Why is Srixon always considered an underdog?

[Oh Hi Carl]

3 hours ago, kiwihacker said:

Thanks. I was close to getting the full set of ZX5 but hear such great things about the 7 that it seems worth trying them as part of a blended set. The other appeal of the 7s is that they are a degree weaker in the mid irons and 2 degrees weaker in the 9 iron and pitching wedge. A 46° pitching wedge is much closer to what I'm used to. The full 5-PW in the 5 series is basically equivalent to my current 4-9.

 

How do you find the pitching wedge in the 545 plays compared to your blades? At 44° it just seems a little strong for my liking. 

I really haven't noticed much difference.  My blade PW is 45 so I estimate that the 545 flies about 5 yards farther, but I don't mind taking something off the PWs to close the gap between them and my 51 degree 545 gap wedge.  Definitely try the 7s.  I really don't think I would notice much difference between the two versions of ZXs, and if the gapping is better for you that's a good reason to go with them.   

[Rapidcat]

12 hours ago, Strategery said:

 

No, it doesn't.

 

Re Srixon selling well in Canada particularly custom fit comment by @rgk5, check out @ 1min mark of this May 2018 video re Srixon 565: "this is our #1 best selling iron in the store" (obviously at that time). 

 

Just by co-incidence I watched this video 2 days ago and on reading this thread Ian Fraser's comment popped into my mind. Being a soft forging, apparently these clubs they like because they can dial in a spec easily for a customer.

[RoyalMustang]

As others have mentioned, this isn't unique to the golf industry. 

 

Who makes the best driver's cars that aren't luxury vehicle class?  Mazda.  How many people buy a Mazda CX9 over a Toyota Highlander?  Not that many.  Every auto enthusiast knows that a Miata is the ticket if you don't have the bucks for a Porsche Cayman, but everyone else thinks a Miata is a car for guys of a certain sexual persuasion.  Your local autocross will see the best times laid down in a Miata, not a GT3 or other far more expensive car. 

 

It is all marketing and brand recognition.  Not to mention that constantly making clubs with buzzy "stuff" and built-in distance sells a lot of clubs even if it doesn't result in a lower score. 

 

Disclaimer, I bought a Srixon 785 driver used from Global Golf on a lark. It was $180, in great shape, and had a CK Pro Orange 70TX shaft on it, which is the ideal spec for me and worth $180 the entire used.  I didn't expect to love it, but now my TS3 is up for sale. I find the Srixon more forgiving for my swing and just as long.  I had the confidence to clear a lake 270 yards out the other day with that driver: normally, I always lay up to the right with a hybrid as anything short or any sort of draw catches the water hazard, but having been swinging it so well, I thought "why not?".  If it fits your swing, buy it!  

[tannyhoban]

22 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

As others have mentioned, this isn't unique to the golf industry. 

 

Who makes the best driver's cars that aren't luxury vehicle class?  Mazda.  How many people buy a Mazda CX9 over a Toyota Highlander?  Not that many.  Every auto enthusiast knows that a Miata is the ticket if you don't have the bucks for a Porsche Cayman, but everyone else thinks a Miata is a car for guys of a certain sexual persuasion.  Your local autocross will see the best times laid down in a Miata, not a GT3 or other far more expensive car. 

 

It is all marketing and brand recognition.  Not to mention that constantly making clubs with buzzy "stuff" and built-in distance sells a lot of clubs even if it doesn't result in a lower score. 

 

Disclaimer, I bought a Srixon 785 driver used from Global Golf on a lark. It was $180, in great shape, and had a CK Pro Orange 70TX shaft on it, which is the ideal spec for me and worth $180 the entire used.  I didn't expect to love it, but now my TS3 is up for sale. I find the Srixon more forgiving for my swing and just as long.  I had the confidence to clear a lake 270 yards out the other day with that driver: normally, I always lay up to the right with a hybrid as anything short or any sort of draw catches the water hazard, but having been swinging it so well, I thought "why not?".  If it fits your swing, buy it!  

Wait a minute. A Miata?  Are you CPG???

[pinestreetgolf]

On 11/26/2020 at 4:20 PM, me05501 said:

It’s the money. 
 

