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Mizuno and Faldo show difference between blades and newer clubs...it’s the loft


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3 hours ago, bubbagump said:

 

I feel that's worse.   

 

Need is subjective, be it cars/clubs/houses etc.  Getting bent out of shape because companies offer certain product that may not appeal to you but does to others, seems a total irrational waste of energy to me, but do you.  If it helps an older fellow stay on the course more years, or makes a rando beat his chest for hitting his pw 160 and all in between, good for them.   

First, im not getting “bent out of shape”.  Just giving my opinion. Second, the “need” comparison you made is totally out of context. Im saying people will argue on here that the strong lofts are “needed” to bring the high launch down because of better technology. Thats the issue i have because its just a flat lie. Like i have said many times and will say again, play whatever you want, i have no issues. Now personally, I do find it funny when people defend, or embrace the deceit, much like i giggle when a dude who is 5’4” hop out of a big lifted monster truck... 🤷‍♂️ But to each his own.

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Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

If you strike the ball like Nick Faldo... sure.   For everyone else it's a different story. 

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4 hours ago, mahonie said:

But when that PW is the same loft as your old 8-iron you haven’t gained anything.

 

Most players would be better advised to get a matched set of lofts and play them for at least 5 years (I think you’ve had your irons for a while).

 

Yeah, about five years.  I've tried a lot of other irons and the j40 DPC is, in my opinion, one of the best ever made.  But that is just my opinion and what works for my game.

 

let me ask you this, if the club you are referencing here is still 35.75" yet just stronger lofted with a 9 on it have you still not gained anything?

 

the part of this I don't totally understand (aside from bladehunter not liking fun, j/k) is that you guys say that the relationship of the number to the loft is sacrosanct, but you don't seem to consider anything else sacrosanct to a particular number (like shaft length, or weight) and those can also make you hit it shorter or farther.  So if I built a 37" 48* PW that went 10 yards farther, you're good, but a 35.75" 43* PW is a crime against golf.  I don't get why loft is so important compared to the other characteristics of a club. 

 

Are you just as outraged that the average shaft weight has decreased from 122 grams in 2011 to 90 grams in 2020?  Why am I not reading threads about how the distance gains from 60 gram graphite iron shafts are "fake" ?

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1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

First, im not getting “bent out of shape”.  Just giving my opinion. Second, the “need” comparison you made is totally out of context. Im saying people will argue on here that the strong lofts are “needed” to bring the high launch down because of better technology. Thats the issue i have because its just a flat lie. Like i have said many times and will say again, play whatever you want, i have no issues. Now personally, I do find it funny when people defend, or embrace the deceit, much like i giggle when a dude who is 5’4” hop out of a big lifted monster truck... 🤷‍♂️ But to each his own.

 

Do you consider the drop in stock shaft weight by 40 grams to be "deceit" as well?  Or do you think maybe the OEMs are actually better at this after 30 more years of data?  Its not just loft man.  Everything is different than 2008.

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36 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Do you consider the drop in stock shaft weight by 40 grams to be "deceit" as well?  Or do you think maybe the OEMs are actually better at this after 30 more years of data?  Its not just loft man.  Everything is different than 2008.

Well considering shafts state their weight on the shaft, no.

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59 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Yeah, about five years.  I've tried a lot of other irons and the j40 DPC is, in my opinion, one of the best ever made.  But that is just my opinion and what works for my game.

 

let me ask you this, if the club you are referencing here is still 35.75" yet just stronger lofted with a 9 on it have you still not gained anything?

 

the part of this I don't totally understand (aside from bladehunter not liking fun, j/k) is that you guys say that the relationship of the number to the loft is sacrosanct, but you don't seem to consider anything else sacrosanct to a particular number (like shaft length, or weight) and those can also make you hit it shorter or farther.  So if I built a 37" 48* PW that went 10 yards farther, you're good, but a 35.75" 43* PW is a crime against golf.  I don't get why loft is so important compared to the other characteristics of a club. 

 

Are you just as outraged that the average shaft weight has decreased from 122 grams in 2011 to 90 grams in 2020?  Why am I not reading threads about how the distance gains from 60 gram graphite iron shafts are "fake" ?

If one purposely added length solely for purposes of gaining distance (and not a fitting need), then, yes thats an issue with me too. Not so much with reduced shaft weight as long as it doesnt effect dispersion. Both these examples ACTUALLY give you increased distance, where as loft creep is just perceived distance and not actual. The driver is the exception. Get as much as you can out of it. If you gain a ton of “distance”  with your irons but none with the driver, then you will crowd your gaps on the top end, and have to drop a long iron and add a wedge, which in turn all that was really done was a labeling shuffle. Just for giggles id like someone to make me a set backwards. Give me a 24 degree 0 iron, a 27 degree 1 iron, 31 degree 2 iron, etc. see how silly it is?

