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Mizuno and Faldo show difference between blades and newer clubs...it’s the loft


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Never underestimate the desire of the holier-than-thou golfer to try to tell other people how they should think about the game in the most condescending way possible.

Never underestimate the desire of the amateur golfer to believe that stamping a 6 iron with a 7 is going to be some sort of magic elixir 

If you strike the ball like Nick Faldo... sure.   For everyone else it's a different story. 

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6 hours ago, forrester_fire said:

 

I guess Ian at TXG doesn't know how to fit a driver...or maybe I just don't return the clubhead properly at impact with an iron.  I think the latter is more likely.

So your 30-40 yards further than him with a driver? And what clubs are u guys using?

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I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse me if this has been brought up.  A good player in my group recently went from Ping i20 irons to Callaway Epic Forged, which are very strong lofted.  He is well aware that the strong lofts are responsible for hitting "less" club into the greens, but he mentioned there is something psychologically positive about hitting less club.  It just feels that you can hit a 7 iron  straighter than a 5 iron.  The effect may go away over time but I do think there is some validity to it.  Also, most really strong lofted irons are oversized irons, which look easier to hit to most players.  On the other hand, larger irons probably don't look easier to hit to some players, especially low handicappers.  For those players, strong lofts probably hold little appeal.  As to gapping, I just ordered as set of PXG 0211's and had the lofts adjusted to do away with the 5 degree gaps in the short irons.  I can't remember which brand and model it was, but while wasting time on the web I came across a set that had 6 degree gaps in the shorter irons.  I can't imagine high handicappers being able to manipulate their distances well enough to allow for that big a gap.

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9 minutes ago, CROUSE99 said:

I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse me if this has been brought up.  A good player in my group recently went from Ping i20 irons to Callaway Epic Forged, which are very strong lofted.  He is well aware that the strong lofts are responsible for hitting "less" club into the greens, but he mentioned there is something psychologically positive about hitting less club.  It just feels that you can hit a 7 iron  straighter than a 5 iron.  The effect may go away over time but I do think there is some validity to it.  Also, most really strong lofted irons are oversized irons, which look easier to hit to most players.  On the other hand, larger irons probably don't look easier to hit to some players, especially low handicappers.  For those players, strong lofts probably hold little appeal.  As to gapping, I just ordered as set of PXG 0211's and had the lofts adjusted to do away with the 5 degree gaps in the short irons.  I can't remember which brand and model it was, but while wasting time on the web I came across a set that had 6 degree gaps in the shorter irons.  I can't imagine high handicappers being able to manipulate their distances well enough to allow for that big a gap.


it’s not psychological. The shaft is shorter.

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^^^ interesting comment.

Kinda like how some guys with single length sets still feel they need to swing too hard on their long irons -> its all in the head.

 

And Yes ,the Cally Epic Forged 7i shaft is 37-5/8" while the Ping i20 5i is 38.0" 

Shorter is always easier in my book.

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On 11/25/2020 at 3:14 PM, Red4282 said:

So your 30-40 yards further than him with a driver? And what clubs are u guys using?

 

He's in an Epic Flash for which he was fitted at TXG last winter.  I have a 2016 M1, for which I wasn't fitted.  The difference is more in the 20 - 30 yards; I hit 3w as far, sometimes further.  Irons he has T200 (1 degree weak, also fitted at TXG) and I'm playing JPX-850F at stock loft/lie.

 

One of our playing partners is mid 50s and we both outdrive him 60-90 yards, but he's only a club to a club and a half shorter than me in the irons.  I flip...an 8i is like a 9i by the time I'm at impact.

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11 minutes ago, forrester_fire said:

 

He's in a Epic Flash for which he was fitted at TXG last winter.  I have a 2016 M1, for which I wasn't fitted.  The difference is more in the 20 - 30 yards; I hit 3w as far, sometimes further.  Irons he has T200 (1 degree weak, also fitted at TXG) and I'm playing JPX-850F at stock loft/lie.

 

One of our playing partners is mid 50s and we both outdrive him 60-90 yards, but he's only a club to a club and a half shorted than me in the irons.  I flip...an 8i is like a 9i by the time I'm at impact.

So the flaws are only with iron swings? The t200 has stronger lofts than your jpx btw, even with 1 degree weak. Somethin dont smell right, but ok. 

