Winter is for experimenting - solving the total weight vs swingweight conundrum for my swing

[andrevanderpost]

Going in to my third winter since being diagnosed with diabetes and the consequences in joint pain etc that have come with the disease leaves me still trying to solve the conundrum of finding an iron set up that allows me to play somewhat pain free, supports the loss of strength as well as still lets me be consistent.

 

I am a plus index golfer that used to hit the ball a long way using heavy shafts in everything. Given my swing mechanics I was one of those that did not benefit from

lighter shafts but with everything my body has endured over the last few years I have faced the problem of “heavy hurts”.

 

if I play heavy shafts at “normal swing weights i.e. D2” distance is still ok and consistency of strike is good but it hurts like hell. If I go light shafts built to any swingweight I lose distance and consistency goes out the window but it doesn’t hurt.

 

The one setup I haven’t yet been able to really try is heavy shafts at much lighter swingweight (C8 or so) mostly

because achieving that without some form of counterbalancing in the butt of the shaft is tough and frankly when I have tried with counterweights it has been a crap shoot.

 

I want to try this out because I suspect that it is the swingweight and not total weight that causes the joint pain but the total weight that gives me better consistency and ball speed.

 

I finally may have a set of heads though which will allow me to try this out. My P7MC came with the new KBS Tour 2020 shafts at D2 but on inspection each had at least an 8g bullet weight in the head. So based on this I think I can probably rebuild them to C8.

 

My question to all out there is who else has tried something similar and found success or am I just chasing a pipe dream.

 

[jvincent]

First question, have you tried a heavy graphite shaft?

[andrevanderpost]

10 minutes ago, jvincent said:

First question, have you tried a heavy graphite shaft?

Yep everything from 125g to 75g. Graphite doesn’t help the joint issues.

[jvincent]

53 minutes ago, andrevanderpost said:

Yep everything from 125g to 75g. Graphite doesn’t help the joint issues.

 

Hmm, that was the obvious thing to try.

 

Have you tried a light weight shaft with a counter weight, like a shaft extension in the butt end except cut off so that it doesn't actually extend the club and a heavy, mid-size grip?

 

That will get the total weight up and keep the swingweight light.

[Socrates]

Don't think lighter shafts will help.  More flexible would be the way to go IMO.  At some point you might have to give up some accuracy to keep playing without pain.

 

Meanwhile, there have been some advances being made in Canada with diabetes research.  One can only hope this is more than just researchers looking for more cash.

 

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/cure-for-diabetes-university-of-alberta-researchers-believe-they-ve-found-one-1.5192813

[Stuart_G]

That much pain in three years is unusual.  It certainly could mean you went un-diagnosed for a very long time but it also could mean that maybe you have something else going on.  Sometimes it's easier for Doctors to blame the diabetes than to make the effort to really verify that something else might be going on.  I'm a type 1 (for more than 25 years now) so have a little experience with that.  If you haven't already, you might want to get a second opinion - see a rheumatologist.

 

However back to the question.  Socrates is correct, sometimes you have to compromise and find a balance between the different issues.  It's not uncommon that medical conditions can get in the way of what might normally be a good fit for your swing.   I've had to deal with similar issue with respect to my arthritis.  My natural swing would normally benefit from heavier shaft weight and swing weight - but the arthritis limits how heavy I can go.  Fortunately for me, the graphite shafts do a great job of managing the pain.  The conflict comes more from the perceived reduction of strength in the hands so I need to play lighter swing weights than would be ideal for the swing.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Stuart_G

[mvhoffman]

9 hours ago, andrevanderpost said:

Going in to my third winter since being diagnosed with diabetes and the consequences in joint pain etc that have come with the disease leaves me still trying to solve the conundrum of finding an iron set up that allows me to play somewhat pain free, supports the loss of strength as well as still lets me be consistent.

 

I am a plus index golfer that used to hit the ball a long way using heavy shafts in everything. Given my swing mechanics I was one of those that did not benefit from

lighter shafts but with everything my body has endured over the last few years I have faced the problem of “heavy hurts”.

