what does "forgiving" really mean?

[RoyalMustang]

I have tried a lot of clubs over the past few months, and I can't figure this out.  What is meant by "forgiving"?  I have played less forgiving clubs and more forgiving clubs (according to the spec at least) and while I do notice a difference in distance, I don't notice a difference in forgiveness.  With any of these clubs, a well-struck ball goes about where I want it to, and when I make a bad swing ,which usually results in a topped ball, a super huge divot, or a banana slice, no single club has yet to save me.  

 

In fact, the least "forgiving" of the bunch (typically player's cavity) feel, if anything, more on-line on slightly off-center strikes. The distance clubs just go further and thus further off-line.  

 

Typically though,  my misses are REALLY bad misses as noted above.  I skull a PW 190 yards, I hit my 4-iron super fat and it drops into the lake  140 yards away, or I swing far too impatiently and completely top the ball off of the tee, right into the creek ahead of the tee.  It doesn't matter what club I have; all of these shots are disasters.   I have never really thought "gee, I had a bit of toe miss on that 8-iron: had I had a more forgiving club, I would be 10 yards closer to the pin" as it isn't true. What gets me 10 yards closer to the pin is making a better swing.  Believe me, I have tried everything from blade to SGI over the past few months; there just isn't a band-aid for a bad swing (for me at least). 

 

Am I alone in thinking that "forgiving" doesn't really mean much? If I could buy a club that would eliminate really bad swings, I would do it in a heartbeat, but of course, each and every one of these issues is related to swing, not club.  

 

what is your take on "forgiving?  Or am I missing something here?  Or is "forgiving" a euphemism for something else entirely, such as "easy to get distance", "easy to generate loft" and that sort of thing?  If it is, then I would describe that as more of a "game enhancement" feature.

 

 

[bubbagump]

For the definition of forgiving, and what it is.....try a SLDR driver, then hit literally anything else, compare.    

 

Forgiveness to me at least, is about keeping those less than stellar strikes longer and straighter.  No club will save tops, shanks, or anything of that nature....but those a bit out on the toe, low, high etc....keeping them closer to the results of a well struck shot is what it is about.  

[cgasucks]

For me, forgiving in a club that loses the least % of ballspeed on off center hits and dispersion.  

[setter02]

5 minutes ago, bubbagump said:

For the definition of forgiving, and what it is.....try a SLDR driver, then hit literally anything else, compare.    

 

Forgiveness to me at least, is about keeping those less than stellar strikes longer and straighter.  No club will save tops, shanks, or anything of that nature....but those a bit out on the toe, low, high etc....keeping them closer to the results of a well struck shot is what it is about.  

 

More or less what I was going to say.  It's gaining that extra 5-7 yards of carry on a toe strike for me vs. a blade club.  It's a playable ball off the tee vs. 3 off the tee.  For me, that is playable forgiveness.

[pinestreetgolf]

36 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

I have tried a lot of clubs over the past few months, and I can't figure this out.  What is meant by "forgiving"?  I have played less forgiving clubs and more forgiving clubs (according to the spec at least) and while I do notice a difference in distance, I don't notice a difference in forgiveness.  With any of these clubs, a well-struck ball goes about where I want it to, and when I make a bad swing ,which usually results in a topped ball, a super huge divot, or a banana slice, no single club has yet to save me.  

 

In fact, the least "forgiving" of the bunch (typically player's cavity) feel, if anything, more on-line on slightly off-center strikes. The distance clubs just go further and thus further off-line.  

 

Typically though,  my misses are REALLY bad misses as noted above.  I skull a PW 190 yards, I hit my 4-iron super fat and it drops into the lake  140 yards away, or I swing far too impatiently and completely top the ball off of the tee, right into the creek ahead of the tee.  It doesn't matter what club I have; all of these shots are disasters.   I have never really thought "gee, I had a bit of toe miss on that 8-iron: had I had a more forgiving club, I would be 10 yards closer to the pin" as it isn't true. What gets me 10 yards closer to the pin is making a better swing.  Believe me, I have tried everything from blade to SGI over the past few months; there just isn't a band-aid for a bad swing (for me at least). 