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6 hours ago, CROUSE99 said:

I haven't read the whole thread, so excuse me if this has been brought up.  A good player in my group recently went from Ping i20 irons to Callaway Epic Forged, which are very strong lofted.  He is well aware that the strong lofts are responsible for hitting "less" club into the greens, but he mentioned there is something psychologically positive about hitting less club.  It just feels that you can hit a 7 iron  straighter than a 5 iron.  The effect may go away over time but I do think there is some validity to it.  Also, most really strong lofted irons are oversized irons, which look easier to hit to most players.  On the other hand, larger irons probably don't look easier to hit to some players, especially low handicappers.  For those players, strong lofts probably hold little appeal.  As to gapping, I just ordered as set of PXG 0211's and had the lofts adjusted to do away with the 5 degree gaps in the short irons.  I can't remember which brand and model it was, but while wasting time on the web I came across a set that had 6 degree gaps in the shorter irons.  I can't imagine high handicappers being able to manipulate their distances well enough to allow for that big a gap.

Interesting, maybe i can have my 4iron stamped over with “pw”. My mind will never know. Darts from 220...

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1 minute ago, Red4282 said:

So the flaws are only with iron swings? The t200 has stronger lofts than your jpx btw, even with 1 degree weak. Somethin dont smell right, but ok. 

 

I think, bent weak, the T200 is only a degree stronger than my JPX.  I mean, I'm a 12 handicap, so my swing is flawed in general, but I'm an early extender (hence the flippy release), so it manifests itself more obviously in my iron play.

 

When my buddy was fit, he said his driver SS was typically around 99, whereas I'm closer to 110.

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On 11/26/2020 at 4:36 PM, Red4282 said:

Interesting, maybe i can have my 4iron stamped over with “pw”. My mind will never know. Darts from 220...

I've been saying for a while now that the way the jacked lofts are heading we'll have sets with a 21° PW and 7 Gap wedges before long. 

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:32 AM, pinestreetgolf said:


it’s not psychological. The shaft is shorter.

Wrong! 

 

My irons Mizuno MP 58 3 iron 21° loft, 38.75 length

 

Cobra Speedzone 5 iron 21° , 38.75 length.

 

But the Speedzone having 5 stamped on it definitely makes it easier to hit. I'd always replace a hard to hit 3 iron with a hybrid but not an easy to hit 5 iron.

 

Believe it or not a 5 iron used to be referred to as a 'mid iron'. 🙄

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I play a blended set of Titleist 718 AP1's and AP2's. According to the numbers stamped on the sole I play 6, 7, and 8 iron AP1's and 8, 9, and PW AP2's. People ask me why I have two 8 irons. I tell them it's because the AP1 8 iron is 34 degrees and the AP2 8 iron is 38 degrees. I had the AP1's built 1/2" over-length so the loft and length match between AP1's and AP2's in my set. The two blend very nicely because nearly all of distance difference is based on loft.

 

I got sick of doing the mental conversion for the AP1's so I removed the paint fill from the iron number stamped on the sole and wrote the "proper" iron number on the toe with a paint pen. I.e., on the AP1 6 iron I painted a 5, on the 7 iron I painted a 6, and on the 8 iron I painted a 7. Then it's on to my 8, 9, and PW AP2's. It all makes sense.

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4 minutes ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

I play a blended set of Titleist 718 AP1's and AP2's. According to the numbers stamped on the sole I play 6, 7, and 8 iron AP1's and 8, 9, and PW AP2's. People ask me why I have two 8 irons. I tell them it's because the AP1 8 iron is 34 degrees and the AP2 8 iron is 38 degrees. I had the AP1's built 1/2" over-length so the loft and length match between AP1's and AP2's in my set. The two blend very nicely because nearly all of distance difference is based on loft.

 

I got sick of doing the mental conversion for the AP1's so I removed the paint fill from the iron number stamped on the sole and wrote the "proper" iron number on the toe with a paint pen. I.e., on the AP1 6 iron I painted a 5, on the 7 iron I painted a 6, and on the 8 iron I painted a 7. Then it's on to my 8, 9, and PW AP2's. It all makes sense.

Nice work! 😎👍👊

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:32 AM, pinestreetgolf said:


it’s not psychological. The shaft is shorter.

Taking this a bit further. You claim the lofts are stronger but it's still a 7 iron because the shaft is shorter.

 

Oh-kaaay???

 

So my 7 iron

Loft 35° length 36.75

 

Speedzone 7 iron

Loft 27.5° length 37.25 

 

So the jacked loft 7 iron is also 0.5 inch longer. 

 

Meanwhile the equivalent or at least similar/closest loft 9 iron is 37° and 36.25 length. So only 0.50 in it. Or the 32° 8 iron is 36.75. The same length.

 

So your narrative that all these jacked loft irons are the same lengths as the 'traditional' lofted irons they replacing is clearly inaccurate.  

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On 11/17/2020 at 4:37 PM, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

Quelle surpise.

 

 

 

Cool video thx for posting 

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On 11/18/2020 at 8:13 AM, kiwihacker said:

I'm coming from irons with lofts that are now considered 'traditional' lofts (24° 4 iron - 47° PW) and the difficulty I'm having is that loft increments are all over the place in order to arrive at an approximately 50° Gap wedge. Looking at Titleist for example the T100 are much the same as mine. But the T200 and 300 my 4 - PW lofts are basically 5 - GW. But the GW being 48° means I still need another 52° GW.

