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Effect Of Flexing The Wrists For Different Positions In the Downswing


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I'm not exactly sure about the biomechanical effect of flexing your lead wrist during different positions in the downswing. The more I read about the flexing of the wrists the more confused I get.

 

For example:

 

1. How much does the club close when you flex your left wrist when its in radial deviation ?

2. How much does the club open when you retain that flex as it ulnar deviates.  As you ulnar deviate while retaining the flexed wrist , the shaft ends up with forward lean and starts approaching a little more from inside (ie. clubface more open to the ball-target line).

3. How much does the club open if you start losing that flex in the downswing (as the dynamic weight of the club reaches about 100 lbs force for a driver swing it will tend to straighten out your wrists if they are weak - like mine are).

 

If  1 > 2  , then it will show a net closed effect 

if  2>1   , then it could show a net opening effect.

If you start losing the flex during the downswing as ulnar deviation occurs , the clubface will start to open again but not before the clubshaft has developed more forward lean and started approaching the ball-target line a little more from the inside (ie. opening the clubface relative to ball target line). 

 

Further , on top of the  complications above , I  suspect it also depends how strong your grip is and how much your lead arm supinates. 

 

Seems like a bit of trial and error is involved until you find something that works.

 

Rather than experiment with different wrist flexing during the downswing , I'd rather try and  automate the closing of your clubface by using Dr Sasho MacKenzie's passive torque concept.

Edited by LASSIEGOHOME
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@Redjeep83, this is such an unnecessary comment.   if OP wants to learn more about biomechanics and the golf swing, i say go for it. if you don't have anything to contribute or to help OP, w

Honestly, your complicating this way more than needed. Happens a lot on golf forums, get these crazies that try to get super technical, don’t make any sense and shoot 80’s/90’s. I can already tell you

There are only 2 necessary points.   1.  It should happen somewhere. 2.  Only worry about it if you don’t do it already.

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Honestly, your complicating this way more than needed. Happens a lot on golf forums, get these crazies that try to get super technical, don’t make any sense and shoot 80’s/90’s. I can already tell you fall into that handicap, this isn’t the way to get better.

 

Your lead wrist is going to flex appropriately  just with the intent of delofting and hitting ball then divot.

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I can tell you that in the last 40 years (most of it as a single digit hcp), I have never once thought about the bio-mechanical effect of flexing my wrists.  Same for how much my clubface closes when it's in ulnar deviation.  Where do people get this crappola?

 

Get into a good address position.  Swing the club on some reasonable plane with a bit of a turn.  Hit the ball so it goes forward.  If your thoughts are more complicated than that - you'll end up like Mac O'Grady.

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1 hour ago, Socrates said:

I can tell you that in the last 40 years (most of it as a single digit hcp), I have never once thought about the bio-mechanical effect of flexing my wrists.  Same for how much my clubface closes when it's in ulnar deviation.  Where do people get this crappola?

 

Get into a good address position.  Swing the club on some reasonable plane with a bit of a turn.  Hit the ball so it goes forward.  If your thoughts are more complicated than that - you'll end up like Mac O'Grady.

 

We get it from the same people who go to their local mom and pop hardware store, grab a carpenter's hammer and ask at the service counter if there's an owners manual describing when and how ulnar deviation is used with the hammer.  🤓

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2 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Honestly, your complicating this way more than needed. Happens a lot on golf forums, get these crazies that try to get super technical, don’t make any sense and shoot 80’s/90’s. I can already tell you fall into that handicap, this isn’t the way to get better.

 

Your lead wrist is going to flex appropriately  just with the intent of delofting and hitting ball then divot.

 

I'm more interested in the biomechanics involved (but obviously this thread is not for you). Best that you stick on a thread which interests you personally rather than generalising about other people as being crazies. 

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2 hours ago, Socrates said:

I can tell you that in the last 40 years (most of it as a single digit hcp), I have never once thought about the bio-mechanical effect of flexing my wrists.  Same for how much my clubface closes when it's in ulnar deviation.  Where do people get this crappola?

 

Get into a good address position.  Swing the club on some reasonable plane with a bit of a turn.  Hit the ball so it goes forward.  If your thoughts are more complicated than that - you'll end up like Mac O'Grady.

What is a good address position?

