This is a topic that will irritate you, but make your handicap go down.

[Obee]

1 minute ago, Arn said:

Do u think broadcasters juice the Tour numbers? It’s kinda baffling when they Pull PW from 160+. Is it talent? Adrenaline? BS? Sometimes the clubs they say seem off to me. Yes I took your quote out of context.

 

It's a variety of things. Also, when they are playing certain Tour stops with very, very firm greens, you actually need both the height and spin that swinging at 90% gives you on a PW, for instance. I don't think @MonteScheinblumwill disagree, but he may. At that level, swinging relatively full at times with wedges is the play. It's just that it's very pin position and conditions and player dependent.

[Soloman1]

(Warning: humor alert!)

 

Quite a few old flatulence's end up hitting every iron about the same carry distance. 9-iron = 110, 7-iron = 112, 5-iron = 117. Then what do you do?

You end up with a bag full of woods and a putter.

 

I'm sneaking up on 68 years old.

Easiest club for me is driver - 235 carry is a reasonable drive, but I'll only miss maybe one fairway per round. 245 carry when full out.

PW (46 °) is only 105 carry max. I can hit it within 2 yards of 100 total, 3 out of five shots.

9-iron is 118 max.

 

I learned to play during my wasted youth at the range by hitting every iron to stakes. For example, 100 yard stake, I'd try to hit the stake with every iron. Same for 125 stake, 150 stake with every iron that I could hit farther than 150. (I'd play call shot and call exactly where I would carry it, then two bounces to hit the stake, etc...)

[ebrasmus21]

1 hour ago, ferrispgm said:

Been in that boat....there is a work around....if you hit 9 iron 150 normally on the course see what it does on the range...if it's 135 on the range then maybe you should try to hit it 125 on the range or whatever the dialed back yardage is....and that will give you 140 on the course.

That’s a great piece of advice. 

[mgoblue83]

52 minutes ago, Arn said:

Do u think broadcasters juice the Tour numbers? It’s kinda baffling when they Pull PW from 160+. Is it talent? Adrenaline? BS? Sometimes the clubs they say seem off to me. Yes I took your quote out of context.

 

You don't know the variables of the shot from the broadcast. For example downwind, downhill, flier lie, trying to stay below the hole, and playing to land short and bounce forward are just some of the reasons to take less club than the yardage would normally require. I promise you would rarely/never see a tour player hit PW from 160+ as a routine stock shot.

 

That said the ball speed and carry distances shown on Top Tracer are certainly juiced and/or not very accurate.

[Obee]

4 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

You don't know the variables of the shot from the broadcast. For example downwind, downhill, flier lie, trying to stay below the hole, and playing to land short and bounce forward are just some of the reasons to take less club than the yardage would normally require. I promise you would rarely/never see a tour player hit PW from 160+ as a routine stock shot.

 

That said the ball speed and carry distances shown on Top Tracer are certainly juiced and/or not very accurate.

 

Can you give me specific examples of why you think that? Not at all arguing, just that I never feel like they're way off due in large part to some of the things you listed above. For instance when they show BDC pulling 9-iron from 189, I completely believe it if it's warm, he's above the hole, and he's playing to land the ball 174 with 10 yards of forward pitch and then he's underneath the hole a few paces.

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Can you give me specific examples of why you think that? Not at all arguing, just that I never feel like they're way off due in large part to some of the things you listed above. For instance when they show BDC pulling 9-iron from 189, I completely believe it if it's warm, he's above the hole, and he's playing to land the ball 174 with 10 yards of forward pitch and then he's underneath the hole a few paces.

That is exactly the situation I described where they would hit less club than you would expect and might very well hit PW from 160+. My point was you won't see them hitting enormous PWs as a standard stock shot with a fairway lie, no wind, soft greens, no elevation changes, etc..

 

BDC is a completely different animal because his "9 iron" is the length of a 6 iron and the loft of a 7-8 iron. He's fun to watch though!