If you remember 20-25 years ago, the driver market was dominated by Titleist (975D/983K etc) and Callaway (Hawkeye). Taylor Made decided they wanted to own the top position as most played driver on the PGA Tour.
 

The plan they came up with was to pay “tee up” money to anyone who would put the TM driver in his bag for the first round of each tournament. They didn’t care if the players were on staff or not as long as they used the TM driver on the day the club counts were conducted. 
 

The amount they paid wasn’t that significant but it was coincidentally about the same as the cost of traveling to and staying at the event. Players on the bubble could solve one of their major worries by choosing the TM driver and letting TM cover their weekly expenses. 
 

It worked better than they could ever have imagined. TM came to dominate driver selection on tour and poured a ton of R&D into driver innovation. 

 

You can trace Titleist’s domination of ball endorsements to a similar strategy. They have long provided free balls to promising Junior and Am players to build loyalty. When a player makes it to the Tour he very likely has a long history of using only Titleist balls. They can get away with paying less than other ball companies for a skinny endorsement contract that includes the ball, glove and maybe the hat. 

you have evidence of titleist giving away free balls to junior and amateur players?!

[Carolina Golfer 2]

On 11/26/2020 at 11:17 AM, Bubbtubbs said:

Advertising and retailer/demo day availability, mostly.

 

Wilson Staff suffers from this too.

The thing I bet most don’t know is Wilson Staff has one of the highest ratios of sales vs marketing spend in the industry and have seen the largest % of YOY sales than all of the top 4.   
 

So yes, while it is under the radar most. Wilson is pretty happy where it is. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

8 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Re Srixon selling well in Canada particularly custom fit comment by @rgk5, check out @ 1min mark of this May 2018 video re Srixon 565: "this is our #1 best selling iron in the store" (obviously at that time). 

 

Just by co-incidence I watched this video 2 days ago and on reading this thread Ian Fraser's comment popped into my mind. Being a soft forging, apparently these clubs they like because they can dial in a spec easily for a customer.

During my fitting there in June 2018 whicj resulted in the 565, Ian said—on the video—that they fit Srixon so much over anything else, that people probably think it’s on purpose, but it’s not.  

[me05501]

15 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

you have evidence of titleist giving away free balls to junior and amateur players?!

I’ve spoken with a multiple time winner on the PGA Tour, a Titleist staff player, who was being paid $75k/year for a Titleist hat/glove/ball deal. He was offered $200k/year to swap to another ball, either Bridgestone or Srixon, and declined it because Titleist had been sending him balls for “years” before he turned pro. 

[pinestreetgolf]

46 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I’ve spoken with a multiple time winner on the PGA Tour, a Titleist staff player, who was being paid $75k/year for a Titleist hat/glove/ball deal. He was offered $200k/year to swap to another ball, either Bridgestone or Srixon, and declined it because Titleist had been sending him balls for “years” before he turned pro. 

 

I don't know man, you're going to conclude that Titleist is blatantly/brazenly revoking the status of tons of junior and amateur players and risking a massive hit to their reputation because this guy wanted to brag about his ball deal offer?

 

That's kinda hard to believe.

[T Creer]

Keep them a “B” level price. They are an A+ product. Feel like I’m stealing when buying Srixon irons. 

[RoyalMustang]

18 hours ago, tannyhoban said:

Wait a minute. A Miata?  Are you CPG???

CPG? I don't follow

 

You should see how quickly a track-prepped Miata can rotate through an offset cone combination with the right driver at the wheel. They are scary fast.  It is always fun to work the shift with the "open" class running, which will have the bad-a** Miata and many of the best drivers.  My goal (If I ever get the time and money) is to race spec Miata someday.  FWIW, we have a Cayman and a 911, but those cars are far more skilled than their current owners!  Although the 911 is a tad wild at the track in a way that the mid-engined cars will never be.  

Edited November 29, 2020 by RoyalMustang

[tannyhoban]

24 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

CPG? I don't follow

 

You should see how quickly a track-prepped Miata can rotate through an offset cone combination with the right driver at the wheel. They are scary fast.  It is always fun to work the shift with the "open" class running, which will have the bad-a** Miata and many of the best drivers.  My goal (If I ever get the time and money) is to race spec Miata someday.  FWIW, we have a Cayman and a 911, but those cars are far more skilled than their current owners!  Although the 911 is a tad wild at the track in a way that the mid-engined cars will never be.  