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3 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Honestly, your complicating this way more than needed. Happens a lot on golf forums, get these crazies that try to get super technical, don’t make any sense and shoot 80’s/90’s. I can already tell you fall into that handicap, this isn’t the way to get better.

 

Your lead wrist is going to flex appropriately  just with the intent of delofting and hitting ball then divot.

Why would you intentionally deloft the club and take a divot?

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1 hour ago, golfsticks said:

 

We get it from the same people who go to their local mom and pop hardware store, grab a carpenter's hammer and ask at the service counter if there's an owners manual describing when and how ulnar deviation is used with the hammer.  🤓

 

You obviously didn't understand my opening post . If you flex your wrists while in radial deviation it closes the clubface (ie . from P4 - P5.5).  If you flex them with the notion that they will close the clubface at around P6-P6.5  it won't close the clubface but keep it open relative to the ball-target line.  So your attempt to flex the lead wrist thinking it will close the clubface will probably end up somewhere unexpected .

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2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

There are only 2 necessary points.

 

1.  It should happen somewhere.

2.  Only worry about it if you don’t do it already.

 

But if you flexed the lead wrist when its in radial deviation it has a different effect than when its in ulnar deviation . So if a golfer assumes that flexing the wrist closes the clubface , wouldn't that be the wrong thing to do when your lead wrist is in/approaching ulnar deviation ?

 

People can test it out for themselves :

 

1. Hold the club with just your left hand in a neutral grip , left arm extended and club vertical (ie. lead wrist in radial deviation) .

2. Flex the left wrist and watch the clubface close .

 

Now

3. Hold the club , left arm extended and club now almost horizontal (lead wrist in ulnar deviation).

4. Flex the left wrist and watch while the clubshaft angulates but the clubface does not close. In a real golf swing , that would mean more forward shaft lean and the clubface more open to the ball-target line  (a possible slice even if your club path was ideal for a straight shot).

 

 

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3 hours ago, Socrates said:

I can tell you that in the last 40 years (most of it as a single digit hcp), I have never once thought about the bio-mechanical effect of flexing my wrists.  Same for how much my clubface closes when it's in ulnar deviation.  Where do people get this crappola?

 

Get into a good address position.  Swing the club on some reasonable plane with a bit of a turn.  Hit the ball so it goes forward.  If your thoughts are more complicated than that - you'll end up like Mac O'Grady.

 

I don't think you'd sell many books on golf instruction but hey, if it works for you.

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24 minutes ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

 

But if you flexed the lead wrist when its in radial deviation it has a different effect than when its in ulnar deviation . So if a golfer assumes that flexing the wrist closes the clubface , wouldn't that be the wrong thing to do when your lead wrist is in/approaching ulnar deviation ?

 

People can test it out for themselves :

 

1. Hold the club with just your left hand in a neutral grip , left arm extended and club vertical (ie. lead wrist in radial deviation) .

2. Flex the left wrist and watch the clubface close .

 

Now

3. Hold the club , left arm extended and club now almost horizontal (lead wrist in ulnar deviation).

4. Flex the left wrist and watch while the clubshaft angulates but the clubface does not close. In a real golf swing , that would mean more forward shaft lean and the clubface more open to the ball-target line  (a possible slice even if your club path was ideal for a straight shot).

 

 

Elite golfers radial, ulnar, flex and extend in the swing at different times.   Flexing tends to limit radial and vice versa.  Flexing and ulnar deviation in early downswing tend to go together.  The point was, you need to flex at some point.  DJ a lot early, Woodland late.

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37 minutes ago, freowho said:

What is a good address position?

One that gives you a solid foundation to make a repetitive and good swing.  This guys seems to have it.

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24 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Elite golfers radial, ulnar, flex and extend in the swing at different times.   Flexing tends to limit radial and vice versa.  Flexing and ulnar deviation in early downswing tend to go together.  The point was, you need to flex at some point.  DJ a lot early, Woodland late.

 

But why does one have to flex , is it just to stop the lead wrist from extending when trying to get too much radial deviation or increased lag angle?

Edited by LASSIEGOHOME
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5 hours ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

I'm not exactly sure about the biomechanical effect of flexing your lead wrist during different positions in the downswing. The more I read about the flexing of the wrists the more confused I get.

