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Do pros rely too much on their caddies?


jordan2240

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48 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Honestly, I just caught the tail-end of it, just in enough time to see the end of the conversation and the announcer say that he wasn't able to translate it, but it made me wonder what they were even discussing at all (assuming it had something to do with the shot) given it was a pitch from the fairway with a 3-shot lead.  But I've seen other instances (aka Bryson D.) on both the PGA and LPGA tours where some significant conversation takes place over what looks to be pretty obvious choices.  But I don't expect it to change - just wondered if anyone else felt as I did.

Club and left part of the green is my guess, reinforce a solid but conservative shot. Or double checking the caddie’s % if he won. 😉

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1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

.  But I've seen other instances (aka Bryson D.) on both the PGA and LPGA tours where some significant conversation takes place over what looks to be pretty obvious choices.  

 

Know that much of the player-caddie pre shot talking serves the function of improving the focus-on-the-upcoming-shot of the player.

You're absolutely right it's usually redundant commentary, but if it causes the player slow down a bit and not rush a shot, this can be helpful to good shot making, low scoring.

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2 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

Honestly, I just caught the tail-end of it, just in enough time to see the end of the conversation and the announcer say that he wasn't able to translate it, but it made me wonder what they were even discussing at all (assuming it had something to do with the shot) given it was a pitch from the fairway with a 3-shot lead.  But I've seen other instances (aka Bryson D.) on both the PGA and LPGA tours where some significant conversation takes place over what looks to be pretty obvious choices.  But I don't expect it to change - just wondered if anyone else felt as I did.

🤦‍♂️Come on man.  You didnt even watch it all?  I’m ocd to the max. But you may just have me beat.  

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8 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

So I was just watching the latest Euro tour event, and the guy in the lead (by 3 shots) had an easy pitch to the green on 18, but for some reason, found it necessary to consult with his caddie.  What the hell could they possibly have been discussing?  All he had to do was pitch it onto the middle of the green.  Likelihood he would 5-putt from anywhere on the green had to be nil.  To me, one of he quickest ways they could speed up the game is to allow rangefinders/gps and allow caddies to consult only on putts and chips.  I mean, it's just ridiculous to me that a pro golfer would need to consult with his caddie on a pitch to the last hole with a three shot lead.

 Rangefinders do not speed up play. They were used for a couple Canadian and web events a few years back and nothing changed with their use in pro golf.

 

 

Edited by Creedo77
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7 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Possibly, but they are very dependent on caddies for yardage, layout, and club selection now. 
 

I saw this Golf Films show on GC and they were interviewing Steve Williams. He said during a tournament on Sunday he would see TW getting more and more pumped up and hitting it farther and farther.
 

He would actually start to give TW “fake yardage”. Like tell him it was 155 yards to pin instead on 165. In one example, it was an approach shot over a green side bunker that, had it been short, would have left TW scrambling instead of a birdie opp.

 

This was on Sunday on the back nine of a close PGA Championship as I recall.

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Just watched on the re-broadcast.

 

He was down the hole and ready to step in and get to work right away when it was his turn. After he made his notes about his drive and started his discussion with the caddie on the shot at hand to the time he pulled the club was 24 seconds.  The whole time his caddie is basically agreeing with what Bezuidenhout is saying.  Just getting yardage, picking a club and target.  Pretty normal exchange and considering what was at stake, pretty quick and businesslike.  

 

I'd say it's a good example of how things can work efficiently, not the other way around, IMO, and the player was driving the bus in this particular case.

Edited by Hawkeye77
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2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just watched on the re-broadcast.

 

He was down the hole and ready to step in and get to work right away when it was his turn. After he made his notes about his drive and started his discussion with the caddie on the shot at hand to the time he pulled the club was 24 seconds.  The whole time his caddie is basically agreeing with what Bezuidenhout is saying.  Just getting yardage, picking a club and target.  Pretty normal exchange and considering what was at stake, pretty quick and businesslike.  

 

I'd say it's a good example of how things can work efficiently, not the other way around, IMO, and the player was driving the bus in this particular case.

I saw it as well, and I definitely overreacted with regards to that particular example.  But when I saw the tail end of the exchange earlier this morning, it reminded me of the number of times recently when I have seen much longer exchanges for what looked like routine shots.  So while I still contend that some pros rely too much on their caddies to the detriment of the game (and yes, it is a personal perception), the example I noted in the initial post was not one that I would normally take issue with.

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The shot into the 18th at Leopard Creek is not as "easy" as it looks with water surrounding the green.

 

Over the years there has been several big numbers on that hole.

 

I doubt any of us understands the pressure a pro is feeling.

 

It is like saying the 12th at Augusta is an easy hole because it is only a short iron. What's so hard about that?! 😂

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7 minutes ago, iBanesto said:

The shot into the 18th at Leopard Creek is not as "easy" as it looks with water surrounding the green.

 

Over the years there has been several big numbers on that hole.

 

I doubt any of us understands the pressure a pro is feeling.

 

It is like saying the 12th at Augusta is an easy hole because it is only a short iron. What's so hard about that?! 😂

Watching several play the last and that pin placement in those conditions was the treat the second time around. And I misremembered who hit in the water, but was still surprised when he dunked it, but he needed eagle and went for it. 
 

Euros still better at pace of play. Doesn’t matter to me but those who are bothered definitely have some targets on the PGA Tour. 

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Golf is their livelihood and they are playing for millions of dollars.  Caddies have to feed their families as well.  A stroke could mean the difference between making the cut and going home empty handed.  I would like to think that you would put forth your best effort at your job as well. 

