Players who were able to close the club in transition and downswing - what worked?

[gentles]

Been working with a coach and we have identified the club as being too open from transition into the downswing - we worked on flexing left wrist, keeping extension in the right wrist, slightly strengthening the grip. 

 

I know this is a common change that many players make to have more control of the clubface through impact zone, and it seems like there are a number of  different ways to get it.

 

For those who have successfully made this shift to a more closed clubface in transition and downswing, what were the feels, drills, technical changes etc that made the change stick for you? 

[MysteryV]

Stronger grip.  Tyler Ferrel's "Motorcycle" movement.

 

With the motorcycle, I'd recommend having someone hold the head of a driver and doing slow motion swings to get the feel of continuing to motorcycle through impact (not just at the top).

[MonteScheinblum]

Get the center of mass of the club behind your hands without over tilting your shoulders.

[Gsea]

My thought that I use is keep the club face pointed at the ball as long as possible in the backswing.

[b.mattay]

For me, proper wrist/clubface orientation occurs when I get my body/arm movements better. Getting my right humerus elevated off my chest earlier in the backswing and starting my downswing pressure shift earlier=less pulling of the handle forward and wrist extension. 

[gentles]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:24 PM, Gsea said:

My thought that I use is keep the club face pointed at the ball as long as possible in the backswing.

 And just try and hold it there throughout the swing? 

 

On 11/23/2020 at 12:19 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Get the center of mass of the club behind your hands without over tilting your shoulders.

 

Love this - watched a video in another thread about single arm swings with the lead arm to really feel this - you mean over tilting too steep or too level (or both?)

[PureStrikes54]

The hanger training aid. Turn it to about 2 o'clock on the grip (with 12 being straight down the center of the shaft) and get it to touch your lead forearm in transition. Not a fan of how heavy it is and how much it throws the swing weight off but good at showing you the proper wrist movements. 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

I first needed to just get used to the feel of swinging a more closed club face. So a lot of practice swings getting a sense for what it feels like with a flatter wrist at the top and then messing around with varying degrees of "motorcycling" in the downswing.  It's a very weird feeling if you're used to swinging with a cupped wrist; it feels like the club is 90 degrees shut at first.  Then from there, go to the range and focus on keeping those feels when hitting balls. You'll probably end up hitting a ton of hooks at first, so the key is to find the right compensations to go with the closed clubface (fight the tendency for your hands to compensate by opening the club face).   Overall, I was able to adjust pretty quickly.

 

Try playing around with the muscles you're using to drive the downswing too. The more I tried to incorporate my back as a main driver of the down swing, the more my hands could be passive which helps me maintain the flat/bowed wrist.  The more active my hands/forearms are from the top more I have a tendency to lose the flat wrist.

[ChipNRun]

On 11/24/2020 at 1:29 PM, Arthur_Vandelay said:

The more active my hands/forearms are from the top more I have a tendency to lose the flat wrist.

Related to this, extra hands/forearm "reach" at top beyond normal pivot can lead to looping the club during transition. Then, the body reacts to regain slipping balance, and a couple of things can happen: On days I do this, it's either a low pull, or pin high 20 yards right of the green.

[glk]

The motorcycle is typical and a lead hand motion.   If interested in a trail hand motion then think of the throwing motion where you keep the palm of the hand facing away from the target (good to do in the backswing also to help extend the wrist with the feel being associated with the p3 position or lead arm parallel) in the transition.
 

tyler has a short video on his pay site on this and here is the key position and where you would want the hand to angle.  This move is complimentary to lead wrist motorcycle and provides an alternative if the lead wrist thing isn’t working or one just wants a different focus.  When twisting the club at start of transition one can feel both motions.

 

 

[scooterhd2]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:55 AM, gentles said:

Been working with a coach and we have identified the club as being too open from transition into the downswing - we worked on flexing left wrist, keeping extension in the right wrist, slightly strengthening the grip. 

 

I know this is a common change that many players make to have more control of the clubface through impact zone, and it seems like there are a number of  different ways to get it.

 

For those who have successfully made this shift to a more closed clubface in transition and downswing, what were the feels, drills, technical changes etc that made the change stick for you? 

 

I battled this for a while. I tried all the feels and drills until I concluded that I am just terrible at closing the face in the downswing. I had worked so hard on taking the hands out, and unless I purposefully flipped, I just couldn't get it closed with my body rotation. So I'd compensate with a little OTT move to get the ball straight. WEAK. 

 

What worked for me is setting up neutral at impact, which means closed at address. BLEW MY MIND, even though I had noticed on random balls at the range that if I set up well closed I would pound it. 

 

I dug up the thread below (you can thank me later), which in my opinion is one of the best in golfwrx history that is actually readable (ie not 300 pages on Nippon shafts). The OP is great. I dont know what happened to him but I'd like to buy him a beer. Then Martin Chuck drops in knowledge and provides custom videos just for the topic. The only useful Shawn Clement video I've ever seen drops in on page 2. It's a game changer because your neutral setup is actually open at impact. 

