Hybrid design question

[texengr]

There seems to be two hybrid face designs. One is similar to a wood with the sole at the toe curving up to the crown creating a point at the joint between the two. The other has a blunt more vertical sole turn up at the toe. For you design whiz's what's the difference in how they play? Or what type of swing is best for which club?

[joostin]

The vertical or taller more iron-like toe design was popularized by Adams' "upside down face" leading to designs like their 9031 series and Adams Pro Mini.  Callaway Apex, Hogan VKTR, others with that tall toe and flat-ish sole design basically copied the design.  One of the things Adams advertised was having more face area on the bottom where a lot of mishits occur.  But it has a lot to do with center of gravity, CG, placement.

Gonna get technical...... Design wise the high toe moves the CG towards the toe (or rather away from the heel where the hosel takes up a good amount of mass) just like an iron.  Here goes if you care to read on:

- With the CG relatively closer to the toe, there's more fade bias due to gear effect - like a toe weight on an adjustable driver.  A more heelward CG is more draw biased - also because of gear effect - and probably the reason you hear a lot of people hook the crap out of some hybrids.

- Also with a more toe-side CG, the more resistant to rate of face closure - also creating fade bias.  However, dynamically, the farther back the CG (away from face), the more the face will close automatically as the CG tries to align with the shaft - causing draw bias.  That effect is more prevalent in woods because they are wider from face to back.

- A higher toe tends to combine with a flatter sole to help bring the CG reasonably low for ease of launch.  Generally it's a more compact design because a lot of mass is taken up by the toe.  A higher CG will bias towards low launch and higher spin (not taking loft and swing into account).

- The more wood-like designs can afford to push CG back creating a higher MOI for off-center strikes - a more forgiving design.  It also adds dynamic loft as the CG tries to align with the shaft.  So the more wood-like the design is, it's likely to be more forgiving and higher launching than a compact hybrid.

Long story short, CG manipulation is key.  Taller toe / compact designs are generally more fade bias and lower launching than the more wood-like designs (not saying they still can't be hooked!).  "Better players" tend to like that because they may want something more iron-like than wood-like to replace long irons.  If you need help launching the ball higher, you're looking for more forgiveness, or you may be fighting a slice, look towards wood-like hybrids, or try a high lofted wood.  Then you have to figure out if you like how the club gets through rough, digs a divot or skids on the fairway, looks, feel, comfort, confidence...

All that said, YMMV, so you really have to try different clubs for yourself... thats the short answer to every post on this forum!

Edited November 21, 2020 by joostin

[ChipNRun]

One additional factor on hybrids: Sometimes the head design is such that the face is swept back just a little on the toe. Case in point: The Calla Big Bertha O'Size hybrids.

 

When I hit my 4H, I have to make sure I square up the sole line of the face, rather than the top line. The topline sweeps to slightly open, and if I square the topline (gold) I end up sometimes with a hook.

 

If I square the sole line (red), I get a very slight draw (my stock shot).

 

Detail is a bit hard to see.

 

Anyone seen this in other hybrids? 

[Bigjim1022]

I still game an Adam’s pro mini and it won’t be leaving my bag anytime soon.  It’s a 23° 4i replacement with a steel shaft and is my 200 yard club.  

[hagimihale]

@joostin's take on this seems spot on.

 

For years, the longest tenured club in my bag was a Cobra Baffler Pro hybrid.  I did a lot of research when it was time to upgrade, and the simplest summary seemed to be this:

 

• The more fairway wood type hybrids (i.e. 818H1) will be more forgiving, launch higher, be easier to draw (or limit a miss right).  These tend to be a better fit for sweepers (in terms of swing type). 
• The high-toe, vertical, more iron type hybrids (818H2, etc) flight lower and are more fade biased (or at least limit the miss left).  These tend to be a better fit if you trap or compress the ball.  

I fall into the latter camp, added a 818H2 with Tensei Pro White, and couldn't be happier.  YMMV, and I recommend you hit both types to be sure.

 

 

[leftymatt]

@ChipNRun  I've come across the same thing with some other hybrids. More often than not I line up w/ that leading edge square or slightly open

[Zandrah]

I love playing, hope to have some play a golf with you

https://bit.ly/36R79Lz
 

[Lemonde]

This is why I have recently switched to the VKTR, the M6 was a animal but was hook prone.  I need a more iron like miss 

[joostin]

12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

One additional factor on hybrids: Sometimes the head design is such that the face is swept back just a little on the toe. Case in point: The Calla Big Bertha O'Size hybrids.

 

When I hit my 4H, I have to make sure I square up the sole line of the face, rather than the top line. The topline sweeps to slightly open, and if I square the topline (gold) I end up sometimes with a hook.

 

If I square the sole line (red), I get a very slight draw (my stock shot).

 

Detail is a bit hard to see.

 

Anyone seen this in other hybrids? 

Definitely!  If the toe is higher at all than the heel, which on this club is the case (below), the topline will angle back - just like the topline of an iron, though not as pronounced.  The higher the loft, the greater that topline angles back.  Just take a wedge as an extreme example.  You'd never line up a shot with the topline of a wedge 🙂.  Scorelines definitely help in this regard.

[Bigjim1022]

3 hours ago, hagimihale said:

@joostin's take on this seems spot on.

 

For years, the longest tenured club in my bag was a Cobra Baffler Pro hybrid.  I did a lot of research when it was time to upgrade, and the simplest summary seemed to be this:

 

• The more fairway wood type hybrids (i.e. 818H1) will be more forgiving, launch higher, be easier to draw (or limit a miss right).  These tend to be a better fit for sweepers (in terms of swing type). 
• The high-toe, vertical, more iron type hybrids (818H2, etc) flight lower and are more fade biased (or at least limit the miss left).  These tend to be a better fit if you trap or compress the ball.  

I fall into the latter camp, added a 818H2 with Tensei Pro White, and couldn't be happier.  YMMV, and I recommend you hit both types to be sure.

 

 

I put an 818H2 in the bag this summer @19° and the thing is a beast.  I actually stopped looking for a 3 wood because this fit the Bill from the tee and turf for me. 

[ARL67]

I don’t  like hybrids with a long flat sole, such as the Ping G400 / G410, and others.  I prefer some camber ( aka sole curvature ) such as in the Titleist TS2 or 818H1.

[Drivingrangehero]

They had some super 9031’s (proto in black not white) on Hurricane Golf for $50 last week...... I picked up 3 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

https://www.hurricanegolf.com/close-out-golf-equipment/close-out-hybrids/adams-super-9031-hybrids.html?usource=lc&lctid=404312&lcid=1606080891_3_2003461

[hagimihale]

21 hours ago, Bigjim1022 said:

I put an 818H2 in the bag this summer @19° and the thing is a beast.  I actually stopped looking for a 3 wood because this fit the Bill from the tee and turf for me. 

 

I did the same thing, found I was not using the 3W b/c the 19* H2 was so solid.  Gave me an extra club to work with depending on course conditions etc.

[ChipNRun]

23 hours ago, joostin said:

You'd never line up a shot with the topline of a wedge 🙂

Wedges  have higher loft, and at setup are more blatant at showing you the alignments.

 

In case of hybrids, it took me four double bogies to figure out what was going on. 

[hagimihale]

For those of you who like the high-toe, squared off version of hybrids, and are looking for an older/budget model - check out Nickent. 

 

I keep a set up north with family so I don't have to travel with my sticks, and a Nickent 4DX 19* is in that bag.  Still crush that club to this day.