 

if I play heavy shafts at “normal swing weights i.e. D2” distance is still ok and consistency of strike is good but it hurts like hell. If I go light shafts built to any swingweight I lose distance and consistency goes out the window but it doesn’t hurt.

 

The one setup I haven’t yet been able to really try is heavy shafts at much lighter swingweight (C8 or so) mostly

because achieving that without some form of counterbalancing in the butt of the shaft is tough and frankly when I have tried with counterweights it has been a crap shoot.

 

I want to try this out because I suspect that it is the swingweight and not total weight that causes the joint pain but the total weight that gives me better consistency and ball speed.

 

I finally may have a set of heads though which will allow me to try this out. My P7MC came with the new KBS Tour 2020 shafts at D2 but on inspection each had at least an 8g bullet weight in the head. So based on this I think I can probably rebuild them to C8.

 

My question to all out there is who else has tried something similar and found success or am I just chasing a pipe dream.

 

First off... where is the joint pain?  hands/wrists/elbows/fingers?  I ask this because unfortunately, when we diagnose people with diabetes later in life it is not usually due to a "check up" but because of pains and aches that pop up, obviously unless you have been pre-diabetic and been monitored for a while.  With these aches and pains usually comes neuropathy in some cases.  Most prominent in legs and feet with diabetes, however some people can show signs in the wrist, fingers, etc. 

 

If this is the case, before tackling shafts and swing weights, you may simply just want to try a different grip.   I'm not saying cut them off and go with the jumbomax, but what I am saying is that maybe go with a softer grip to start.  I don't know what type of grips you play, but the vibrations from ball/ground contact could be causing the majority of your problems.  I'm not saying it would fix everything but it may help.  Winn, GP CP2, Avon, Lamkin, they all have grips that have a softer profile.  Instead of ripping the clubs apart, this could be a cheap (ebay, amazon) experiment.  Some of the softer grips tend to be a bit heavier as well so you may be able to get the swingweight change that way.

 

If the grip switch does not work, or didn't work because you have already tried it, may I recommend that you talk to a true club fitter.  I follow a channel on youtube call McGolf.  He is based out of Ohio, USA and has a great presence on social media.  He has made videos discussing issues like this in the past.  He has answered every message I sent him via social media/email/etc.  He also does a live stream every monday where he answers questions.  This may be an option for you.

 

Good luck with everything!  Keep us updated on how you make out.

[andrevanderpost]

Guys thanks for the fantastic responses, insights and support. The pain is definitely associated to arthritis that is made worse by the diabetes.

 

I will try your various suggestions and let you know what works!

 

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, mvhoffman said:

First off... where is the joint pain?  hands/wrists/elbows/fingers? 

 

When during the swing the pain occurs is also an important question.  Frequently we assume it's at impact since that's when the most stress occurs.  But if graphite didn't help the OP, it might be occurring some other time in the swing - which could point more toward shaft weight or even stiffness as a contributing factor.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Stuart_G

[andrevanderpost]

Stuart_G spot on! Pain is worst at the top of the swing and well after impact. Which is why started me thinking it was weight related. The physics of the swing and how a heavy weight (the clubhead) swings around essentially a fixed point (hands/arms/shoulders) leads me to believe that is swingweight that is the biggest culprit because of the leverage the extra headweight puts on the forearms wrist and shoulders....

 

Swingweight though as we all know is a combination of head and shaft weights and balance points hence the risk and error to find something that works 🙂  it isn’t the finding the number C8/D2 per se but a combination of head weight and shaft weight that works for me. Looking at a different grip is a great option too!

Edited November 19, 2020 by andrevanderpost

[Stuart_G]

23 minutes ago, andrevanderpost said:

Stuart_G spot on! Pain is worst at the top of the swing and well after impact. Which is why started me thinking it was weight related. The physics of the swing and how a heavy weight (the clubhead) swings around essentially a fixed point (hands/arms/shoulders) leads me to believe that is swingweight that is the biggest culprit because of the leverage the extra headweight puts on the forearms wrist and shoulders....