 

Am I alone in thinking that "forgiving" doesn't really mean much? If I could buy a club that would eliminate really bad swings, I would do it in a heartbeat, but of course, each and every one of these issues is related to swing, not club.  

 

what is your take on "forgiving?  Or am I missing something here?  Or is "forgiving" a euphemism for something else entirely, such as "easy to get distance", "easy to generate loft" and that sort of thing?  If it is, then I would describe that as more of a "game enhancement" feature.

 

 

 

You are making the mistake a ton of golfers make.  You are thinking in black and white.  Its not forgiveness or a good swing. They are not mutually exclusive choices. Of course you can't "buy a club that can eliminate really bad swings".  You say "no single club has yet to save me".

 

Its #2, par 5, TPC Louisiana.  I'm in the right rough.  Its pseudo-competition (meaning competition but not a USGA or LGA event or anything) and I'm nervous.  I lay up with a 7 iron.  I basically cold shanked the ball.  It went up the right (I was aimed to the left layup area) and it hugged the cart path and treeline, going about 80% of my normal 7 iron distance.  Just an awful shot - thin, right going right.  When I got to the ball, the ball was just inside the out of bounds stakes by about an inch.  I hit a gap wedge on the green, two-putted for par, got some wind and turned in a scrambling 37.

 

Now, was that forgiveness?  Why was my ball an inch inside out of bounds?  What if I had been playing j40 instead of my trusty j40 DPCs? (<- I play the super-CB version of the famous j40s).  Is that one inch that kept me from a 6/7 instead of a 5 "forgiveness" ?  I mean, it happened on an awful shot, right?  So therefore forgiveness of the clubs didn't matter, right?  If i just put a good swing on it *every single time* then why would I need forgiveness?

 

Forgiveness is the space, the size varies with each player, between the awful swing and the OK result and the awful swing and the awful result.

 

Pia (the coach that works with Annika Sorenstam) has a good mental game exercise where after you hit a shot you call it "Great", "Good" or "Good Enough" - "Good Enough" can be some awful shots, but you can still make par from there.  Forgiveness is what gives you more "Good Enough" and less "Out of Bounds".

 

You are missing that forgiveness exists completely independent of your swing.  It means that the ball gains closer proximity to the hole than a club that is less forgiving.  It has to be defined in terms of itself (e.g. Asking the question "How red is that shade of red?" doesn't mean red doesn't exist, it means that as a concept it can only be compared to itself).  You start to notice you are turning in 40 instead of 43 because that one ball stayed where you could find it instead of five yards deeper in the woods.

 

See, you are not stopping and saying "whew, just inside the out of bounds, thank god for the forgiveness in this club" - you are focused on how the shot *looks* and not the result, and focusing on that instead of where the ball comes to rest is a really good way to shoot 100 forever.

 

If you try to get good at golf by thinking "all I have to do is make 72 good swings today" then you will have a tough time.  its like pushing on a rope, thinking like that.  You will make bad swings.  Forgiveness (if you are fit well, and the club tends to mitigate your miss) keeps your terrible shots Good Enough.  Forgiveness allows par on more horrific swings than other forgiveness choices.  It might be just 2% versus 0%, but its more.

 

IMO, of course.

Edited November 29, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[ChipNRun]

A few years back, Golf Digest interviewed golf club designers about characteristics of different classes of irons. (Sorry, I can't seem to google up the original article.)

 

Basically, forgiveness dealt with how helpful an iron was in helping salvage the ball flight of off-center hits. There was, however, a downside: players irons reward well-struck shots more than forgiving irons. Here were the rough distance dispersions from his company's research (had them written down in a notebook):

• Super Game Improvement (SGI): + 10 yards per shot
• Game Improvement (GI): + 7 yards per shot
• Players: + 3 yards per shot

A case study starts circa 2009 when I switched out irons for the first time in more than 10 years. Dumping 120-gram stiff shafts was one reason.