Club Pro Guy has a Miata and as far as I know he is still anonymous. Thought maybe, just maybe - lol. 
 

My son has a Genesis Coupe, that's about as close to a performance car as I get. 
 

I too have the Z785 with a Hazardous Yellow 6.0 and love it.

 

It kicked a Ping G out of the bag. That G had conquered many contenders.

 

Just remembered- Around '78 my buddy's dad took me for a spin in his Porsche (don't remember the model) on local winding roads and then showed off agility between cones in a large (empty) lot. He owned a dealership here and raced them. 
 

That's as close as I've gotten. Enjoy!

 

[theboypinoy]

20 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

I don't know man, you're going to conclude that Titleist is blatantly/brazenly revoking the status of tons of junior and amateur players and risking a massive hit to their reputation because this guy wanted to brag about his ball deal offer?

 

That's kinda hard to believe.

 

It's a fairly common thing among elite amateurs and juniors to receive product from the manufacturers. Additionally, accepting free equipment doesn't automatically revoke amateur status.

[me05501]

21 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

I don't know man, you're going to conclude that Titleist is blatantly/brazenly revoking the status of tons of junior and amateur players and risking a massive hit to their reputation because this guy wanted to brag about his ball deal offer?

 

That's kinda hard to believe.

 

And you're going to call my story into question when you've never met me, the player, or his agent/my friend who was in charge of negotiating his endorsements? 

Maybe they give the balls to the high school golf program, and the program just "lends" them to the players. I don't know exactly how it works. 

[pinestreetgolf]

1 hour ago, theboypinoy said:

 

It's a fairly common thing among elite amateurs and juniors to receive product from the manufacturers. Additionally, accepting free equipment doesn't automatically revoke amateur status.

 

Under what circumstance would it not revoke amateur status?  Rule 2-2 is clear, and there is no applicable exception here in Rule 4.  The story, as told by the other poster, would also violated Rule 6-2 although it could be done in a way that doesn't violate 6-2 (though the story told by the other poster clearly violates it).

 

1 hour ago, me05501 said:

 

And you're going to call my story into question when you've never met me, the player, or his agent/my friend who was in charge of negotiating his endorsements? 

Maybe they give the balls to the high school golf program, and the program just "lends" them to the players. I don't know exactly how it works. 

 

Yes, I am.  Its not personal.  I don't know you at all.  There's no need to play the "I am so outraged you don't believe a PGA Tour player confided in me that he cheated the USGA rules for years!!"  Its not impossible, just extremely unlikely.

 

So you know the story, but you "don't know exactly how it works" when pressed for details.  That's why it isn't believable.

 

Do you have any idea how often we here "I know a Tour Player (my friend, btw) who said..." followed by something ridiculous on these boards?

 

I don't even believe he forewent $125,000 because he was sent balls as a kid, nevermind your contention that Titleist blatantly and brazenly violated the Rules of Amateur Status and this guy is just cool telling everyone they conspired to do it.

 

Edit -

 

You could just tell us who it is.  After all, he's obviously cool with you outing his violations of the Rules and you guys are tight, so why not?  We can hit him up on twitter and I'll eat my words.

Edited November 30, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[tannyhoban]

I don't sense the U.S. market is a major priority for some of the global brands. Sure Srixon will have a presence as will Bridgestone, but the push just isn't there.

 

Fine products all but here I only see new clubs from either at a very select few shops. Like maybe two.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

1 hour ago, tannyhoban said:

I don't sense the U.S. market is a major priority for some of the global brands. Sure Srixon will have a presence as will Bridgestone, but the push just isn't there.

 

Fine products all but here I only see new clubs from either at a very select few shops. Like maybe two.

I believe it also has something to do with the companies that are Japanese owned--see also Mizuno, Honma and Bridgestone for example, having a much more subtle and less aggressive approach to advertising and marketing than US Companies.

[Bad9]

On 11/27/2020 at 10:17 PM, Strategery said:

 

No, it doesn't.

 

Are you in the golf club business in Canada?