 

Swingweight though as we all know is a combination of head and shaft weights and balance points hence the risk and error to find something that works 🙂  it isn’t the finding the number C8/D2 per se but a combination of head weight and shaft weight that works for me. Looking at a different grip is a great option too!

 

One thing about arthritis is that it makes the hands either weaker or at least feel weaker which makes the grip feel less secure and forces the player to use more grip pressure than what might actually be needed.   That higher grip pressure can certainly be a contributing factor to the pain and heavier weights (swing weight or shaft weight) can make the problem worse.  BUT the weight might not really be the root cause or the best solution.  Just like @mvhoffman mentioned, I would recommend starting with the grip itself, specifically the size.  Experiment with different sizes and try to see if you can find a grip size that allows you to keep the grip pressure down to a minimum.    Also work on trying to stay aware of the grip pressure during the swing and to mentally try to keep it from getting out of hand.   Then after you've found the best grip then you can start to play around with different shaft and swing weights to see if you can get further relief.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Stuart_G

[jvincent]

Following up on the importance of grip size and firmness.

 

Many years ago I started the season trying out the soft Winn grips as an experiment. Within a week or so my fingers were on fire from joint pain. Something about the size / softness of the grips was causing me to grip it too tightly. I was amazed at how quickly it became an issue.

 

I switched back to my old grips and the pain was gone.

[animalgolfs]

Hopefully this isn't a long read:

 

Started down this path -graphite lighter weight, grips....just about everything under the sun! I have severe psoriatic arthritis- well have as it has been manageable with Humira[through now i have cancer due to use].

 

Anyways....I tried switching to lighter premium graphite shafts [Recoil 95]. These helped tremendously with joint pain in my hands/wrist/fingers! Nothing of note - my scores weren't that much different other than me missing greens more than normal. I found a 7i Recoil 110 off eBay for dirt cheap & put it in play. Definitely noticed my center striking improved with just that simple switch. Played Recoil 110 in-between cancer & new laser spinal fusion. So I really didn't play the 110 all that much over the past 5 years due to time off & treatments. 

 

Late last year & this year I've been playing alot. I picked up a set of legal groove i3+ blades recently & decided I'd try heavy weight steel X flex but ssx2. I specifically picked out Nippon Super Peening Orange for this experiment due to shaft profile, figuring the soft nature of certain Nippon shafts feeling so good.....but LITE weight. 

 

These clubs aren't even my gamers but I'll tell you right now.....my iron game with these is special. I literally have no business playing x-flex [think 140yd 7i] but these just work due to the weight. Yes, I feel it after a range session- BUT NOT in my hands/wrist/fingers! Its the bigger muscles where I feel the weight change. I play heavy swingweights as well D3-D7

 

None of this makes any sense in my 35yr+ experience. But I'll be damn if it don't work! I'm kicking myself for not switching to Recoil 125 way earlier......I was afraid due to weight & perceived pain.

 

Its how the club feels in your hands during the swing.

 

EDIT: Heavy weight active/soft tip ssx2 & heavy sw[d5] worked out for me with SEVERE arthritis 

Edited November 19, 2020 by animalgolfs

[ChipNRun]

15 hours ago, andrevanderpost said:

My question to all out there is who else has tried something similar and found success or am I just chasing a pipe dream.

This spins off of what @Stuart_Gtalked about on getting medical help.

 

Do you have a university medical school near where you live? If so, see how much they go into sports medicine. In St. Louis area, one of the hospital does this, and is a major sponsor of the St. Louis Golf Expo every February.

 

Several of the doctors and therapists are golfers, and they make expo presentations on the physical part of the golf swing at the expo. Plus, a combination of therapist and golf pro can suggest possible solutions. These involve adjustments to both your equipment and your swing motion, plus exercise routines to shore up weak points.

 

I have an arthritic right hip, which is minor to what you face. Physical therapy helped me out.  Hopefully you can find help to keep golf and lessen pain.