 

For example:

 

1. How much does the club close when you flex your left wrist when its in radial deviation ?

2. How much does the club open when you retain that flex as it ulnar deviates.  As you ulnar deviate while retaining the flexed wrist , the shaft ends up with forward lean and starts approaching a little more from inside (ie. clubface more open to the ball-target line).

3. How much does the club open if you start losing that flex in the downswing (as the dynamic weight of the club reaches about 100 lbs force for a driver swing it will tend to straighten out your wrists if they are weak - like mine are).

 

If  1 > 2  , then it will show a net closed effect 

if  2>1   , then it could show a net opening effect.

If you start losing the flex during the downswing as ulnar deviation occurs , the clubface will start to open again but not before the clubshaft has developed more forward lean and started approaching the ball-target line a little more from the inside (ie. opening the clubface relative to ball target line). 

 

Further , on top of the  complications above , I  suspect it also depends how strong your grip is and how much your lead arm supinates. 

 

Seems like a bit of trial and error is involved until you find something that works.

 

Rather than experiment with different wrist flexing during the downswing , I'd rather try and  automate the closing of your clubface by using Dr Sasho MacKenzie's passive torque concept.

Ben Hogan said there should be NO overt manipulation of the hands in the downswing.  He might have been on to something. In 1953 he entered six events and won five, three of them majors.  He skipped the PGA.

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11 minutes ago, rgk5 said:

Ben Hogan said there should be NO overt manipulation of the hands in the downswing.  He might have been on to something. In 1953 he entered six events and won five, three of them majors.  He skipped the PGA.

As an end game, that is correct.  Problem is 99+% of golfers have the club face out of position because of poor wrist moments and better have some overt manipulation until proper movement becomes the norm.

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49 minutes ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

 

But why does one have to flex , is it just to stop the lead wrist from extending when trying to get too much radial deviation or increased lag angle?

Because if you don’t the club face will be too open, there will be too much loft at impact, both, or any number of other problems that result in a poor strike.

 

When the left arm decelerates and the club accelerates, the left wrist will start extending.  If it wasn’t flexed, it’s going to be a high slice....which is what most bad golfers do. 

Edited by MonteScheinblum
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Did he skip the PGA or did it conflict with Carnoustie?

23 minutes ago, rgk5 said:

Ben Hogan said there should be NO overt manipulation of the hands in the downswing.  He might have been on to something. In 1953 he entered six events and won five, three of them majors.  He skipped the PGA.

 


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11 minutes ago, cardoustie said:

Did he skip the PGA or did it conflict with Carnoustie?

 

 

Far as I ever understood, the PGA was too soon after the Open for him to get back (as it was by boat)

 

however, I don’t think there was any real concept of the Grand Slam then, if there was it may well have still been in its original meaning of the Open and Amateur championships of Great Britain and America 

current swing coached by wrxers..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wgXZab7vI4

 

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6 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Honestly, your complicating this way more than needed. Happens a lot on golf forums, get these crazies that try to get super technical, don’t make any sense and shoot 80’s/90’s. I can already tell you fall into that handicap, this isn’t the way to get better.

 

Your lead wrist is going to flex appropriately  just with the intent of delofting and hitting ball then divot.

 

@Redjeep83, this is such an unnecessary comment.

 

if OP wants to learn more about biomechanics and the golf swing, i say go for it. if you don't have anything to contribute or to help OP, why don't you keep your comments to yourself?

 

p.s. it's "you're", smart guy. you + are = you're. hope that's not complicating this way more than needed...

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3 hours ago, freowho said:

Why would you intentionally deloft the club and take a divot?


because that is the proper way to hit an iron, simple as that. 
 

The intention varies with the shot, the guys who hit the stinger best (Tiger, woodland) all mention a feeling of major deloft and keeping the back of the lead wrist facing target as long as possible. Opposite spectrum is the high shot, ball little more forward and throw the angle out more. 
 

Start going off ball flight and keep things simple 

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4 hours ago, Socrates said:

One that gives you a solid foundation to make a repetitive and good swing.  This guys seems to have it.

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Tiger's not a great driver of the ball so why would you want to copy this?

 

Dustin Johnson is a better driver of the ball so why don't we all have a 4 knuckle grip?

 

I agree the game can be overcomplicated but those advocates for how simple it is are just as delusional. 