[MonteScheinblum]

21 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Can you give me specific examples of why you think that? Not at all arguing, just that I never feel like they're way off due in large part to some of the things you listed above. For instance when they show BDC pulling 9-iron from 189, I completely believe it if it's warm, he's above the hole, and he's playing to land the ball 174 with 10 yards of forward pitch and then he's underneath the hole a few paces.

Often....”We’re at the 220 yard par 3 7th and Brooks Koepka has a 7 iron.  Looks like he took a little off of it.”

 

He flies it pin high.  They pan back and it’s down hill and a tee box forward.  It was 200 playing 185.  Still a huge 3/4 seven iron, but makes more sense.

[Obee]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Often....”We’re at the 220 yard par 3 7th and Brooks Koepka has a 7 iron.  Looks like he took a little off of it.”

 

He flies it pin high.  They pan back and it’s down hill and a tee box forward.  It was 200 playing 185.  Still a huge 3/4 seven iron, but makes more sense.

Oh of course. Totally on the same page there. I mean when he mentioned that the top tracer numbers are off "juiced and/or not very accurate."

[YMark]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

Been in that boat....there is a work around....if you hit 9 iron 150 normally on the course see what it does on the range...if it's 135 on the range then maybe you should try to hit it 125 on the range or whatever the dialed back yardage is....and that will give you 140 on the course.

It might be worth it to get one of those miniature launch monitors.  That might help dial in wedge distances too. Any recommendations?  

[YMark]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

Been in that boat....there is a work around....if you hit 9 iron 150 normally on the course see what it does on the range...if it's 135 on the range then maybe you should try to hit it 125 on the range or whatever the dialed back yardage is....and that will give you 140 on the course.

Deleted duplicate post.  This forum still has its quirks.

Edited December 3, 2020 by YMark

[mgoblue83]

31 minutes ago, Obee said:

Oh of course. Totally on the same page there. I mean when he mentioned that the top tracer numbers are off "juiced and/or not very accurate."

Top Tracer is not really a launch monitor and is designed to enhance TV broadcasts, Ball speeds on Top Tracer tend to be inflated and the carry distance is calculated not measured. It's within the ball park on most shots but it's not something to make any conclusions about. It makes for entertaining TV but the PGA Tour still uses Trackman behind the scenes for official measurements. You can see them on the tee boxes in certain camera shots. Due to their contract with ProTracer we don't get to see the Trackman numbers on TV.

 

My best guess is that for most players the ball speed is 3-5mph too high. We don't really question it because the players are so fast anyway but when you see DJ throwing up 188 or Tiger throwing up 175 it's just not happening. 182-184 and 170-172 yes, 188 no. You can also see it on par 3 iron shots where guys are hitting 144 mph ball speed with 6 iron and a 200 yard shot. It doesn't quite add up.

 

[MikeW2]

This is a great thread and has me wondering about the mental side to the original question. I was always told/taught be aggressive through the ball which is something I think most of us here has heard in one form or another. I’m completely guessing here, but when we’re beginning do we really discern be aggressive from try to hit it as far as possible? This is something that you can get away with hitting driver but not helpful with a PW, but a lack of understanding of the advice leads to that mental approach just hit it far becoming ingrained?

[RagnarD]

15 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Have you changed your AoA with your driver?

No, it remained 6 to 7 degrees upward angle of attack, pretty close to optimum for carry given my swing speed. On a perfect drive with favorable wind and hard fairway I can get lucky with 260 or 270y, but given the high flight a headwind and soft fairway can cut it down to 225y total with zero roll.

I've also been a picker with irons, only 1 or 2 degree downward angle at most.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, RagnarD said:

No, it remained 6 to 7 degrees upward angle of attack, pretty close to optimum for carry given my swing speed. On a perfect drive with favorable wind and hard fairway I can get lucky with 260 or 270y, but given the high flight a headwind and soft fairway can cut it down to 225y total with zero roll.

I've also been a picker with irons, only 1 or 2 degree downward angle at most.