 

Anyway, I tried out irons with a forgiving reputation: Ping G10, plus Callaway second-wave Big Bertha and X20s. The G10 and BB proved to be a bust. These were too helpful, a SGI head plus high-launch shaft hit 7i on up as near pop-ups.

 

Not so with the X20s. These SGIs had mid-launch Uniflex shafts, got the ball up without ballooning the short irons. X20s were OK for two seasons, but my approaches ended up around the green. Not a lot of true birdie putts.

 

So, I switched to the X20 Tours, which I had also tested at the time. Results: my GIR went up +2 per round, but mishits ended up other than within 10 yards of green.  In that first season when I couldn't practice much, the switch ended up pretty much a wash for scoring.

 

It's a tradeoff: I know a couple of small-college golf alumni who once played scratch golf using blade irons. But 10 years after, they have a job , a wife and kids. They can't keep their swings blade-ready, so they found they could score better with GI irons.

[8602081]

Bigger sweet spot..

 

Miss hits are less penalized in distance..

 

More offset.. (easier to square the face on impact.. I think)

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by 8602081

[Fairway14]

If an oversize head promotes more mishits , I do not consider the large head to be "more forgiving" than a relatively small size head.

 

[pinestreetgolf]

 

23 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

If an oversize head promotes more mishits , I do not consider the large head to be "more forgiving" than a relatively small size head.

 

 

Totally agree.  Better to whiff completely than mishit it.

[tannyhoban]

I think Drivers and some fairway woods hide the mishit better.

 

Irons for me are a different matter. Most forgiving irons for me are the ones that I hit dead center most frequently. That requires a certain visual at setup. A larger iron head with wider sole doesn't work for me.

 

I managed to get over the Volkswagen on a stick look with drivers, not so with irons.
 

I've been through forgiving Pings, TM, Cobra, Callaway, Mizuno, Bridgestone, Srixon offerings through the years and they have inherent design features that cause me grief.

 

I have added 3 hybrid and and 4 utility to the bag, but 5-P I want a traditional look with those grooves aligned just so. 
 

 

[RoyalMustang]

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

You are making the mistake a ton of golfers make.  You are thinking in black and white.  Its not forgiveness or a good swing. They are not mutually exclusive choices. Of course you can't "buy a club that can eliminate really bad swings".  You say "no single club has yet to save me".

 

Its #2, par 5, TPC Louisiana.  I'm in the right rough.  Its pseudo-competition (meaning competition but not a USGA or LGA event or anything) and I'm nervous.  I lay up with a 7 iron.  I basically cold shanked the ball.  It went up the right (I was aimed to the left layup area) and it hugged the cart path and treeline, going about 80% of my normal 7 iron distance.  Just an awful shot - thin, right going right.  When I got to the ball, the ball was just inside the out of bounds stakes by about an inch.  I hit a gap wedge on the green, two-putted for par, got some wind and turned in a scrambling 37.

 

Now, was that forgiveness?  Why was my ball an inch inside out of bounds?  What if I had been playing j40 instead of my trusty j40 DPCs? (<- I play the super-CB version of the famous j40s).  Is that one inch that kept me from a 6/7 instead of a 5 "forgiveness" ?  I mean, it happened on an awful shot, right?  So therefore forgiveness of the clubs didn't matter, right?  If i just put a good swing on it *every single time* then why would I need forgiveness?

 

Forgiveness is the space, the size varies with each player, between the awful swing and the OK result and the awful swing and the awful result.

 

Pia (the coach that works with Annika Sorenstam) has a good mental game exercise where after you hit a shot you call it "Great", "Good" or "Good Enough" - "Good Enough" can be some awful shots, but you can still make par from there.  Forgiveness is what gives you more "Good Enough" and less "Out of Bounds".