[andrevanderpost]

Thought I would provide a quick update on progress - I tried a bunch of combinations starting with heavyish total weight +  light SW (KBS Tour stiff at C7) through to ultralight total weight + normal SW (Recoil ES 460 stiff at D1) to see what the outcomes would be in terms of performance, feel and pain management.  The findings were actually a little surprising (or maybe not so much):

- Heavy TW + light SW = loss of distance, loss of consistency and no change in pain situation

- mid TW + light SW or normal SW = normal distance, normal consistency but no change in pain situation

- light TW + light, normal SW = normal distance, loss of consistency and improved pain situation

- ulralight TW + normal SW = improved distance, normal consistency and significantly improved pain situation

 

What I seemed to have found is that the shoulder and elbows have a shaft weight (assuming similar head weights) "tolerance" of around 70g uncut before I start to see some level of pain.  Pain is manageable up to about 85g and thereafter it doesn't change and is somewhat unserviceable.  What surprised me was that at the ultralight shaft weight (67g) with a decent D1 swingweight I actually hit the ball solidly without pain so that is what I am going with for now.

[ChaosTheory]

That mirrors what I find with my swing.  Lighter total weight puts a lot less stress on the hands and arms.  I don't know how to calculate the physics math, but at say 85 MPH the pull on the hands and arms is (I suspect) quite a bit higher with a 125 gram  shafted iron than with a 70 gram one. 

 

You can play with more head and grip weight to somewhat change the feel for the better.  I'd also be suggesting larger grips.  And finally, using less effort in the actual swing.  Take an extra club for almost every shot.

 

Another idea is to play not just lighter but also longer irons, if you can control them.   So you pick up a couple of MPH potential, which you can turn around and throttle down on instead.  I find that the too light shafts feel better (heft wise) at longer lengths.   So maybe 70 gram shafts at one inch longer than you play now.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, andrevanderpost said:

Thought I would provide a quick update on progress - I tried a bunch of combinations starting with heavyish total weight +  light SW (KBS Tour stiff at C7) through to ultralight total weight + normal SW (Recoil ES 460 stiff at D1) to see what the outcomes would be in terms of performance, feel and pain management.  The findings were actually a little surprising (or maybe not so much):

- Heavy TW + light SW = loss of distance, loss of consistency and no change in pain situation

- mid TW + light SW or normal SW = normal distance, normal consistency but no change in pain situation

- light TW + light, normal SW = normal distance, loss of consistency and improved pain situation

- ulralight TW + normal SW = improved distance, normal consistency and significantly improved pain situation

 

What I seemed to have found is that the shoulder and elbows have a shaft weight (assuming similar head weights) "tolerance" of around 70g uncut before I start to see some level of pain.  Pain is manageable up to about 85g and thereafter it doesn't change and is somewhat unserviceable.  What surprised me was that at the ultralight shaft weight (67g) with a decent D1 swingweight I actually hit the ball solidly without pain so that is what I am going with for now.

 

Since you're mixing graphite and steel shafts in the test, you have to realize that the weight may no longer be the major contributing factor in the pain reduction results.   When it comes to pain management, that's where the shaft material will usually play the biggest role.

 

Also stiffness profile is a big variable as well that may be contributing to the consistency of the results.  If you really want to figure out the effects of weight, you have to remove that as a variable.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Stuart_G

[cardoustie]

I ache all over as well and am a former heavy shaft guy

 

All I can say is going to recoil 95's, a little longer (plus 1 vs plus 1/2"), with iomic 2.3 sticky grips with some extra wraps made a massive difference for me .. I run very heavy swing-weights though .. D7-E3

[andrevanderpost]

29 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Since you're mixing graphite and steel shafts in the test, you have to realize that the weight may no longer be the major contributing factor in the pain reduction results.   When it comes to pain management, that's where the shaft material will usually play the biggest role.

 

Also stiffness profile is a big variable as well that may be contributing to the consistency of the results.  If you really want to figure out the effects of weight, you have to remove that as a variable.

 

Good point - I actually tested both lightweight steel (Nippon Zelos 7,8) and graphite (Recoil ESX 460, Recoil 780 SmacWrap and Tour AD 75) to see if there was a major difference. Pain or lack thereof was the same across steel and graphite at similar weights.  What I did find though was performance was actually better in the lightweight graphite than the steel and I suspect that is down to the shaft stiffness and profile.  It seems (from a feel perspective and results) that the lightweight graphite is more stable than the lightweight steel.

