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Hybrid design question


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One additional factor on hybrids: Sometimes the head design is such that the face is swept back just a little on the toe. Case in point: The Calla Big Bertha O'Size hybrids.   When I hit my

The vertical or taller more iron-like toe design was popularized by Adams' "upside down face" leading to designs like their 9031 series and Adams Pro Mini.  Callaway Apex, Hogan VKTR, others with that

@joostin's take on this seems spot on.   For years, the longest tenured club in my bag was a Cobra Baffler Pro hybrid.  I did a lot of research when it was time to upgrade, and the simplest

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The vertical or taller more iron-like toe design was popularized by Adams' "upside down face" leading to designs like their 9031 series and Adams Pro Mini.  Callaway Apex, Hogan VKTR, others with that tall toe and flat-ish sole design basically copied the design.  One of the things Adams advertised was having more face area on the bottom where a lot of mishits occur.  But it has a lot to do with center of gravity, CG, placement.

Gonna get technical...... Design wise the high toe moves the CG towards the toe (or rather away from the heel where the hosel takes up a good amount of mass) just like an iron.  Here goes if you care to read on:

- With the CG relatively closer to the toe, there's more fade bias due to gear effect - like a toe weight on an adjustable driver.  A more heelward CG is more draw biased - also because of gear effect - and probably the reason you hear a lot of people hook the crap out of some hybrids.

- Also with a more toe-side CG, the more resistant to rate of face closure - also creating fade bias.  However, dynamically, the farther back the CG (away from face), the more the face will close automatically as the CG tries to align with the shaft - causing draw bias.  That effect is more prevalent in woods because they are wider from face to back.

- A higher toe tends to combine with a flatter sole to help bring the CG reasonably low for ease of launch.  Generally it's a more compact design because a lot of mass is taken up by the toe.  A higher CG will bias towards low launch and higher spin (not taking loft and swing into account).

- The more wood-like designs can afford to push CG back creating a higher MOI for off-center strikes - a more forgiving design.  It also adds dynamic loft as the CG tries to align with the shaft.  So the more wood-like the design is, it's likely to be more forgiving and higher launching than a compact hybrid.

Long story short, CG manipulation is key.  Taller toe / compact designs are generally more fade bias and lower launching than the more wood-like designs (not saying they still can't be hooked!).  "Better players" tend to like that because they may want something more iron-like than wood-like to replace long irons.  If you need help launching the ball higher, you're looking for more forgiveness, or you may be fighting a slice, look towards wood-like hybrids, or try a high lofted wood.  Then you have to figure out if you like how the club gets through rough, digs a divot or skids on the fairway, looks, feel, comfort, confidence...

All that said, YMMV, so you really have to try different clubs for yourself... thats the short answer to every post on this forum!

Edited by joostin
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D Adams XTD, 70M4X 3W TEE CBX, HZBk75S 5W Titleist 915F, D+80X

3I Srixon Z 545 4H Adams S 9031 6I-PW Mizuno MP-54, C Taper Lite X

GW Nike VPC, Tour V X 54 60 Cleveland CBX, DG S300 Cure CX3

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One additional factor on hybrids: Sometimes the head design is such that the face is swept back just a little on the toe. Case in point: The Calla Big Bertha O'Size hybrids.

 

image.png.f2aba1b7578dd3198ccec98a48535d5e.pngWhen I hit my 4H, I have to make sure I square up the sole line of the face, rather than the top line. The topline sweeps to slightly open, and if I square the topline (gold) I end up sometimes with a hook.

 

If I square the sole line (red), I get a very slight draw (my stock shot).

 

Detail is a bit hard to see.

 

Anyone seen this in other hybrids? 

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What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges:  Calla MD3: 48°, 54°... MD4: 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced)

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

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@joostin's take on this seems spot on.

 

For years, the longest tenured club in my bag was a Cobra Baffler Pro hybrid.  I did a lot of research when it was time to upgrade, and the simplest summary seemed to be this:

 

  • The more fairway wood type hybrids (i.e. 818H1) will be more forgiving, launch higher, be easier to draw (or limit a miss right).  These tend to be a better fit for sweepers (in terms of swing type). 
  • The high-toe, vertical, more iron type hybrids (818H2, etc) flight lower and are more fade biased (or at least limit the miss left).  These tend to be a better fit if you trap or compress the ball.  

I fall into the latter camp, added a 818H2 with Tensei Pro White, and couldn't be happier.  YMMV, and I recommend you hit both types to be sure.

