Driver Setup for Negative/Neutral AoA

[PureDivots]

I did some searching and couldn't find quite what I was looking for. Wondering if the smart people here had thoughts on it. If you are someone who does not hit up on the ball with the driver what is a setup that tends to produce the most optimal numbers. Are you looking for a higher lofted low spin head paired with sort of a mid shaft? Maybe a higher launching head in a lower loft with low shaft?  My thought would be a low spin head in a higher loft with a mid shaft to get the ball up but attempt to keep spin down. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by DaltonSTL

[Stuart_G]

AoA is actually a pretty minor factor in choosing equipment.    The dynamic loft delivered is much more important with respect to what head model and static loft might be a good fit.

 

And if someone has a dynamic loft issue (too high resulting in a spin problem) then shaft weight, swing weight, and playing length are the specs that are likely to provide the best chance of helping the player with that type of problem.  (tee height and ball position can sometimes help as well).

 

Launch and spin is also not the best way to look at shaft selection.   Feel and consistency of the results is what should be used to choose a shaft.   And it's best to fit the shaft first, head second.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Honixx]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Launch and spin is also not the best way to look at shaft selection.   Feel and consistency of the results is what should be used to choose a shaft.   And it's best to fit the shaft first, head second.

Really? I would have thought the other way around.  Driver head weights and designs can vary wildly from one another and have significant impacts on how the same shaft performs.  I would consider the opposite in finding a driver head that provides you with the best ball speeds and then look to find a shaft that can deliver consistent, centred strikes and then utilize the movable weights and hosel setting to tune in preferred start lines and ball flights.

 

 

[Stuart_G]

23 minutes ago, Honixx said:

Really? I would have thought the other way around.  Driver head weights and designs can vary wildly from one another and have significant impacts on how the same shaft performs.  I would consider the opposite in finding a driver head that provides you with the best ball speeds and then look to find a shaft that can deliver consistent, centred strikes and then utilize the movable weights and hosel setting to tune in preferred start lines and ball flights.

 

 

 

Sorry but that's a bit of a backwards approach.   The head weight does play a part in how the shaft will perform but you shouldn't look at it as a variable in the head selection.   A good fit for shaft weight, playing length and swing weight is completely independent of the model head that is chosen.  Those are the factors that determine what the final head weight should be and therefore how the shaft will perform - not whatever the weight happens to be out of the factory.  

 

Those are also the key factors in determining whether or not you can get good center face contact and therefore the best ball speed.  Or how consistent one can get with the face impact and therefore how 'forgiving' the head might need to be.

 

Now different head models can have different BBGM - but that's pretty easy to adjust for with tip trim if it's even enough to make a noticeable difference in the feel of the shaft (which it usually is not).

 

Now there are some people for with the look of the head at address and even the sound at impact is an important part of the selection process.   Those are valid considerations and shouldn't be ignored during the early part of the fitting process.  But the final loft selection or the deciding between the heads that meet the aesthetic needs should wait until the end.

 

Face angle can be important too but thanks to the adjustable hosels, most heads can support a wide range of face angle needs by the player.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Stuart_G

[PureDivots]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

AoA is actually a pretty minor factor in choosing equipment.    The dynamic loft delivered is much more important with respect to what head model and static loft might be a good fit.

 

And if someone has a dynamic loft issue (too high resulting in a spin problem) then shaft weight, swing weight, and playing length are the specs that are likely to provide the best chance of helping the player with that type of problem.  (tee height and ball position can sometimes help as well).

 

Launch and spin is also not the best way to look at shaft selection.   Feel and consistency of the results is what should be used to choose a shaft.   And it's best to fit the shaft first, head second.

 I guess if I was to reword my question then is what to do when you have higher spin and lower launch.  If were talking more advanced than just simply shaft and head where do you go with swing weight, shaft weight and playing length. I guess I am just looking for some general watered down thoughts. Everyone does react differently to shafts and swings differently accordingly.  If want to put some numbers to it I have some old ones from a fitting. 14.4 Dynamic Loft, AoA -4.5 giving about 12 launch and 3200 spin.

[Stuart_G]

27 minutes ago, DaltonSTL said:

 I guess if I was to reword my question then is what to do when you have higher spin and lower launch.  If were talking more advanced than just simply shaft and head where do you go with swing weight, shaft weight and playing length. I guess I am just looking for some general watered down thoughts. Everyone does react differently to shafts and swings differently accordingly.  If want to put some numbers to it I have some old ones from a fitting. 14.4 Dynamic Loft, AoA -4.5 giving about 12 launch and 3200 spin.