 

I think that this would absolutely back up your thoughts around stiffness profile.

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, andrevanderpost said:

 

Good point - I actually tested both lightweight steel (Nippon Zelos 7,8) and graphite (Recoil ESX 460, Recoil 780 SmacWrap and Tour AD 75) to see if there was a major difference. Pain or lack thereof was the same across steel and graphite at similar weights.  What I did find though was performance was actually better in the lightweight graphite than the steel and I suspect that is down to the shaft stiffness and profile.  It seems (from a feel perspective and results) that the lightweight graphite is more stable than the lightweight steel.

 

I think that this would absolutely back up your thoughts around stiffness profile.

 

Not surprising the graphite can be stiffer in the lighter weights.  In steel wall thickness plays a big part in both weight and stiffness while for graphite, where the strength comes from the lightweight carbon fiber while much of the weight comes from the epoxy which doesn't contribute to the strength.

[Exactice808]

Already amazing posters in this thread but I will just provide additional thoughts. While my circumstances are different, I did go through some growing pains in relation to swing weight.

 

 

1) Had X100 in my AP2s,  felt they were too much, and by the 16th hole I was getting gassed out.  It felt too demanding on the body.

2) Had 1150GH Stiff swapped in after I had a full blow shaft fitting, trying all kinds of shafts,  Modus3, KBS, Dynalites etc.

3) NOT realizing till recent,  they did NOT match the swing weights, unknowingly the SW was C7ish Compared to the many years of playing D2's- I struggled with this setup and many threads arguing about the AP2's going left and long and not gaining ANY benefits of the GI heads

4) Found some Cobra MB's yet again a little out of spec (unknowingly) after having them retrimmed....... Played better but not seemingly my best.... you guessed it recently checked the SW....D0

5) Bought some Sub70, weird they felt heavy... then the experiments began.  lo and behold, D2 swing weight now... playing some of the best golf since my prior prime days.

 

Moving on....and the BIGGEST struggle Driver, years of threads asking for help with a driver, ZERO consistency. Zero Confidence, to many stupid swing fixes to count.  I noticed I was drawn to the "tour heads"  Nike Covert 1.0, D5 swing weight, Slice machine dumped it..... Titleist 915D3, D2 and played much better but still not the best,  Friend gave me his TM M3.  D5 swing weight..... rights, always going right...... Said screw it,  Pulled off the second weight (11 grams) immediately dropped to C9 way too light and big time lefts/hooks (for me are you starting to see the trend?).  Added 6 grams of tungsten putty,  D2 SW.... this has been the BEST driving stats EVER in my entire golfing career.

 

Just to give you an idea, My 2020 score average is 14.3,  it went up horribly, COVID in general and normal struggles.  8 rounds since starting my own SW thread and straightening it all out, round average 81.8 and that is with the random 91 on 11/14 which I just had a bad day.   Thats a 5 stroke swing average ONLY after straightening out my swing weight, NO swing changes at all.

 

 

 

I currently struggle with back pains but due to a herniated disk pinching the sciatic nerve, which has plagued me for almost 3 months now, but its gotten better due to stretching properly.  Lastly the misunderstanding of body aches, from the past was due to bad swing mechanics.... Steeper AOA causing joint issue pains,  bad posture causing lower back & overswing pain etc.

 

 

Now I swing within my physical limits with a little better AoA and the elbow, shoulder issues are gone,  the back is way more manageable now after constant Sciatica stretches. 

 

Experiment with Swing Weights! I personally suggest it... it seem to be the godsend for me personally. 

 

What I have noticed for me personally is the heavier the swing weight the more right it goes, the lighter, the more left.  Now my other buddy that has been a test subject as well, He used the C7 AP2s prior to the swing weight update, He was Sh@*king the ball,   I jammed between 10-16grams of lead weight in all the shafts (to get them to D2) and now he hits the ball straight with the set..... Amazing how Swing weight really affects a player.

 

 

GL OP!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Exactice808