Hitting up 6/7 makes hitting it straight and solid very difficult.  Those optimal aoa have proven to be nefarious and you can achieve the optimal launch and spin with a proper fitting instead of manipulating your swing to  hit up that much.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

48 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Hitting up 6/7 makes hitting it straight and solid very difficult.  Those optimal aoa have proven to be nefarious and you can achieve the optimal launch and spin with a proper fitting instead of manipulating your swing to  hit up that much.

 

 

Exactly why I asked.

[cdfs]

Driver (12° loft) 220m (240y) carry at sea level at current weather conditions (around 5°C/41°F)

PW (48° loft) 100m (109y) carry, same conditions as above, full swing

 

Very interesting topic. Most of my wedges are actually full swings and yes, they are not as accurate as they should be. One thing that I realized with with partial wedges, especially with the PW, it seems I get more spin on them. Meaning, when I go with a full swing and PW on the green, there is usually quite an amount of roll, doing 3/4 with the PW into the same green usually is one hop and stop or even some back rolling. I always thought, more speed=more spin, but it seems I'm missing something here and would be curious if someone could explain this? However, it seems to be more than worth it practicing partial shots.

[DavePelz4]

It's much easier to hit a controlled 7 iron 150 yards as opposed to jumping on a 9 iron.  Can do both but way more consistent choking down a bit with a easier swing.

[glk]

 

 

I think one of the best examples of how good the pros are at speed control is this brief video of Rahm hitting 7i different distances.   

 

[nitram]

10 hours ago, MikeW2 said:

This is a great thread and has me wondering about the mental side to the original question. I was always told/taught be aggressive through the ball which is something I think most of us here has heard in one form or another. I’m completely guessing here, but when we’re beginning do we really discern be aggressive from try to hit it as far as possible? This is something that you can get away with hitting driver but not helpful with a PW, but a lack of understanding of the advice leads to that mental approach just hit it far becoming ingrained?

 

You should be aggressive through the ball whether with a driver or a 50 yard wedge. However there are levels of aggression that have to be learned. We've all heard teach them to swing for distance and develop speed and they can be taught to manage that for the other shots.

 

For the purpose of this thread it's about learning to throttle down, harnessing your speed and aggression. You still need a positive/aggressive strike, just with less effort or force. 

 

 

[DShepley]

4 hours ago, cdfs said:

Driver (12° loft) 220m (240y) carry at sea level at current weather conditions (around 5°C/41°F)

PW (48° loft) 100m (109y) carry, same conditions as above, full swing

 

Very interesting topic. Most of my wedges are actually full swings and yes, they are not as accurate as they should be. One thing that I realized with with partial wedges, especially with the PW, it seems I get more spin on them. Meaning, when I go with a full swing and PW on the green, there is usually quite an amount of roll, doing 3/4 with the PW into the same green usually is one hop and stop or even some back rolling. I always thought, more speed=more spin, but it seems I'm missing something here and would be curious if someone could explain this? However, it seems to be more than worth it practicing partial shots.

You are probably hitting the center of the face on 3/4 shots and hitting it thin when you swing hard.

[RagnarD]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Hitting up 6/7 makes hitting it straight and solid very difficult.  Those optimal aoa have proven to be nefarious and you can achieve the optimal launch and spin with a proper fitting instead of manipulating your swing to  hit up that much.

 

 

Upward aoa is what I've always done naturally on driver. I'm still getting over 2,000 backspin typically, and typically hit 6 to 9 fairways out of 13. I've had lessons and practice trying to get more downward aoa on irons though. (Too much early practice off mats can create bad habits). Last 2 yrs moved from 26hc to 14hc, mostly by eliminating shanks and reducing chunks. I will remind myself that my short irons don't need power, to better take advantage of opportunities shorter approaches provide. A year ago I could hit lots of greens from 130y in, but my 220y drives left my approach shots 160+ back and much tougher. Now with 250+y drives im getting the approach shot distances I wanted before, but too often miss these easier shots long and left. Next season I will try to have both working together and finally break 80.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, nitram said:

 

You should be aggressive through the ball whether with a driver or a 50 yard wedge. However there are levels of aggression that have to be learned. We've all heard teach them to swing for distance and develop speed and they can be taught to manage that for the other shots.