 

You are missing that forgiveness exists completely independent of your swing.  It means that the ball gains closer proximity to the hole than a club that is less forgiving.  It has to be defined in terms of itself (e.g. Asking the question "How red is that shade of red?" doesn't mean red doesn't exist, it means that as a concept it can only be compared to itself).  You start to notice you are turning in 40 instead of 43 because that one ball stayed where you could find it instead of five yards deeper in the woods.

 

See, you are not stopping and saying "whew, just inside the out of bounds, thank god for the forgiveness in this club" - you are focused on how the shot *looks* and not the result, and focusing on that instead of where the ball comes to rest is a really good way to shoot 100 forever.

 

If you try to get good at golf by thinking "all I have to do is make 72 good swings today" then you will have a tough time.  its like pushing on a rope, thinking like that.  You will make bad swings.  Forgiveness (if you are fit well, and the club tends to mitigate your miss) keeps your terrible shots Good Enough.  Forgiveness allows par on more horrific swings than other forgiveness choices.  It might be just 2% versus 0%, but its more.

 

IMO, of course.

 

thanks-this is super detailed. 

 

One question for you though: let's assume my mishit isn't a shank or some other awful swing.  Lets say I simply wasn't patient and completed the top of my swing and hit off the back foot and thin as a result, trying to lay up on a par 5. Normal 7-iron distance is 175.  Now, if I am hitting a 7-iron that is more blade-like, I push the ball way right and may only hit it 150.  Insert said SGI iron here and the thin shot is less apparent; the ball still goes 170 and is now further offline. I have in effect magnified my error.  

 

So, in this instance, we are looking at forgiveness in a offline situation vs a distance situation.  when I am not patient, I miss BADLY right and extra distance is the last thing I need.  Usually, if the ball goes straight, it was a good to excellent swing.  If I missed thin but straight most of the time, I could see how extra forgiveness is my friend, but in my situation, it hasn't been.  It is for this reason that I only started playing my driver again (with some swing tweaks ingrained now); before, a wild shot was a penalty stroke with the driver vs. being somewhat playable with the 4-iron.  A ball that goes 300 yards but way offline is big trouble.  

 

I suppose that is why I think of forgiving as something that minimizes my errors (as you do) but not something that is the traditional definition of "forgiving" (ball goes further).  Is there such a thing as "ball goes straighter"?  

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

If an oversize head promotes more mishits , I do not consider the large head to be "more forgiving" than a relatively small size head.

 

 

Correct.

 

IF an oversize head promotes more mishits,,,,,,,,,, which you haven't come close to "proving".

[kiwihacker]

1 hour ago, RoyalMustang said:

I have tried a lot of clubs over the past few months, and I can't figure this out.  What is meant by "forgiving"?  I have played less forgiving clubs and more forgiving clubs (according to the spec at least) and while I do notice a difference in distance, I don't notice a difference in forgiveness.  With any of these clubs, a well-struck ball goes about where I want it to, and when I make a bad swing ,which usually results in a topped ball, a super huge divot, or a banana slice, no single club has yet to save me.  

 

In fact, the least "forgiving" of the bunch (typically player's cavity) feel, if anything, more on-line on slightly off-center strikes. The distance clubs just go further and thus further off-line.  

 

Typically though,  my misses are REALLY bad misses as noted above.  I skull a PW 190 yards, I hit my 4-iron super fat and it drops into the lake  140 yards away, or I swing far too impatiently and completely top the ball off of the tee, right into the creek ahead of the tee.  It doesn't matter what club I have; all of these shots are disasters.   I have never really thought "gee, I had a bit of toe miss on that 8-iron: had I had a more forgiving club, I would be 10 yards closer to the pin" as it isn't true. What gets me 10 yards closer to the pin is making a better swing.  Believe me, I have tried everything from blade to SGI over the past few months; there just isn't a band-aid for a bad swing (for me at least). 