 

 

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This is why I have recently switched to the VKTR, the M6 was a animal but was hook prone.  I need a more iron like miss 

Cobra SpeedZone Pars & Stripes 9.0 Fujikura Ventus Velocore Blue S 45.5”

PONDERING: Ventus Red 60x, Aldila RIP 60x, HZRDUS RDX Blue 60TX

Tour Edge EXS 220 13.5 HZRDUS Smoke Yellow 6.5
Ben Hogan VKTR+ 18 UST Recoil ES 95 F5 X 

New Level NLU-01 21 Nippon Modus Pro 120X 1 Flat
Mizuno JPX 921 Forged 5-GW Nippon Modus Pro 120X 1 Flat

PONDERING: Fourteen DJ4 54

TaylorMade Hi Toe 58 ATV

Rife Phenom.Z 34”
Mizuno K1 Lo 2021 Blue/Red
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12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

One additional factor on hybrids: Sometimes the head design is such that the face is swept back just a little on the toe. Case in point: The Calla Big Bertha O'Size hybrids.

 

image.png.f2aba1b7578dd3198ccec98a48535d5e.pngWhen I hit my 4H, I have to make sure I square up the sole line of the face, rather than the top line. The topline sweeps to slightly open, and if I square the topline (gold) I end up sometimes with a hook.

 

If I square the sole line (red), I get a very slight draw (my stock shot).

 

Detail is a bit hard to see.

 

Anyone seen this in other hybrids? 

Definitely!  If the toe is higher at all than the heel, which on this club is the case (below), the topline will angle back - just like the topline of an iron, though not as pronounced.  The higher the loft, the greater that topline angles back.  Just take a wedge as an extreme example.  You'd never line up a shot with the topline of a wedge 🙂.  Scorelines definitely help in this regard.

Screenshot_20201122-124120_eBay.jpg.a3d07a4faaf5991b00792fc63a6c85f9.jpg

D Adams XTD, 70M4X 3W TEE CBX, HZBk75S 5W Titleist 915F, D+80X

3I Srixon Z 545 4H Adams S 9031 6I-PW Mizuno MP-54, C Taper Lite X

GW Nike VPC, Tour V X 54 60 Cleveland CBX, DG S300 Cure CX3

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3 hours ago, hagimihale said:

@joostin's take on this seems spot on.

 

For years, the longest tenured club in my bag was a Cobra Baffler Pro hybrid.  I did a lot of research when it was time to upgrade, and the simplest summary seemed to be this:

 

  • The more fairway wood type hybrids (i.e. 818H1) will be more forgiving, launch higher, be easier to draw (or limit a miss right).  These tend to be a better fit for sweepers (in terms of swing type). 
  • The high-toe, vertical, more iron type hybrids (818H2, etc) flight lower and are more fade biased (or at least limit the miss left).  These tend to be a better fit if you trap or compress the ball.  

I fall into the latter camp, added a 818H2 with Tensei Pro White, and couldn't be happier.  YMMV, and I recommend you hit both types to be sure.

 

 

I put an 818H2 in the bag this summer @19° and the thing is a beast.  I actually stopped looking for a 3 wood because this fit the Bill from the tee and turf for me. 

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I don’t  like hybrids with a long flat sole, such as the Ping G400 / G410, and others.  I prefer some camber ( aka sole curvature ) such as in the Titleist TS2 or 818H1.

WITB: Sun Mountain 4.5LS

Titleist TS3 10.5 with Evenflow T1100 White 65

Titleist TS2 16.5 with Accra Tour Z x275

Titleist TS2 19* hybrid with Evenflow White 90

Titleist TS2 23* hybrid with Accra FX300H

Mizuno MP-18 MMC 5-PW with Steelfiber i110cw

Mizuno JPX-900F 50* with Steelfiber i110cw

Cleveland RTX 54* & 58* Mid with Steelfiber i110cw

Platinum M7 Tour with SS Pistol Grip

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21 hours ago, Bigjim1022 said:

I put an 818H2 in the bag this summer @19° and the thing is a beast.  I actually stopped looking for a 3 wood because this fit the Bill from the tee and turf for me. 

 

I did the same thing, found I was not using the 3W b/c the 19* H2 was so solid.  Gave me an extra club to work with depending on course conditions etc.

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23 hours ago, joostin said:

You'd never line up a shot with the topline of a wedge 🙂

Wedges  have higher loft, and at setup are more blatant at showing you the alignments.

 

In case of hybrids, it took me four double bogies to figure out what was going on. 

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges:  Calla MD3: 48°, 54°... MD4: 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced)

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

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