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1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

If one purposely added length solely for purposes of gaining distance (and not a fitting need), then, yes thats an issue with me too. Not so much with reduced shaft weight as long as it doesnt effect dispersion. Both these examples ACTUALLY give you increased distance, where as loft creep is just perceived distance and not actual. The driver is the exception. Get as much as you can out of it. If you gain a ton of “distance”  with your irons but none with the driver, then you will crowd your gaps on the top end, and have to drop a long iron and add a wedge, which in turn all that was really done was a labeling shuffle. Just for giggles id like someone to make me a set backwards. Give me a 24 degree 0 iron, a 27 degree 1 iron, 31 degree 2 iron, etc. see how silly it is?

 

OK, so I understand, here is y'alls contention...

 

Our golfer - a guy who loves the game but has reduced swing speed due to age.  On same swing...

 

Baseline club - PW stamped on bottom, 35.75", 46*, 120 gram dynamic gold shaft, normal head.  Similar to my j40.

 

"fake" distance gains - PW stamped on bottom, 35.75", 42*, 120 gram dynamic gold shaft, normal head. (stronger loft, all else the same)

 

"actual" distance gains - PW stamped on bottom, 36.25", 46*, 50 gram senior flex shaft, tungsten weight in bottom of head. (longer shaft, weight distributed for launch, much lighter shaft BUT the traditional loft)

 

Whatever you and bladehunter and smoking to think those are two different ways of gaining more distance, I want some of it.

Edited by pinestreetgolf
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36 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

OK, so I understand, here is y'alls contention...

 

Our golfer - a guy who loves the game but has reduced swing speed due to age.  On same swing...

 

Baseline club - PW stamped on bottom, 35.75", 46*, 120 gram dynamic gold shaft, normal head.  Similar to my j40.

 

"fake" distance gains - PW stamped on bottom, 35.75", 42*, 120 gram dynamic gold shaft, normal head. (stronger loft, all else the same)

 

"actual" distance gains - PW stamped on bottom, 36.25", 46*, 50 gram senior flex shaft, tungsten weight in bottom of head. (longer shaft, weight distributed for launch, much lighter shaft BUT the traditional loft)

 

Whatever you and bladehunter and smoking to think those are two different ways of gaining more distance, I want some of it.

Because example 2 actually changed something other than a label.  Total weight, and length. example 1 just changed the label on the bottom. I must be smokin logic... 🤪

 

how about this. I have a blank iron head. You hit it 175. You are telling me that if i stamped “7” on it rather than “5”, did you actually gain distance? You hit it the same no matter the label. That is not a distance gain. Its a perceived gain, but not actual. If i gave you the same blank head and put a lightweight long shaft in it and another in a heavy short shaft, you would see a real distance gain in the first setup. I think you know this... which makes these threads even more so difficult for me. Peace ✌️ 

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9 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Yeah, about five years.  I've tried a lot of other irons and the j40 DPC is, in my opinion, one of the best ever made.  But that is just my opinion and what works for my game.

 

let me ask you this, if the club you are referencing here is still 35.75" yet just stronger lofted with a 9 on it have you still not gained anything?

 

the part of this I don't totally understand (aside from bladehunter not liking fun, j/k) is that you guys say that the relationship of the number to the loft is sacrosanct, but you don't seem to consider anything else sacrosanct to a particular number (like shaft length, or weight) and those can also make you hit it shorter or farther.  So if I built a 37" 48* PW that went 10 yards farther, you're good, but a 35.75" 43* PW is a crime against golf.  I don't get why loft is so important compared to the other characteristics of a club. 

 

Are you just as outraged that the average shaft weight has decreased from 122 grams in 2011 to 90 grams in 2020?  Why am I not reading threads about how the distance gains from 60 gram graphite iron shafts are "fake" ?

It’s the correlation between loft, shaft length, shaft weight and swingweight that IS sacrosanct...for me anyways.

 

My view is that there is point where all of those factors come together and are in balance. If they didn’t we would all be playing with single length irons.

 

I’ve spent some time with a master club builder who told me about a project he had to make some single length clubs for a senior golfer (pre-Bryson). He explained that there is a real difficulty in achieving balance from club to club because it is really hard to match swingweights. The MOI of the whole club was impacted by the single length shaft to a degree that it was difficult to swing the clubs effectively. He got there in the end but he admitted that it was a total compromise. 

 

I have a set of 1971 MacGregors, 2 to 9 iron starting at 20* with 4* gaps. The shaft lengths exactly match my MP4s club for club yet the lofts are approximately one club out of sync. Unsurprisingly, the Macs are a club less in distance throughout even with a longer shaft. The lofts are the overriding factor. One thing I would say, the Macs have a super heavy, stiff shaft and my dispersion with them is far superior...they’re just too heavy to swing for me for 18 holes.