 

"Get into a good address position."

image.jpeg.bcb78612c6369f1e8812bbae160ee073.jpeg

 

"Swing the club on some reasonable plane with a bit of a turn."

image.jpeg.80501ae91db6abe558a005e37acc9597.jpeg

 

 

"Where do people get this crappola?"

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:


because that is the proper way to hit an iron, simple as that. 
 

The intention varies with the shot, the guys who hit the stinger best (Tiger, woodland) all mention a feeling of major deloft and keeping the back of the lead wrist facing target as long as possible. Opposite spectrum is the high shot, ball little more forward and throw the angle out more. 
 

Start going off ball flight and keep things simple 

You're crazee if you think it's that simple.  Everything you say is up for debate. Nicklaus said he couldn't release the club early enough. Duval has talked about getting the clubhead to move first from the top. Malaska talks about the clubhead being the first thing that moves. Greg Norman would try and get through a whole practise session without taking a divot.

Sounds like you're talking about holding the angle which some coaches say equals a shank.

 

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50 minutes ago, freowho said:

You're crazee if you think it's that simple.  Everything you say is up for debate. Nicklaus said he couldn't release the club early enough. Duval has talked about getting the clubhead to move first from the top. Malaska talks about the clubhead being the first thing that moves. Greg Norman would try and get through a whole practise session without taking a divot.

Sounds like you're talking about holding the angle which some coaches say equals a shank.

 


Your right it’s not that simple but it’s best to keep things as simple as possible to improve
 

Your mixing things up, you can release the club from the top and still feel a major deloft to hit a stinger, in fact that’s how Tiger does it, probably woodland as well.

 

greg Norman was a picker, you can still be super shallow and have low point after the ball, in fact I think it’s ideal 

 


 

 

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4 hours ago, Redjeep83 said:

Start going off ball flight and keep things simple 

 

yes, completely agree. i think more people would benefit from a cause-and-effect approach to the golf swing with ball flight as the central source of truth.

 

if you can make the ball do what you want it to do, you have a good golf swing. 

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This thread was really about  the biomechanics of wrist flexing and not general golf instruction . As I mentioned in another thread I have a golf book with 47  different qualitative theories on the golf swing so pick whatever you think works for you (the book is titled 'The Secret Of Golf' by Georg Peper).

 

For me personally , I would rather look at the physics of what's going on first and then use whatever was the best model for replicating the correct physics.  

 

In this specific case I wanted to find out the reasoning behind golf instruction that promotes flexing of the lead wrist somewhere in the swing. I thought flexing was a means of closing the clubface , but Monte has mentioned the need to flex as per below and I suspect this is what he sees in many recreational golfer swings on some daily basis .

 

"Because if you don’t the club face will be too open, there will be too much loft at impact, both, or any number of other problems that result in a poor strike.

 

When the left arm decelerates and the club accelerates, the left wrist will start extending.  If it wasn’t flexed, it’s going to be a high slice....which is what most bad golfers do."

 

Although I respect Monte's opinion , if there is early release , this could cause the clubhead to peak too soon and allow it to overtake the hands and cause a premature extension of the lead wrist and a clubface flipping action before impact.  Also if the golfer stalls his pivot (or/and his lead arm abduction) , the left arm will probably decelerate and also allow the club to overtake the lead hand causing the wrist to extend too early (flipping action again before impact) . 

 

But if the golfer was driving his lead arm through impact (no stalling), and started flexing the wrist when it was more ulnar deviated  , wouldn't this end up with the clubface open into impact ?  Wouldn't the golfer have to square the clubface before impact by using extra rotation of his forearms (than if he hadn't flexed at all)?

 

I can appreciate that a golfer might  flex the lead wrist late in the backswing (when more in radial deviation) to  prevent excessive radial deviation at the top and some inadvertent cupping of the lead wrist . However, if he flexed early in the backswing when the lead wrist was in ulnar deviation , the club will end up angulated inside more of the ball-target line (not sure if that's a good thing or not).

 

But overall , it still seems that the biomechanics of the lead wrist when flexing has different effects on the orientation of clubshaft/clubface depending on where it's happening in the golf swing (ie. when the lead wrist is in radial vs ulnar deviation). 