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1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

Golf is their livelihood and they are playing for millions of dollars.  Caddies have to feed their families as well.  A stroke could mean the difference between making the cut and going home empty handed.  I would like to think that you would put forth your best effort at your job as well. 

I do 'retirement' as well as I possibly can.

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22 hours ago, MPAndreassi said:


The player is already 100% responsible for their shot. They can talk and strategize all they want, but it is solely the players responsibility to execute whatever the decision was that they made. Limiting what a caddy can do would be similar to limiting a coaching staff in any other sport. Sure the caddie isn’t the head coach, but he’s 

a position coach. 

Exactly, and blaming the caddy for failing to execute is a failure to take responsibility for your own mistake. 

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What bugs me is the player and caddie standing over the ball each with their yardage books in hand. The player looks at his yardage book, then he looks at the caddies yardage book then back at his own, then the caddies again. Don’t they work off the same yardage book?

 

Even worse are green books. Reading greens is supposed to be a golf skill, not left up to a computer survey.

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20 minutes ago, dalehead said:

What bugs me is the player and caddie standing over the ball each with their yardage books in hand. The player looks at his yardage book, then he looks at the caddies yardage book then back at his own, then the caddies again. Don’t they work off the same yardage book?

 

Even worse are green books. Reading greens is supposed to be a golf skill, not left up to a computer survey.

No they aren't.  The basis of the book is the same, but the notes in it can be completely different.  It's not just yardages.  There is info in there like what shot they hit the last few rounds or even years and what the results were.  Info about adjusted yardages if there is elevation change.  And so on...  There's a lot more in there than "it's 125 yards."

 

I agree, green reading books should be banned.  They didn't allow them at the Masters.  But even then, there is nothing preventing the caddie or the player from making notes about the green and the breaks.  For me they would be useless as I would have to break out the reading glasses just to see wtf I had written down.

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1 hour ago, dalehead said:

What bugs me is the player and caddie standing over the ball each with their yardage books in hand. The player looks at his yardage book, then he looks at the caddies yardage book then back at his own, then the caddies again. Don’t they work off the same yardage book?

 

Even worse are green books. Reading greens is supposed to be a golf skill, not left up to a computer survey.

No, both the player/caddie have their own books and may have different notes from practice rounds and past tournaments at that course.

 

I’ve been working for a player for 18 months. I have every single shot written down since I’ve been working for him, along what the wind was doing, and conditions of the course. When we go to a course we’ve been at already it’s a big advantage to look back at what we’ve had in situations where we might be unsure of what to hit off the tee or into a green that is firm or soft.

 

Greens books aren’t 100% accurate and people make too much of a big deal about them. 

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I found this article interesting.  Perhaps others will as well.  Doesn't settle any arguments, but I think it provides some interesting insight.  I probably read it in my copy of the mag when it first came out, but can't recall:

Undercover Tour Pro: What If We Had To Play Without Caddies? | Golf Digest

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Do pros rely too much on their caddies? No idea.  

 

1.  I'm not a pro 

2.  I'm not even an elite amateur

3.  Because of points 1 and 2 I don't believe I'm qualified to answer. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 1:26 PM, jordan2240 said:

Well, we had those moments and they had caddies (apparently not ones that were very good or that they listened to), but those are EXACTLY the types of moments I think make the game more interesting.  In Van de Velde's case, he's unknown without that blow-up, and he's seemed to have suffered no worse the wear for it.

One could argue losing the Open Championship on 18 is worse the wear for it...

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I think what is missing here is that the guy is in position to win a golf tournament. There is a lot of emotion that he is most likely trying to suppress and by going through his routine with his caddy he is normalizing the shot. The routine he followed for every shot before this one should be followed to stay in the mindset he needs to make the best swing.  Checking with the caddy is part of the deal here, its a comfort and confidence that confirms what he most likely already knows. The shot may be ordinary, but the circumstance is not. 

 

Nothing to see here, move on. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 7:43 AM, jordan2240 said:

So I was just watching the latest Euro tour event, and the guy in the lead (by 3 shots) had an easy pitch to the green on 18, but for some reason, found it necessary to consult with his caddie.  What the hell could they possibly have been discussing?  All he had to do was pitch it onto the middle of the green.  Likelihood he would 5-putt from anywhere on the green had to be nil.  To me, one of he quickest ways they could speed up the game is to allow rangefinders/gps and allow caddies to consult only on putts and chips.  I mean, it's just ridiculous to me that a pro golfer would need to consult with his caddie on a pitch to the last hole with a three shot lead.

Rangefinder go’s you say? How far to cover the front edge? Back edge? Backstop behind pin? How elevated is the green?or is it downhill? How much? Is this shot landing into the grain or down grain? What is the wind doing?

That is just a smattering of the conversation held on every shot that a rangefinder cannot answer.

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18 hours ago, jordan2240 said:

I found this article interesting.  Perhaps others will as well.  Doesn't settle any arguments, but I think it provides some interesting insight.  I probably read it in my copy of the mag when it first came out, but can't recall:

Undercover Tour Pro: What If We Had To Play Without Caddies? | Golf Digest


Maybe Spieth should fire his caddie abd be like,

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Rangefinders you say? How far to cover the front edge? Back edge? Backstop behind pin? How elevated is the green?or is it downhill? How much? Is this shot landing into the grain or down grain? What is the wind doing?

That is just a smattering of the conversation held on every shot that a rangefinder cannot answer.

 

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You know, I would sure like to have a caddie for a round in a tournament and decide for myself if people rely on them too much. If I ever play St. Andrews I'm sure as shooting going to rely on my caddie for everything but checking my blood pressure as I play the Road Hole. 

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