it's a you problem.

 

There is plenty of marketing BS in golf equipment, but loft jacking, loft creep, etc isn't one them. You act like they don't post spec sheets with all their clubs. If someone is super "loft sensitive" they can absolutely find all the info about what they are buying right there out in the open.

 

If someone bends their 9 iron outside of the bladehunter universal 9 iron loft spec™ are they lying to the world everytime they hit it?

 

And in regards to wedges, if you're all about lofts why does it matter if it's called a gap wedge or a pitching wedge? Isn't the loft the only thing that matters? Why care where the irons stop and the wedges begin?

You’re giving the buying public wayyy too much credit.   Spec sheets ?  I’d wager asking 100 random people on a course what loft their pw is results in 99 wrong answers.  As long as they aren’t playing a wedge with it printed on it.   
 

but hey. It’s your world right ?  Why don’t we carry 10 vokeys  and a 2 iron and be done with her ?  
 

Thanks for successfully proving my point though.  This ^ is the conversation I’ve had anytime it’s brought up.  The pseudo denial of loft  creep being real , coupled with the  “ it’s not marketing bs anyway   .... we really do hit it farther “ 🤦‍♂️Face palm is all I have for that.  

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Since I switched from more traditionally lofted irons (Adams CB1s) to M2s and now Apex 19s, if people ask what I hit on a par three I'll usually say "6, but actually, it's a 4.5 iron." It turns the numbers on the bottom of an iron from a solid reference point to iffy. It's not a big deal at the end of the day - this is golf, and golf is fun - but it's enough to make me slightly annoyed and complain a bit and make bad jokes. 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I think it’s you not understanding what I said.  
 

I understand that a “ 5 iron “ isn’t a unit of measurement per say. But.  It is an understood step in a set of golf clubs. Generally coming after a LW Sw pw 9,8,7,6 irons. Right ?    But in this case we may now have a LW SW GW1 GW2 PW , 9,8,7,6.     Or worse.  The first  part was universally accepted until recently.  
 

I simply said. Print lofts INSTEAD of iron numbers.  Then it’s a clear picture.  

Ill continue to try and clarify your point. If you walk into a store and hit two 5 irons, one goes 10 yards farther, without digging deeper we assume the one that goes further is better. Now do the same thing but this time lofts are printed. 24 on one and 27 on the other. Safe to say the extra distance would make sense to most and realize the 27 isnt any worse than the 24. No one is saying an iron has to be “X” amount of loft. But print the loft so people can make that assessment for themselves. But its in the interest of sales to NOT let consumers know upfront, unless the consumer asks, or is somewhat educated about equipment. Then you get a faction of golfers who knowingly live in fantasy land, and dont mind living the lie. So be it. 

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8 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Ill continue to try and clarify your point. If you walk into a store and hit two 5 irons, one goes 10 yards farther, without digging deeper we assume the one that goes further is better. Now do the same thing but this time lofts are printed. 24 on one and 27 on the other. Safe to say the extra distance would make sense to most and realize the 27 isnt any worse than the 24. No one is saying an iron has to be “X” amount of loft. But print the loft so people can make that assessment for themselves. But its in the interest of sales to NOT let consumers know upfront, unless the consumer asks, or is somewhat educated about equipment. Then you get a faction of golfers who knowingly live in fantasy land, and dont mind living the lie. So be it. 

But it's not lying as it is being implied here.

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

You’re giving the buying public wayyy too much credit.   Spec sheets ?  I’d wager asking 100 random people on a course what loft their pw is results in 99 wrong answers

Then why print the lofts at all? If people don't know the lofts of their clubs then its more useful for them to know 5 goes farther than 9.

 

The only reason I can think of of for people taking exception to numbering irons in relation to the set they are a part of is ego. You simply cannot abide someone thinking they hit their jacked 5 iron farther than you hit your standard 5 iron.  After all, you said it yourself that it irritates you.

 

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

. This ^ is the conversation I’ve had anytime it’s brought up.  The pseudo denial of loft  creep being real , coupled with the  “ it’s not marketing bs anyway   .... we really do hit it farther “ 🤦‍♂️Face palm is all I have for that.  

I never once denied loft creep, I just said labeling irons in relation to the other irons in the set isn't a problem, and in fact without a standard it makes the most logical sense.

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5 hours ago, wedgegame said:

But it's not lying as it is being implied here.

Do you prefer a “purposeful veiled  truth “ ... I mean we’re onto semantics of the highest order now.  

 

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5 hours ago, wedgegame said:

Then why print the lofts at all? If people don't know the lofts of their clubs then its more useful for them to know 5 goes farther than 9.

 

The only reason I can think of of for people taking exception to numbering irons in relation to the set they are a part of is ego. You simply cannot abide someone thinking they hit their jacked 5 iron farther than you hit your standard 5 iron.  After all, you said it yourself that it irritates you.

 

I never once denied loft creep, I just said labeling irons in relation to the other irons in the set isn't a problem, and in fact without a standard it makes the most logical sense.

The reason to list lofts would  be education.  So that person understands why one 5 iron flies farther than the other in the fitting etc.  

 

 

again.  It’s the persons ignorance and their announcements of it that is irritating.  Not the club itself.  
 

take the original video here.  If joe blow goes for a fitting. Is handed each of those irons. He will assume that the one that flies the farthest and keeps the most reasonable dispersion is the clear win.  Giving no consideration to loft as Faldo has done.  He made the logical conclusion right away “ well it flies 160 ... but then again it should being 5 degrees stronger “.  
 

now it’s possible the longer iron also gives the best dispersion.  But for plenty it won’t. Yet they’ll buy the distance lie anyway.  

 

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8 hours ago, wedgegame said:

They aren't lying, they just don't label their clubs in a way that's acceptable to you. Once again it's a you problem.

 

There is plenty of marketing BS in golf equipment, but loft jacking, loft creep, etc isn't one them. You act like they don't post spec sheets with all their clubs. If someone is super "loft sensitive" they can absolutely find all the info about what they are buying right there out in the open.

 

If someone bends their 9 iron outside of the bladehunter universal 9 iron loft spec™ are they lying to the world everytime they hit it?

 

And in regards to wedges, if you're all about lofts why does it matter if it's called a gap wedge or a pitching wedge? Isn't the loft the only thing that matters? Why care where the irons stop and the wedges begin?

Here’s the post where it sounds to me like you’re denying loft creep exists.   Maybe you’re just saying it’s not marketing BS ? 
 

but I must ask.  If it’s not artificial distance design by marketing firms to sell clubs.  Then why ?  What’s the reason for the 38 -42 degree “ pitching wedge “? 

 

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8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Here’s the post where it sounds to me like you’re denying loft creep exists.   Maybe you’re just saying it’s not marketing BS ? 
 

but I must ask.  If it’s not artificial distance design by marketing firms to sell clubs.  Then why ?  What’s the reason for the 38 -42 degree “ pitching wedge “? 

They will tell you TECHNOLOGY, but the real answer is it flies farther than the competitor...even if that competitor is your current set of the same brand of clubs....which equals sales. There is literally NO other reason. The technology argument has been debunked time and time again.

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