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10 hours ago, Red4282 said:

Because example 2 actually changed something other than a label.  Total weight, and length. example 1 just changed the label on the bottom. I must be smokin logic... 🤪

 

how about this. I have a blank iron head. You hit it 175. You are telling me that if i stamped “7” on it rather than “5”, did you actually gain distance? You hit it the same no matter the label. That is not a distance gain. Its a perceived gain, but not actual. If i gave you the same blank head and put a lightweight long shaft in it and another in a heavy short shaft, you would see a real distance gain in the first setup. I think you know this... which makes these threads even more so difficult for me. Peace ✌️ 

 

I didn't change the label on the bottom.  All three were stamped PW in my example.  One was bent stronger and one had a lighter and longer shaft installed.  I don't have any idea why you would think of those two things as different in terms of "actual" and "fake" distance.  They both become actually longer and they both still have PW on the bottom.

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I care less about loft jacking than I do the trend of dropping shaft weight by 40 grams. I get folks are getting older and there certainly should be accommodations for that but healthy men going to 90 gram shafts does not always promote better golf. Easier maybe but not better. Dispersion will suffer. The down side to full weight (125/135 gram) shafts is golf muscles need more maintenance. Pulling them out of trunk on Sunday does not really cut it. If one hits 100 balls a week in practice, you can carry an AARP card and TI DG too. Not all guys can do that so, lighter shafts work for them. But when I see a young stud with a 90g shaft beaning his #7i 200 yards with a 30 yard baby draw, my eyes roll & I get all Luddite about things and wish for the good old days.

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Has anyone ever tried to think of loft jacking without the number on the bottom of the club? If you look at it just from a pure loft perspective, one could argue that it's actually a weakening of the club rather than strengthening due to shorter shaft lengths on the same loft. Faldo talks about how the 30* club was his 5 iron. The difference in shaft length between the 7 and the 5 is typically 1". Now the with the new 'jacked lofts', that same 30* club head is on a 1" shorter shaft. Theoretically, the shorter shaft should allow the less-skilled player to launch the ball higher, something the less-skilled player often struggles with. At the same time, the shorter shaft reduces club-head speed for the same loft which should ultimately make the distance of the new 30* club less than the traditional 30* club (but probably doesn't due to technology). 

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On 11/19/2020 at 8:58 PM, bladehunter said:

I think it’s you not understanding what I said.  
 

I understand that a “ 5 iron “ isn’t a unit of measurement per say. But.  It is an understood step in a set of golf clubs. Generally coming after a LW Sw pw 9,8,7,6 irons. Right ?    But in this case we may now have a LW SW GW1 GW2 PW , 9,8,7,6.     Or worse.  The first  part was universally accepted until recently.  
 

I simply said. Print lofts INSTEAD of iron numbers.  Then it’s a clear picture.  

Still playing those  shiny Maura MC501. 46* pw?

 

Growing up I would have called that a 9 iron. But hey...keep kidding yourself about how far you hit your wedge. 😆

 

So it’s all relative.

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2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Still playing those  shiny Maura MC501. 46* pw?

 

Growing up I would have called that a 9 iron. But hey...keep kidding yourself about how far you hit your wedge. 😆

 

So it’s all relative.

Bent to 49  only had this set 2 weeks. But any set you see me with is based off a 49 degree Pw.   With this set it works perfectly as they have some  offset.  3 degrees weak fixes that too. 

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50 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Bent to 49  only had this set 2 weeks. But any set you see me with is based off a 49 degree Pw.   With this set it works perfectly as they have some  offset.  3 degrees weak fixes that too. 

Makes for a lot of bounce though.

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30 grams equals a little more than 1.0 ounce.  

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16 ounces equals 1 pint. 

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52 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I think I'm going to design a set of irons that all have the letters PW on the bottom of them. That way when anyone asks me what I hit, I can say "pitching wedge!". I just won't let them know it was my 24* PW. 😜

 

BT

 

If I knew Bladehunter's address I would absolutely get a driving iron from hurricane golf at around 40" and 45 grams, sand off the Turner label, and paint on "PW" and send it as a little present.

 

Like when a cat leaves a dead bird on your doorstep.  Its a sign of respect and friendship but, you know, its still a dead bird.

 

Also, TPC did a redesign!  We were closed 8 months.  Let me know if you get back down to NOLA and we can play again.  The course is very different.  Three hurricanes made it much easier and they cut the bunkers way down.  Only mention because they basically did exactly what you wanted them to do to the course - took out all the tiny bunkers and cut the big ones WAY back.  Course is slightly longer, but still way more fun and a lot less lost balls.

Edited by pinestreetgolf
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1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

If I knew Bladehunter's address I would absolutely get a driving iron from hurricane golf at around 40" and 45 grams, sand off the Turner label, and paint on "PW" and send it as a little present.