 

But looking at say Srixon. The ZX 7 lofts effectively skip a club or split the difference between the 7, 8, 9 iron and PW.

 

My clubs: 35, 39, 43, 47

 

Srixon ZX 7: 36, 41, 46

 

So one less iron allows me to carry an extra wedge but effectively I've just tossed out my 8 iron and bent my 9 iron 2° strong. Sort of a minimalist approach. LOL

 

The ZX 5 on the other hand the 5-9 is basically my 4-8 then they add an extra 1° for a 44° PW vs my 43° 9 iron. Then a 50° Gap wedge? Fagettaboudit!!! There is a 10-15 yard gap between my 43° and 47° club. A 44° club would potentially leave me a 30 yard gap to a 50° club. 

 

I remember when I first had a Taylormade M5 set and the lofts were all strong, so obviously gave me more distance, relative to a players club... then I had Callaway Apex Pro Combo set and the 4i was equivalent to an M5 5i... now I have Taylormade P790/770 combo set (4/5 790, 6-PW 770) and 4i is the same situation... 

 

I remember reading some forum that technology within a club head doesn't progress as aggressively as advertised. Hell, you can also make the same argument with shafts. I think the only differentiating technology in a club head these days are that they're filling players distance irons with foam and inserting tungsten on the heel/toe areas. Aside from that, as long as the loft is the same and all other aspect of the club staying constant, I'd bet money clubs are pretty darn close to each other... it would take a robot swing (not human since it'd be erroneous) to determine it but these companies have to sell, right? So it is what it is... lol.

 

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On 11/24/2020 at 12:24 PM, forrester_fire said:

 

That means nothing.  I outdrive one of my playing partners by a good 30 yards but he hits his irons longer than me because he can actually (properly) deloft his irons at impact.

I understand what your saying.  My younger buddy does the same to me with driver. 

 

However, a properly struck ball doesn't have to be delofted to get distance.  I am 70, and use 1-2 clubs less compared to him and his lofts are stronger.  Yesterday on a 296 yard very tight Par 4 I hit a low-trajectory punch 2i down the middle for a 60yd leave, he used a wood and was behind me about 12yds.  Next hole he out drove me by 25yrds, he then hit 3wd, I hit 2 iron, our balls were next to one another.  Into afternoon breeze front pin, I hit PW and stuck it to 3', he hit 9i to middle of green.   Lots of people deloft, only they don't know that's what they are doing.

 

IMO - delofting irons it's not a good technique, as it's not consistent causing erratic distance control.

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On 11/19/2020 at 5:19 AM, toddyc said:


Take a look at the cobra speedzones. There may be some ignorance in your logic as well. 

6BB333C9-A7B6-43C7-A848-C86ED1FF671B.png

Absurd specs. The number on the sole doesn't really matter, but playing these clubs will, best case, give you a 3 yard gap between your 4 and 5 irons and 20 yards between your wedges.

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***modern lie angles ***
 

This topic of lofts is always hotly contested,  whereas the PW (set club or wedge) could be 44,45,46,47,48,49* ; just depends how you want your scoring clubs set up.  End at 58* , 59 , 60, 62???  
 

 This design shift hurts more the ave joe golfer and non-wrx’er who is not cognizant of the gapping at the top.   This player is the causality of the loft space race IMOP

 

 Lofts , which are a personal fitting trait to distance gaping tailored to the individuals  game , Modern lie angles i feel are where we can’t see the forest through the trees. Which IMOP biggest farce in design change comes tandem to loft creep is movement to upright lie angles, “ forced elimination of the slice “.
 

Yes golfers are taller , I feel esp as a tall golfer over felt like upright was the way at times and previous to my membership / education here thought that accurate  .  I’ve played titleist std to , +2 off that , to my go to spec of below.   
 

not that golfers can’t play strong lofts or upright lies , I’m sure many players are fit to the swing they have , won’t work on ball compression or attacking the iron shot from the inside vs OTT move. Can’t assess blame to a fitter or club company going with the easier path and pleasing the consumer. 

 

Most golfers won’t break 100 , ave 225 off the tee , and putt more than 36 times per 18, but if they enjoy hitting the 7 really a 5 180 yds and grows the game, well who’s to argue.    The enlightened few will find their way here and go down the rabbit hole of Golfwrx, may god have mercy on strong lofts , upright lie angle and their  pocket book

 

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16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I understand what your saying.  My younger buddy does the same to me with driver. 