 

Am I alone in thinking that "forgiving" doesn't really mean much? If I could buy a club that would eliminate really bad swings, I would do it in a heartbeat, but of course, each and every one of these issues is related to swing, not club.  

 

what is your take on "forgiving?  Or am I missing something here?  Or is "forgiving" a euphemism for something else entirely, such as "easy to get distance", "easy to generate loft" and that sort of thing?  If it is, then I would describe that as more of a "game enhancement" feature.

 

 

I know what you mean. I've played everything from MP33 blades to oversize chunky GI irons like the Ping G10-30 (not the more recent 400 series) and other clubs in between. If I hit either fat the results are equally bad. If I thin the blade it goes about as far as the GI club. I haven't found a world of difference. Nowhere near as much as the marketing hype and some discussion on these forums would suggest. For me I have settled on the 'tweener' club which still provides a lovely feel on well struck shots but helps a bit on less than stellar strikes. To me with irons it's more about confidence in the club in your hands. I guess another way of looking st it is I'm much more confident with a 20° hybrid in my hands than a 20° 3 iron. Is that forgiveness or just the different playing characteristics of a totally different club design, lighter graphite shaft etc. 

 

In terms of drivers I do feel that the latest offerings are more forgiving on off centre hits than the models from 10-15 years ago. Hit them out of the screws? Not much difference. Hit them off the toe? The modern driver is more likely to maintain reasonable distance compared to the older models. 

[Fairway14]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Correct.

 

IF an oversize head promotes more mishits,,,,,,,,,, which you haven't come close to "proving".

 

Here at Golfwrx Forum there seems to be plenty of posts from guys who have tried a variety of iron head sizes and post messages that they strike consistently better shots with the smaller head sizes.

 

[boggyman]

It’s the world in which we live. It’s all between the ears. Mishit  ANY iron and you WILL be penalized to some degree. Play what suits one’s eye and forget it. And IF your ball is with that one inch from out of bounds, it’s your lucky day, be it a driver or wedge shot. Forgiveness is totally overrated I say! 

Edited December 5, 2020 by boggyman

[pinestreetgolf]

6 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Here at Golfwrx Forum there seems to be plenty of posts from guys who have tried a variety of iron head sizes and post messages that they strike consistently better shots with the smaller head sizes.

 

 

That's not how logic works.  Even if we assume that's true, better hits with smaller heads doesn't mean mishits with larger heads.  You can't use the converse to prove the original hypothesis if the two do not have a causal effect e.g. "Hey, everyone in this room loves ice cream, so they probably hate cake".

[SugarLandGolfer]

The today’s golfer website did a comparison of most forgiving irons earlier this year and did decent job of it. Their categorization looked at carry drop of on mishit shots, with hybrid irons (Cleveland HB Turbo and others) being the most forgiving, and blades being the most punishing. Interestingly enough, some the hollow body players irons we almost more forgiving (less drop off) than the larger game improvement irons. 
 

I think one thing that is getting lost in the discussion is which irons some people play better vs which ones can be scientifically shown to have less drop off on less than perfect strikes. Confidence in the golf club can have a big impact on an individuals mechanics. A truly bad hit (severely open/closed club face, or coming over the top) isn’t going to get fixed with a more forgiving club. If you use the definition of least carry drop off, then game improvement and super game improvement irons do materially improve shots. With fatter soles, many also help in reducing fat shots which improves the strike itself. Whether you as an individual can’t get over how they look is irrelevant.

 

Edit: apparently this site doesn’t allow you to use reference material that might lead users to another website.

Edited November 29, 2020 by SugarLandGolfer

[Fairway14]

6 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

 Even if we assume that's true, better hits with smaller heads doesn't mean mishits with larger heads. 

 

You (or any player) may conduct your own test/experiment. For example, from a variety of lie types strike a dozen 6-iron shots with an over size iron design and a dozen shots with a relatively small head iron design.