[getitdaily]

I think they made a marketing mistake when they went in the direction of srixon instead of simply furthering the Cleveland Golf brand in the US. Srixon was basically a new brand in the game, competing against entrenched stalwarts. I think they would have better recognition if they simply made the same clubs and stamped them with Cleveland instead of Srixon. 

[theboypinoy]

3 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Under what circumstance would it not revoke amateur status?  Rule 2-2 is clear, and there is no applicable exception here in Rule 4.  The story, as told by the other poster, would also violated Rule 6-2 although it could be done in a way that doesn't violate 6-2 (though the story told by the other poster clearly violates it).

 

 

Yes, I am.  Its not personal.  I don't know you at all.  There's no need to play the "I am so outraged you don't believe a PGA Tour player confided in me that he cheated the USGA rules for years!!"  Its not impossible, just extremely unlikely.

 

So you know the story, but you "don't know exactly how it works" when pressed for details.  That's why it isn't believable.

 

Do you have any idea how often we here "I know a Tour Player (my friend, btw) who said..." followed by something ridiculous on these boards?

 

I don't even believe he forewent $125,000 because he was sent balls as a kid, nevermind your contention that Titleist blatantly and brazenly violated the Rules of Amateur Status and this guy is just cool telling everyone they conspired to do it.

 

Edit -

 

You could just tell us who it is.  After all, he's obviously cool with you outing his violations of the Rules and you guys are tight, so why not?  We can hit him up on twitter and I'll eat my words.

 

 

Like I said, it doesn't automatically revoke status.

 

There's plenty of information about it.

 

For instance, this article shows how the elite amateur/juniors received equipment growing up: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/getting-free-stuff

 

If you take a gander at the official USGA website, they'll say the same thing: https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/amateur-status/amateur-status-faq-d8bb60a9.html . You're just technically not allowed to openly flaunt it, based on the wording.

 

It's a common and known thing for top juniors and amateurs to receive equipment, like I said. 

 

 

Quote

May I accept free equipment?

Yes. Even if you have golf skill or reputation, you may accept a reasonable amount of golf balls, golf clubs, clothing, shoes and other merchandise from a company or source dealing in these types of equipment (e.g., equipment manufacturer or golf shop). However, if you are considered to have golf skill or reputation, you must not advertise or promote the source of the equipment.

 

[J. Breeze]

Srixon is the ultimate "if you know, you know" type of brand. 

 

no fancy bells n whistles, average shelf appeal, minimal tour presence, but an absolute dream when it comes to feel and performance.  Criminally overlooked and underrated. 

[dmeeksDC]

47 minutes ago, J. Breeze said:

Srixon is the ultimate "if you know, you know" type of brand. 

 

no fancy bells n whistles, average shelf appeal, minimal tour presence, but an absolute dream when it comes to feel and performance.  Criminally overlooked and underrated. 

Yeah, they’re not an underdog to me. Golfers know Srixon. The drivers are not as well known, even though they are excellent, and that drives a lot of the public’s interest. Plus they don’t make wedges and putters except under the Cleveland brand. But the irons are getting more well known all the time. Srixon is kind of a weird name. Sounds like a drunk trying to say Nixon. But the clubs are great. 
 

 

[nichho]

On 11/26/2020 at 5:15 PM, elwhippy said:

Srixon is on the rise when it comes to hardware. The last 4-5 years have seen more irons and woods in play. Two of my regular partners hit Srixon irons and they are as good as any other premium brand. Problem is, especially at the low hcp end of the market, players only go with certain brands. Srixon is not seen as a match for Titleist or Mizuno. Add in the fact my local stores stock the balls but are loathe to even order in a Srixon club. They need a higher profile staffer than Shane, too many weeks in the middle of the field and not on TV. 

Mizuno were my go to manufacturer for longer than I can remember...........................Not any more.

 

I use the Soft Feel ball also.

 

[Bigjim1022]

6 hours ago, J. Breeze said:

Srixon is the ultimate "if you know, you know" type of brand. 

 

no fancy bells n whistles, average shelf appeal, minimal tour presence, but an absolute dream when it comes to feel and performance.  Criminally overlooked and underrated. 