 

Like when a cat leaves a dead bird on your doorstep.  Its a sign of respect and friendship but, you know, its still a dead bird.

 

Also, TPC did a redesign!  We were closed 8 months.  Let me know if you get back down to NOLA and we can play again.  The course is very different.  Three hurricanes made it much easier and they cut the bunkers way down.  Only mention because they basically did exactly what you wanted them to do to the course - took out all the tiny bunkers and cut the big ones WAY back.  Course is slightly longer, but still way more fun and a lot less lost balls.

Dude !?   Why am I still being mentioned here ?  I deleted 10 posts and didn’t post again except to reply to shilgy .... 

 

it’s not that I mind really , or can’t handle the humor. I actually appreciate it.
 

 But just what it duly noted by the peanut gallery that loves to  announce  ME as top poster and assign  some sort of bullying title on me for defending a minority position. . 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Dude !?   Why am I still being mentioned here ?  I deleted 10 posts and didn’t post again except to reply to shilgy .... 

 

it’s not that I mind really , or can’t handle the humor. I actually appreciate it.
 

 But just what it duly noted by the peanut gallery that loves to  announce  ME as top poster and assign  some sort of bullying title on me for defending a minority position. . 


it was meant as an olive branch joke.

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:12 PM, Choclab said:

LOL, it's never even occurred to me to care if someone is hitting a modern iron farther than I do my 1990s Ram blades.  Who cares?  Irons are for accuracy, not distance. 

And this is absolutely true. I don't particularly care what people hit on approach shots (as long as I'm closer 😁).

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2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Dude !?   Why am I still being mentioned here ?  I deleted 10 posts and didn’t post again except to reply to shilgy .... 

 

it’s not that I mind really , or can’t handle the humor. I actually appreciate it.
 

 But just what it duly noted by the peanut gallery that loves to  announce  ME as top poster and assign  some sort of bullying title on me for defending a minority position. . 

Two things..first....in the post below yours Pine does add that it was an olive branch “joke” ...not a dig.

Second....for the guys that have been in the thread the whole time....how in the h*** would we know you deleted anything? I don’t know about you but I don’t go back and read old posts...just start up at the unread replies line.

 

 

Anyways...I was going to ask you about a pro player playing Ping power spec lofts.  There is an LPGA player playing those and many male pros say  custom lofts and lies.  Is she a poser? Why would a professional golfer on the best women’s tour play strong lofts?

 

image.jpeg.0f7f88ae75130d2565fc34a74499bcc3.jpeg

 

 

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Interesting video, it would have been nice to see a batch of numbers with each club to see how consistent the distances were with each version. And what happened with the miss hits, did the spin drop off.

 

It’s always my worry with the wider soled / high launch low spin clubs, one odd shot creeps in where the spin drops off. The knuckle ball that goes 10 yards too far at the wrong time is one too many.

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2 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:


it was meant as an olive branch joke.

RIght. I got it. I said I “ appreciate the humor “. I truly did.  And this isn’t a dig at you specifically.  As you don’t seem to mind actual topic discussion regardless of stance.  
But I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of my being called out for posting vs the fact that I was being spoken to by several.  And still am. One speak being cool and one not.  That’s all.  

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42 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Two things..first....in the post below yours Pine does add that it was an olive branch “joke” ...not a dig.

Second....for the guys that have been in the thread the whole time....how in the h*** would we know you deleted anything? I don’t know about you but I don’t go back and read old posts...just start up at the unread replies line.

 

 

Anyways...I was going to ask you about a pro player playing Ping power spec lofts.  There is an LPGA player playing those and many male pros say  custom lofts and lies.  Is she a poser? Why would a professional golfer on the best women’s tour play strong lofts?

 

image.jpeg.0f7f88ae75130d2565fc34a74499bcc3.jpeg

 

 

All you have to do is go back and see that I deleted text from several posts and didn’t post again.  The posts are still there. Just no words.  You can’t technically delete posts anymore.  

 

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1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Two things..first....in the post below yours Pine does add that it was an olive branch “joke” ...not a dig.

Second....for the guys that have been in the thread the whole time....how in the h*** would we know you deleted anything? I don’t know about you but I don’t go back and read old posts...just start up at the unread replies line.

 

 

Anyways...I was going to ask you about a pro player playing Ping power spec lofts.  There is an LPGA player playing those and many male pros say  custom lofts and lies.  Is she a poser? Why would a professional golfer on the best women’s tour play strong lofts?

 

image.jpeg.0f7f88ae75130d2565fc34a74499bcc3.jpeg

 

 

 It likely fits the gapping with her wedges and woods better. *Some* manufacturers actually come out and say this very thing, they offer strong lofts for gapping options. 

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