 

 

Try this with your current grip. Setup position, then without a backswing, move to impact. if you were like me, then you are open city. Setup closed and you become neutral. 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by scooterhd2

[Scottbox]

Motorcycle move, what Monte said. Also, little 9-3 trail hand shots will give you a lot of clubface awareness and educate your right hand to stay bent and square the face up w/o flipping.

[glk]

47 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

Motorcycle move, what Monte said. Also, little 9-3 trail hand shots will give you a lot of clubface awareness and educate your right hand to stay bent and square the face up w/o flipping.

Like this while watching the mandalorian 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CH2_PN9BOHM/

 

[MK7Golf21]

I always had a little too much bow and closed club face at the top. I occasionally work on more open at the top and that actually helps me when I need more neutral ballflight.
 

In my normal swing, I can’t use a swinggyde on standard setting, it misses my wrist at top. If I do use it correctly I miss right and lose compression 

[nitram]

If you will shift your primary focus to the trail wrist position as @glk has shown you, the lead wrist will take care of itself.

[Scottbox]

3 hours ago, glk said:

Like this while watching the mandalorian 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CH2_PN9BOHM/

 

Yep! 

[me05501]

On 11/23/2020 at 5:47 PM, b.mattay said:

For me, proper wrist/clubface orientation occurs when I get my body/arm movements better. Getting my right humerus elevated off my chest earlier in the backswing and starting my downswing pressure shift earlier=less pulling of the handle forward and wrist extension. 

 

Quoting this mostly to say to the OP that it's probably something else causing your face not to square up through impact. You can put in the motorcycle move but it seems like it's more of a band aid than a cure. 

[getitdaily]

Without seeing what's getting you open, it's hard to say.

 

However, I like the over exaggeration method of fixes. Stand up and try to hit a hard draw/hook. You'll learn to get the face closed...or, more square.

[russc1597187869]

1.Stronger lead hand grip in essence “presets” FLEXION obviating the need for the much of the motorcycle drill ( Dec 27 , 2019 Golf Mag)

2.Shallow the shaft sufficiently in transition for passive supination later in the downswing (Como -McKenzie  demonstration).

 

 

 

[glk]

36 minutes ago, russc1597187869 said:

1.Stronger lead hand grip in essence “presets” FLEXION obviating the need for the much of the motorcycle drill ( Dec 27 , 2019 Golf Mag)

2.Shallow the shaft sufficiently in transition for passive supination later in the downswing (Como -McKenzie  demonstration).

 

 

 

True that a really strong grip can alleviate the need for a motorcycle move but only if paired with really good body rotation.     Motorcycle closes the face but also moves low point forward.   You lose the low point forward and so need another movement, ie rotation, to replace it.      

need either trial membership or join to see this video and another dozen or so on aspects of the motorcycle move.

https://golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/cant-i-just-strengthen-my-grip/

[russc1597187869]

 

Yes, stronger grips do generally require more torso rotation . 

Tyler Ferrell has written an excellent book for those golf nerds among us.But torso rotation is also at the heart of what he teaches . 

To the extent that the motorcycle move  in the downswing helps to avoid an open clubface, it does encourage torso rotation . 

 

Correct me if I am wrong , but Tyler was the first to popularize the motorcycle move, even though for decades , other instructors have been well aware  that very good players have flexed their lead wrist into the downswing  . But why has the motorcycle move in transition been rarely emphasized in the past .

Maybe because many modern players have stronger grips and already flex their lead wrist going back and then shallow the shaft sufficiently into transition .. 

Shallowing   the shaft  by the end of transition  allows more time for torso rotation and more time for supination  to square the clubface.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

If you have a bad grip and it’s causing swing faults, you need to change it.

 

If your grip is decent and you change it to mask a swing fault, you’re asking to get worse.

[Steele47]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

If you have a bad grip and it’s causing swing faults, you need to change it.

 

If your grip is decent and you change it to mask a swing fault, you’re asking to get worse.

 

 

Monte.  You're just like I remember ya.  Don't go changing..

[glk]

9 hours ago, russc1597187869 said:

 

Yes, stronger grips do generally require more torso rotation . 

Tyler Ferrell has written an excellent book for those golf nerds among us.But torso rotation is also at the heart of what he teaches . 

To the extent that the motorcycle move  in the downswing helps to avoid an open clubface, it does encourage torso rotation . 

 

Correct me if I am wrong , but Tyler was the first to popularize the motorcycle move, even though for decades , other instructors have been well aware  that very good players have flexed their lead wrist into the downswing  . But why has the motorcycle move in transition been rarely emphasized in the past .

Maybe because many modern players have stronger grips and already flex their lead wrist going back and then shallow the shaft sufficiently into transition .. 

Shallowing   the shaft  by the end of transition  allows more time for torso rotation and more time for supination  to square the clubface.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the golfing machine had a lot to do with it.   It only assigned extension to the trail wrist and radial/ulnar deviation to the lead wrist.   Though it talked about the flat lead wrist it assigned the grip orientation as the main determinant.

 

So Homer poorly understood the wrist movements and this was passed on.   I even recall threads here  with pages of back and forth over the trail wrist not radial deviating etc - probably just 5 years back. 
 