If 8 out 12 are solid-quality strikes with the small head design, and 4 out of 12 are solid-quality strikes with the over size head design, then I believe the smaller head design is a "more forgiving" choice for that player.

[nsxguy]

23 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Here at Golfwrx Forum there seems to be plenty of posts from guys who have tried a variety of iron head sizes and post messages that they strike consistently better shots with the smaller head sizes.

 

 

"If an oversize head promotes more mishits , I do not consider the large head to be "more forgiving" than a relatively small size head."

 

My friend, you suggested the larger heads might promote mishits. What "they" have experienced doesn't support your (sup)position. That's why I highlighted "IF"

 

But as others sometimes do, you're moving the goalposts to prove(?) your point. 

 

But your observation is noted. 

 

Thanks. 👍

[pinestreetgolf]

13 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

You (or any player) may conduct your own test/experiment. For example, from a variety of lie types strike a dozen 6-iron shots with an over size iron design and a dozen shots with a relatively small head iron design.

If 8 out 12 are solid-quality strikes with the small head design, and 4 out of 12 are solid-quality strikes with the over size head design, then I believe the smaller head design is a "more forgiving" choice for that player.

 

Right, but I'm contending that is how bad golfers think.  The golfers that are always the ones who say "Man, if not for that shot on 16, I would have...."

 

12 shots.  9 great, 2 bad, 1 stroke-losing hazard.

 

12 shots.  12 mediocre strikes, off the ground, in the general direction of the green.

 

If you play golf to hit good shots, the first is "better".

 

If you play golf for score, you want a ton of OK shots not a whole lot of great shots with some stroke-losing awful shots in between, *especially* at the competitive amateur level where 70-71-74-74 can win.

 

The whole problem with the analysis on this site is in your post.  8 for 12 and 4 for 12 mean absolutely nothing.  If there are two OB shanks in the 8 for 12 and none in the 4 for 12, the 4 for 12 is better.

 

Each shot has a *degree* of good and bad, a spectrum from 0 to 100.  Great, Good, Good Enough, Bad.  Not Good or Bad.  Thinking "8 were good, 4 were bad" makes you bad at scoring.  Thinking "5 were perfect, 2 were really good, 2 were playable, 3 were completely out of the course" and knowing that is WAY WORSE than "1 perfect, 1 really good, 10 playable" is why people are tournament players and low caps or "if I just hadn't hit...." guys.

 

its not 8 out of 12 versus 4 out of 12.  Don't think that way, anyone reading this.  You're playing golf, not golf swing.

 

Forgiveness REALLY REALLY helps when you play Golf.  It doesn't really help if you're playing Golf Swing.

Edited November 29, 2020 by pinestreetgolf

[setter02]

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

 

Totally agree.  Better to whiff completely than mishit it.

 

And that is why he completely whiffs so much on here... 😆

[nsxguy]

16 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

You (or any player) may conduct your own test/experiment. For example, from a variety of lie types strike a dozen 6-iron shots with an over size iron design and a dozen shots with a relatively small head iron design.

If 8 out 12 are solid-quality strikes with the small head design, and 4 out of 12 are solid-quality strikes with the over size head design, then I believe the smaller head design is a "more forgiving" choice for that player.

 

C'mon guy. Don't you think just about every serious/frequent player has done this many times over their "careers" ?

 

I'm kinda a results oriented guy. Over 30+ years I've hit all sorts of iron types many different times. And many times hit at least 2 of the different types in the same session to try to account for day-to-day variances in my swing.

 

AFAIC the MY results are conclusive. 

 

 

[ChipNRun]

4 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

If an oversize head promotes more mishits , I do not consider the large head to be "more forgiving" than a relatively small size head.

 

Reminds me of a story from more than a decade ago. One of the golf magazines featured a 5-foot-2 LPGA player known for using fairly long shafts to pick up more distance. Also, she was an early adopter of one of the first 460 cm. head drivers, much larger than others of the time.