 

However, a properly struck ball doesn't have to be delofted to get distance.  I am 70, and use 1-2 clubs less compared to him and his lofts are stronger.  Yesterday on a 296 yard very tight Par 4 I hit a low-trajectory punch 2i down the middle for a 60yd leave, he used a wood and was behind me about 12yds.  Next hole he out drove me by 25yrds, he then hit 3wd, I hit 2 iron, our balls were next to one another.  Into afternoon breeze front pin, I hit PW and stuck it to 3', he hit 9i to middle of green.   Lots of people deloft, only they don't know that's what they are doing.

 

IMO - delofting irons it's not a good technique, as it's not consistent causing erratic distance control.

 

I guess a better way to put it is that I'm not very good at getting my hands in front of the ball at impact with irons.

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6 hours ago, Strömsborg said:

Absurd specs. The number on the sole doesn't really matter, but playing these clubs will, best case, give you a 3 yard gap between your 4 and 5 irons and 20 yards between your wedges.

Yeah I figure you can ignore the club numbers. The gapping is dismal and definitely hints at trying to make sales by moving the lofts down as much as possible  

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On 12/2/2020 at 12:00 AM, drbonesvt said:

***modern lie angles ***
 

This topic of lofts is always hotly contested,  whereas the PW (set club or wedge) could be 44,45,46,47,48,49* ; just depends how you want your scoring clubs set up.  End at 58* , 59 , 60, 62???  
 

 This design shift hurts more the ave joe golfer and non-wrx’er who is not cognizant of the gapping at the top.   This player is the causality of the loft space race IMOP

 

 Lofts , which are a personal fitting trait to distance gaping tailored to the individuals  game , Modern lie angles i feel are where we can’t see the forest through the trees. Which IMOP biggest farce in design change comes tandem to loft creep is movement to upright lie angles, “ forced elimination of the slice “.
 

Yes golfers are taller , I feel esp as a tall golfer over felt like upright was the way at times and previous to my membership / education here thought that accurate  .  I’ve played titleist std to , +2 off that , to my go to spec of below.   
 

not that golfers can’t play strong lofts or upright lies , I’m sure many players are fit to the swing they have , won’t work on ball compression or attacking the iron shot from the inside vs OTT move. Can’t assess blame to a fitter or club company going with the easier path and pleasing the consumer. 

 

Most golfers won’t break 100 , ave 225 off the tee , and putt more than 36 times per 18, but if they enjoy hitting the 7 really a 5 180 yds and grows the game, well who’s to argue.    The enlightened few will find their way here and go down the rabbit hole of Golfwrx, may god have mercy on strong lofts , upright lie angle and their  pocket book

 

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You're spot on about the lie angles. Looking at those Cobra Speedzone specs I think oh well I'll just play 6 iron to gap wedge but then that 24° 6 irons lie angle is 63° whereas my 24° 4 iron lie is 60°. 3 degrees upright? WTF???

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1 hour ago, kiwihacker said:

You're spot on about the lie angles. Looking at those Cobra Speedzone specs I think oh well I'll just play 6 iron to gap wedge but then that 24° 6 irons lie angle is 63° whereas my 24° 4 iron lie is 60°. 3 degrees upright? WTF???

ESP on the wedges 

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7 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

You're spot on about the lie angles. Looking at those Cobra Speedzone specs I think oh well I'll just play 6 iron to gap wedge but then that 24° 6 irons lie angle is 63° whereas my 24° 4 iron lie is 60°. 3 degrees upright? WTF???

 

He touched on it in his post.

 

Players of GI irons are far more likely to need help to the draw side than players of blades or even player's CBs. Hence, more upright lie angles ?

 

And IIRC Titleist lie angles are generally less upright than most others. Not sure about that. But what I am sure about is, like most other things equipment related, there are no standards.

 

 

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      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #6
      Cameron Smith's Cameron 11.5 putter - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Cameron putter 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      2021 Ping putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Rory wearing new Nike Tour Victory II shoes - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Odyssey putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
       
      • 66 replies
    • 2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - discussion
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #1
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #2
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #3
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #4
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #7
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #8
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #9

      Ryan Moore with Axis 1 putter @ 2021 AT&T PB
       
       
       
      Please post any questions and comments here
      • 59 replies
    • 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion
      General galleries
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #1
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #2
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #3
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #4
      Monday Qualifier for Waste Management Open 
      Special galleries
       
      Ping PLD putters - 2021 WMPO Scott Brown with MMT graphite shafts in his ProTo Concept irons - 2021 WMPO TaylorMade putter cover from 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open New Srixon golf balls - 2021 WMPO Bettinardi putters & cover - 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Piretti putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron mallets - 2021 WMPO Odyssey 2-ball Ten - 2021 WMPO  
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      Jason Day's Bag...
      • 21 replies
    • 2021 FARMERS WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies

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