I never invested much time into tgm.  From what I gather about Homer I believe he would have embraced all the technology and research into better understanding of the motions in the swing that has happened in the last 15 years or so - even when it has refuted what was in the book - he appeared to understand his effort was a start and not the be all of tHe golf swing.

Maybe Tyler was the early advocate for the motorcycle.   Certainly has plenty of videos dating back to 2012ish and he certainly believes the motorcycle is one of the things that should be taught early in golf lessons.

I wouldn’t be surprised - his background as one of the first to analyze 3D swing graphs - he was the janitor at Greg rose club golf cause he couldn’t afford a membership while in college - great interview by betnard Sheridan with Tyler.    

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by glk

[hoselpalooza]

i'm not a pro and after so many layoffs the past couple of years i've been very inconsistent incorporating this move -- so take what i say with a grain of salt. that being said, there are a couple of things that clicked for me WRT closing the club face in transition. (i think closing in downswing vs transition/top of backswing are two different things so i'm just going to discuss transition/top of backswing.)

 

first thing that clicked was making a jon rahm-esque move toward the top of the backswing. or at least that's what it feels like to me. the key for this move is basically starting to close the club face (or flexing the lead wrist) before reaching the top of the backswing. i can get the lead wrist flexed like rahm or DJ if i start closing it early, if that makes sense. i can't (or don't know how to) go after it as much with this move so i prefer not to use it, but i do like the penetrating ball flight it creates. this might just be a result of the way i swing it though so YMMV.

 

the second thing, or what i thought was the "correct" move -- the motorcycle move after reaching the top of the backswing -- has been a bigger challenge for me. it's like trying to keep loose wrists with a firm grip. it just feels unnatural for me at this point.

 

anyway, one day earlier this summer i was practicing hitting balls out of thick-ish rough with a 4i and i was having very little success. just before giving up i made what felt like a lazy swing and hit a rocket. i tried it again and same thing. what i found was that my laziness helped me loosen the wrists at the top of the backswing, and for whatever reason, hitting out of the thick-ish rough made me unconsciously want to close the club face sooner to make good contact. it was a ball-striking revelation. 

 

however, 2020 weirdness prevented me from playing or hitting balls much after that and when i finally got out again i had lost the feeling. rather than try to recreate it on accident i'm working on it consciously now. to do this i've found some big mirrors with lots of room to make full swings on my little square of turf and am working on a sequence. e.g. after getting to the top of the backswing i'm flexing my lead wrist and then using my body to drive rotation back to the target (fluffy turf for irons and rubber tee for driver). still early days but so far it feels like i'm making progress. once i feel good with the sequence i plan to get on a launch monitor to see how it performs.

 

good luck!

[bcc624]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:55 AM, gentles said:

Been working with a coach and we have identified the club as being too open from transition into the downswing - we worked on flexing left wrist, keeping extension in the right wrist, slightly strengthening the grip. 

 

I know this is a common change that many players make to have more control of the clubface through impact zone, and it seems like there are a number of  different ways to get it.

 

For those who have successfully made this shift to a more closed clubface in transition and downswing, what were the feels, drills, technical changes etc that made the change stick for you? 

did you every find something that worked best for you? This is one of my issues, lead wrist goes into extension and logo of glove is pointed up through the beginning of the downswing. I spend time practicing it, but once I try a full swing, right back to open club face.

[Jbarretta]

I am starting to belive being closed/square at p6.5 is the holy grail of the golf swing   I put a side by side of me and spieth and I'm clearly setup for a flip even hitting practice golf whiffle balls.  I've been working on 4 things to fix this

 

1-focus on swinging 75% speed 

2- feel like I'm casting to get the clubhead on a shallower arc coming into the ball

3- using the tgm pressure points on the grip  specifically the bottom ring and pinkie finger of the lead head which makes it easier to turn lead hand knuckles down and bow which will cause the trail wrist to extend 

4- going with a strong lead hand and weaken the trail hand   with too strong of a trail hand the trail palm faces the sky too long into the downswing   I played a lot of baseball and with a baseball swing you strike the ball with the trail palm facing up  so a weaker trail hand helps that 

 

 

 

[slytown]

A slightly strong grip and releasing the club. If you don't release the club, you can't get supination. In combination with a change of direction, this is what creates lag in the downswing, not holding the angles.

[Rbsiedsc]

On 11/26/2020 at 8:50 AM, glk said:

Like this while watching the mandalorian 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CH2_PN9BOHM/

 

did this and a Clay ballard drill I saw today. really like the feels both bring. Thanks for sharing a long time ago 😛 

[Ri_Redneck]

I know I get the clubface square at impact, but I have no clue what it looks like at the top, nor do I care. It would just be something else for me to think about. I HAVE had people mention that I am quite closed at the top, but I dismiss it for the afore-mentioned reason. I was a chronic "lead wrist cupper" for a long time and spent quite a few years stopping it. This alone increased my consistency a TON. I may have lost a couple of MPH CHS, but I can live with that cause I'm compressing the ball far better now. My lead wrist "feels" like it just stays straight (not cupped OR bowed) now and that's the feel I look for in every swing!

 

BT