 

When asked her practice routine for her new driver, she said very short. She would only hit 6 driver practice shots a day. She said any more than that with such a large driver head messed up her alignment with the rest of her clubs. 

[LeoLeo99]

5 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

A few years back, Golf Digest interviewed golf club designers about characteristics of different classes of irons. (Sorry, I can't seem to google up the original article.)

 

Basically, forgiveness dealt with how helpful an iron was in helping salvage the ball flight of off-center hits. There was, however, a downside: players irons reward well-struck shots more than forgiving irons. Here were the rough distance dispersions from his company's research (had them written down in a notebook):

• Super Game Improvement (SGI): + 10 yards per shot
• Game Improvement (GI): + 7 yards per shot
• Players: + 3 yards per shot

A case study starts circa 2009 when I switched out irons for the first time in more than 10 years. Dumping 120-gram stiff shafts was one reason.

 

Anyway, I tried out irons with a forgiving reputation: Ping G10, plus Callaway second-wave Big Bertha and X20s. The G10 and BB proved to be a bust. These were too helpful, a SGI head plus high-launch shaft hit 7i on up as near pop-ups.

 

Not so with the X20s. These SGIs had mid-launch Uniflex shafts, got the ball up without ballooning the short irons. X20s were OK for two seasons, but my approaches ended up around the green. Not a lot of true birdie putts.

 

So, I switched to the X20 Tours, which I had also tested at the time. Results: my GIR went up +2 per round, but mishits ended up other than within 10 yards of green.  In that first season when I couldn't practice much, the switch ended up pretty much a wash for scoring.

 

It's a tradeoff: I know a couple of small-college golf alumni who once played scratch golf using blade irons. But 10 years after, they have a job , a wife and kids. They can't keep their swings blade-ready, so they found they could score better with GI irons.

That mostly matches my real life experience.  With players irons i might hit 6 greens a round with two of them really pure strikes leaving me kick in birdies.  With my g400 irons i might hit 12 greens and none inside 20 feet.  Distance control is better for me with players irons but i miss the middle a lot so pick my poison.  

 

I remember my first time using gi irons.  Hit an iron from 125 and hit it low and off the toe.  A real clanker. I was expecting it to land short of the green in a bunker.  Nope.  It hit the green.  Easy 2 putt par.  Thanks modern technology. 

[Valtiel]

Forgiveness is one of those catch all marketing terms that gets thrown around pretty haphazardly. It can me many different things based on what is actually being referred to, so here is a list of wood and iron forgiveness "categories" in order is my perception of impact and common to uncommon in terms of what is advertised as "forgiveness":

Woods:

• MOI. This is probably the most common measure of forgiveness. High MOI = less curvature on heel/toe strikes and less spin variation on high/low strikes. Forgiveness via straighter flight and tighter spin windows. PING makes their living here. 
• Variable face thickness tech. This is pretty exclusively forgiveness via less ball speed decrease from off center hits and generally benefits everyone. 
• Horizontal CG placement. This is specific forgiveness based on strike tendencies. Moving the CG in either direction will decrease strike induced curvature for those that miss on that side, but at the expense of the other side. Very player dependent, not often advertised as "forgiveness", but does play a factor for those that miss on one side of the club. 
• Vertical CG placement. This can sometimes be advertised as forgiveness based on the fact that many amateurs will favor either low or high strikes more consistently as their miss, thus moving CG to match those misses will produce better results in the same manner as the heel/toe CG adjustments, just with spin consistency being the outcome instead of curvature. 

As you can see it is not very black and white and should be fitted to the individual player to determine maximum forgiveness. A low spin player who strikes high and has a toe miss will benefit the most from a high MOI driver with a fade bias (CG shifted towards the toe) and medium vertical CG. That same formula would poison to a high spin player that misses low and heelside however, as they would need as low a CG as possible while maintaining higher MOI and CG shifted towards the heel. 