 

Edited by LASSIEGOHOME
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1 hour ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

This thread was really about  the biomechanics of wrist flexing and not general golf instruction . As I mentioned in another thread I have a golf book with 47  different qualitative theories on the golf swing so pick whatever you think works for you (the book is titled 'The Secret Of Golf' by Georg Peper).

 

For me personally , I would rather look at the physics of what's going on first and then use whatever was the best model for replicating the correct physics.  

 

In this specific case I wanted to find out the reasoning behind golf instruction that promotes flexing of the lead wrist somewhere in the swing. I thought flexing was a means of closing the clubface , but Monte has mentioned the need to flex as per below and I suspect this is what he sees in many recreational golfer swings on some daily basis .

 

"Because if you don’t the club face will be too open, there will be too much loft at impact, both, or any number of other problems that result in a poor strike.

 

When the left arm decelerates and the club accelerates, the left wrist will start extending.  If it wasn’t flexed, it’s going to be a high slice....which is what most bad golfers do."

 

Although I respect Monte's opinion , if there is early release , this could cause the clubhead to peak too soon and allow it to overtake the hands and cause a premature extension of the lead wrist and a clubface flipping action before impact.  Also if the golfer stalls his pivot (or/and his lead arm abduction) , the left arm will probably decelerate and also allow the club to overtake the lead hand causing the wrist to extend too early (flipping action again before impact) . 

 

But if the golfer was driving his lead arm through impact (no stalling), and started flexing the wrist when it was more ulnar deviated  , wouldn't this end up with the clubface open into impact ?  Wouldn't the golfer have to square the clubface before impact by using extra rotation of his forearms (than if he hadn't flexed at all)?

 

I can appreciate that a golfer might  flex the lead wrist late in the backswing (when more in radial deviation) to  prevent excessive radial deviation at the top and some inadvertent cupping of the lead wrist . However, if he flexed early in the backswing when the lead wrist was in ulnar deviation , the club will end up angulated inside more of the ball-target line (not sure if that's a good thing or not).

 

But overall , it still seems that the biomechanics of the lead wrist when flexing has different effects on the orientation of clubshaft/clubface depending on where it's happening in the golf swing (ie. when the lead wrist is in radial vs ulnar deviation). 

 

 

If you think you can actively flex and extend your wrists during the golf swing, I’m confused why you wouldn’t just try it on the range and report back? 

Why not just film what you are attempting and confirm to yourself this flexing and extending, and what it does to the ball flight? Isn’t that the scientific method?

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31 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

If you think you can actively flex and extend your wrists during the golf swing, I’m confused why you wouldn’t just try it on the range and report back? 

Why not just film what you are attempting and confirm to yourself this flexing and extending, and what it does to the ball flight? Isn’t that the scientific method?

 

I'm not advocating actively flexing and extending the lead wrist, just pointing out the possible effects on clubshaft and clubface if you do it when in ulnar/radial deviation . If I was at the range , how would I measure how much I was flexing and extending the wrists and the instantaneous amount of radial and ulnar deviation? Also how would I know at what point in my swing (especially downswing) I was doing all these actions?

 

Although I might give it a go after lockdown and see what happens (as an experiment) .

Edited by LASSIEGOHOME
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6 minutes ago, LASSIEGOHOME said:

 

I'm not advocating actively flexing and extending the lead wrist, just pointing out the possible effects on clubshaft and clubface if you do it when in ulnar/radial deviation . If I was at the range , how would I measure how much I was flexing and extending the wrists and the instantaneous amount of radial and ulnar deviation? Also how would I know at what point in my swing (especially downswing) I was doing all these actions?

 

Youd only be measuring by comparing two swings from the same angle. If there’s no visible difference(my bet) then there’s nothing to measure.

if you’re saying you can’t consciously flex and extend, what possible difference does this make to your golf? 

current swing coached by wrxers..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wgXZab7vI4

 

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2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Youd only be measuring by comparing two swings from the same angle. If there’s no visible difference(my bet) then there’s nothing to measure.

if you’re saying you can’t consciously flex and extend, what possible difference does this make to your golf? 

 

This thread has nothing to do with my golf swing or whether one can or can't consciously flex/extend . It's a question regarding the biomechanics of the move and how it might affect the clubshaft/clubface.

 

For example , I've heard that flexing the lead wrist closes the clubface , is that true or false?

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