This ^^^ easily the best irons I’ve owned in probably the last 10 years.  I bought the 785s this year because of the no frills look and they outperformed everything else.  And it’s a huge plus in my book that they don’t have a stupid looking screw anywhere on the club 😂

[driveandputtmachine]

On 11/28/2020 at 6:43 PM, pinestreetgolf said:

you have evidence of titleist giving away free balls to junior and amateur players?!

 I played college golf in the mid 90's and we had two choices, Titleist or Maxfli for our team golf balls we got for free.  The Mizuno rep fitted me for irons, and I played Callaway woods throughout college with Cleveland wedges.  All at no cost.   I did hear for awhile after I was out of college that Titleist did give golf balls to many junior golfers during the boom of the early Tiger years.  I imagine this is still the case, the USGA will allow 300 per event in money for expenses to be given and you can receive free golf balls, clubs, shoes, apparel, as long as you are not appearing as a golfer in advertisements and you cannot promote or advertise. 

 

Most of the club companies also used to have a program where former college golfers could get new clubs from them once every couple of years, and be able to get golf balls for free as well.   I know this for a FACT as I got them for many years.   I believe all of the companies have done away with this now too, or at least the ones I used to get stuff from have done away with it.   The other possibility is that I have aged out of the free equipment(I am 45 now).

[driveandputtmachine]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:35 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

 

I don't know man, you're going to conclude that Titleist is blatantly/brazenly revoking the status of tons of junior and amateur players and risking a massive hit to their reputation because this guy wanted to brag about his ball deal offer?

 

That's kinda hard to believe.

Amateur golfers may receive free golf balls and free equipment.   As someone who did receive free balls and equipment and KNOW that it is allowed, you are incorrect about revoking their amateur status because of it.

[dmeeksDC]

54 minutes ago, driveandputtmachine said:

Amateur golfers may receive free golf balls and free equipment.   As someone who did receive free balls and equipment and KNOW that it is allowed, you are incorrect about revoking their amateur status because of it.

Yes. The amateur rules are not nearly as restrictive as they used to be. College football players receive thousands of dollars in swag from bowl games — not only clothes but equipment and even jewelry. It is all allowed with no risk to amateur status, unless they are caught selling it, which also has happened. 

[puttingmatt]

I never consider any manufacturer of golf equipment an underdog.

They make ,you buy 

You like, you buy more 

Its consumerism.

[pinestreetgolf]

1 hour ago, driveandputtmachine said:

Amateur golfers may receive free golf balls and free equipment.   As someone who did receive free balls and equipment and KNOW that it is allowed, you are incorrect about revoking their amateur status because of it.

 

Receiving free equipment through a qualified University (or qualified High School) program is an exception to 2-2 (specifically, the exceptions are in 4-1 and 4-3).  "Sending balls" to some guy directly is not covered by an exception and absolutely would revoke amateur status.

 

There are a ton of exceptions to the Rules of Amateur Status, several of which you mention here (for example, the "Event" exception - except it has to be the Event, not Titleist, that sends the goods).  However, I asked what exception would apply and instead of a simple explanation got the internet-tough-guy "YOU CALLIN' ME A LIAR BRO" routine, which is a 100% accurate predictor the person making the statement is making it up, doesn't know the pro, and is just generally full of it.

 

So, to summarize:

 

1. Of course you can give balls to amateurs.  You just have to fit into one of the exceptions in Rule 4 such as a qualified academic team or qualified event expenses.

2. None of that was mentioned in the original post, and when asked to explain, a rant about internet truth ensued.

3. I concluded the person who posted it was full of it due to a non-answer to the exception question.

4. The main part of the statement I didn't believe was that a pro "he knows" didn't take $125,000 cold cash because Titleist sent him balls as a kid.  Give me a break.

Edited December 1, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[jholz]

Regardless of how they might actually receive it, high level amateurs in virtually every sport receive free equipment from manufacturers.

 

I'm sure there are rules governing what it can be and how it can be distributed in various sports, but amateur athletes get free gear whether that be golf balls or skis or basketball shoes. Much of the time, OEM's will carefully monitor what they give out and some of it may have to be returned.

 

In a lot of cases, you can get in trouble if you get caught selling stuff you've received on the open market. But, in certain sports it is assumed that high level ams will support themselves by selling excess product.