Irons:

• MOI again. I could use a little input on this one (@Stuart_G @Howard_Jones), but my understanding of MOI in terms of iron performance is less about gear effect curvature issues and more about stability and energy transfer through the ball on mishits. Like PING with their drivers, Titleist makes their living here with irons, with all the AP and T-series irons having much higher MOI than many of their competitors. 
• Sole Width. Maybe a little overlooked in the CG department, but this is something very important when it comes to irons and how they interact with the turf and provide forgiveness when it comes to slightly fat strikes. 
• Thin/unsupported face construction. Like the variable face thickness tech in drivers, thinner faced (either hollow or open cavity) irons produce higher ball speeds, but in this case often with center strikes as well as mishits. 
• Horizontal CG location. Unlike drivers, irons are often considered more or less forgiving based on how far they are able to push the CG away from the hosel. Maltby places a very high value on this with regards to forgiveness, and for the player that strikes more towards the toe this can be a valuable parameter.
• CG depth. The further back the CG is relative to the shaft plane, the more dynamic loft can be created at impact, and this can be considered a measure of forgiveness for people who struggle to get the ball airborne. Offset is a function of this as well since it shifts the entire head back relative to the shaft which "increases" CG depth. 
• Vertical CG location. Based on your strike location tendencies (high/low on the face), matching the vertical CG of your iron to that tendency can help produce more solid strikes and better performance. 

Again, much of this is a function of fitting as well with things like angle of attack, strike location, and preferred ball flight needing to be taken into account. Irons are also often much more subjective from a feel standpoint and more sensitive to lie angle adjustments, turf interaction, shape and offset etc etc. 

The nutshell summary would be that MOI is generally the standard measure of "general" forgiveness, with things like different face tech being universally helpful in woods and helpful to some people in irons. Everything else is subject to the individual and should be sussed out in testing and fitting. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Valtiel

[ILove2Golf123]

I think forgiving is subjective to a certain extent and what it means to one person may be different to another. It's all relative, but to me it means that the club performs in a way that it otherwise wouldn't on off center hits. 

[nitram]

I learned to play golf with Hogan Precision irons. Forgiveness was discovering PING.

[teedub21]

11 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

 

One question for you though: let's assume my mishit isn't a shank or some other awful swing.  Lets say I simply wasn't patient and completed the top of my swing and hit off the back foot and thin as a result, trying to lay up on a par 5. Normal 7-iron distance is 175.  Now, if I am hitting a 7-iron that is more blade-like, I push the ball way right and may only hit it 150.  Insert said SGI iron here and the thin shot is less apparent; the ball still goes 170 and is now further offline. I have in effect magnified my error.  

 

wild shot was a penalty stroke with the driver vs. being somewhat playable with the 4-iron.  A ball that goes 300 yards but way offline is big trouble.  

 

 

You admit to some serious swing issues, topping, chunking, etc but you hit a 7 iron 175 and talk of 300 yard drives?  Golf WRX is quite a place!

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Irons:

 

• MOI again. I could use a little input on this one (@Stuart_G @Howard_Jones), but my understand of MOI in terms of iron performance is less about gear effect curvature issues and more about stability and energy transfer through the ball on mishits. Like PING with their drivers, Titleist makes their living here with irons, with all the AP and T-series irons having much higher MOI than many of their competitors. 

 

Correct.   Gear effect is generally pretty negligible for irons since gear effect depends on the c.g. being far enough behind the impact point to create a big enough 'gear'.  The resulting twisting of the head on off center hits can effect both Ball speed and launch direction.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Stuart_G

[cgasucks]

19 hours ago, bubbagump said:

For the definition of forgiving, and what it is.....try a SLDR driver, then hit literally anything else, compare.    

 

Forgiveness to me at least, is about keeping those less than stellar strikes longer and straighter.  No club will save tops, shanks, or anything of that nature....but those a bit out on the toe, low, high etc....keeping them closer to the results of a well struck shot is what it is about.  

The SLDR is a Ping 400 Max compared to an old school persimmon driver.