 

For the purpose of this thread it's about learning to throttle down, harnessing your speed and aggression. You still need a positive/aggressive strike, just with less effort or force. 

 

 

I like the word 'commitment' rather than aggression. That makes me feel like my max speed is post strike. 

[scott_Donald]

One thing this thread has me thinking - 

 

How many of the ones who don't have varying wedges control; play in non windy conditions normally?

 

I am Scottish from a links course I have to control flight - I actually play better into the wind than down wind, when its really windy(20mph +). 

[Schnee]

1 hour ago, scott_Donald said:

One thing this thread has me thinking - 

 

How many of the ones who don't have varying wedges control; play in non windy conditions normally?

 

I am Scottish from a links course I have to control flight - I actually play better into the wind than down wind, when its really windy(20mph +). 

I was atrocious at flighting the ball and playing in the wind until I played in Scotland in 2018. 10 days there forced me to learn it. Was never really exposed to wind like that in the Northeast US before. I used to struggle with windy conditions. Now I welcome it. 

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, Schnee said:

I was atrocious at flighting the ball and playing in the wind until I played in Scotland in 2018. 10 days there forced me to learn it. Was never really exposed to wind like that in the Northeast US before. I used to struggle with windy conditions. Now I welcome it. 

Those 120 yard 6 irons in Scotland really help your game.

[Obee]

53 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Those 120 yard 6 irons in Scotland really help your game.

 

And Bandon. Wow.

[bortass]

Well I remembered this thread today when I was getting a quick 9 in. I took a bit off my PW and hit a nice high shot, 97 yards, 3 feet from the hole. It's probably a major stroke of luck since I'm a 24 index. I plan to keep this concept in mind as I play going forward. thanks for bringing it up Monte.

[Socrates]

I hate this thread.  I find out that my 9 iron - Driver ratio is bad (145 - 265).  So that sucks.  I've been hitting my short irons too high and too far.  I've got to work on slowing my iron ball speed down and flighting my ball.  And it's still 4+ months to spring here and everything is locked down due to Covid.   And even if I could hit shots, I can't while I deal with Golfer's Elbow.  Another few pages of this thread and I'll be convinced I have to take up bowling.

 

You guys are killing me!!!!

[Ty_Webb]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Those 120 yard 6 irons in Scotland really help your game.

 

Especially effective if you want to widen your stance significantly. Play on the coast there for a few days and you can virtually do the splits!

[MonteScheinblum]

59 minutes ago, Socrates said:

I hate this thread.  I find out that my 9 iron - Driver ratio is bad (145 - 265).  So that sucks.  I've been hitting my short irons too high and too far.  I've got to work on slowing my iron ball speed down and flighting my ball.  And it's still 4+ months to spring here and everything is locked down due to Covid.   And even if I could hit shots, I can't while I deal with Golfer's Elbow.  Another few pages of this thread and I'll be convinced I have to take up bowling.

 

You guys are killing me!!!!

Probably from keeping your left arm straight.

 

Here’s what would be really disturbing for you.  We are playing in a scramble, you hit a nice 265 yard bomb into the middle of the fairway on a 500 yard par 5.  With one already in the fairway, I take a big cut and hit it a few steps into the right rough with 145 to a back pin.  You pure a PW and pose over it, as it lands behind the hole and one bounces in the back bunker.  I proceed to hit one 15 feet underneath the pin.  You ask me what I hit.

 

”8 iron”

 

When I say this scenario of 2 less clubs hit by me after my drive was significantly farther, has happened hundreds of times, I mean it with the over used word literally.

Edited December 4, 2020 by MonteScheinblum