 

The watered down version is that trial-and-error testing (whether by yourself or with a fitter) is really the only way to figure out what might work and what will not.  There are no other useful shortcuts.  The subjective aspect of how people react to equipment changes is just too unpredictable to make generalizations useful.

 

The first step to addressing a high spin problem on a driver is diagnosing the root cause.  By far the two most common ones are:

 

1) impact low on the face.  This needs to be checked and addressed before anything else.  Use foot powder spray or face impact tape to check the location and consistency of the impact.   Even a small amount below the head c.g. can add a lot of spin.    If this a problem - looking at things like playing length (shorter), shaft weight, and swing weight tend to be the most effective aspects to improve the face impact and consistency.

 

2) Dynamic loft delivered into impact (really spin loft  = dynamic loft - AoA).   This is really a swing issue - the amount and direction of shaft lean at impact or where the hands are relative to the ball at impact.   Now there are some equipment aspects that can help a little  but rarely can equipment choices actually 'fix' the problem.    A lower launching shaft stiffness profile can help a little - BUT only for certain swing types (later release) but changing the stiffness feel can also potentially cause other problems to creep into the swing - problems such as with dispersion, accuracy and shot shape control.   So it's usually best to pick the shaft stiffness feel that gives the most consistent results and just use stronger head lofts to try and help with the launch+spin.    Sometimes playing with head weight and shaft weight (typically heavier) can effect the release timing and dynamic loft delivered.  But it can also potentially effect other things as well such as club head speed and face control.   For some people, playing around with tee height and ball position can produce some improvement.

 

Once you've done as much as you can with those two things, that really only leaves the choice of head model - usually lower c.g. and lower MOI can reduce spin (if the impact location is good) but maybe at the expense of a loss of forgiveness.

 

Basically you need to do the trial=and=error testing to both judge how effective any particular 'solution' might be for you and your swing as well as what (if any) negative consequences might accompany that 'solution'.  Then balance the two to find the best middle ground.

 

A bit more direction on how to play around with: playing length, shaft weight and swing weight can be found in Howard's self-fitting guide:

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Stuart_G

[pinhigh27]

You can find a head that spins way less than the TS3. Titleist stuff is usually very spinny IMO

 

Its pretty weird your dynamic loft is 14.4 when youre hitting 5 down. 

[Hack Daddy]

6 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

You can find a head that spins way less than the TS3. Titleist stuff is usually very spinny IMO

 

Its pretty weird your dynamic loft is 14.4 when youre hitting 5 down. 

 

It's like his hands/wrists are on the way up, amd arms/body on the way down...

 

I... Guess...

[Golfrnut]

1 minute ago, Hack Daddy said:

 

It's like his hands/wrists are on the way up, amd arms/body on the way down...

 

I... Guess...

would have to know 3D.  Face/path mismatch can easily show that. High face impact can show that, etc. 

[PureDivots]

2 minutes ago, Hack Daddy said:

 

It's like his hands/wrists are on the way up, amd arms/body on the way down...

 

I... Guess...

 

9 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

You can find a head that spins way less than the TS3. Titleist stuff is usually very spinny IMO

 

Its pretty weird your dynamic loft is 14.4 when youre hitting 5 down. 

Just pulled those numbers from a fitting on Trackman about 2 years ago, during a rough period in the ole swing.  At that point it was with a G400LST and Tensei PO. Not sure how numbers correlate, beyond my knowledge.

[Stuart_G]

Just now, DaltonSTL said:

 

Just pulled those numbers from a fitting on Trackman about 2 years ago, during a rough period in the ole swing.  At that point it was with a G400LST and Tensei PO. Not sure how numbers correlate, beyond my knowledge.

 

Any opportunity to get more up-to-date numbers?

[PureDivots]

2 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

would have to know 3D.  Face/path mismatch can easily show that. High face impact can show that, etc. 

Club Path-7.0deg

 

Face Angle-3.2deg

 

Face To Path3.8deg

 

Spin Axis7.1deg

[PureDivots]

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Any opportunity to get more up-to-date numbers?

Not at the moment holding out for a fitting till the spring, once new stuff comes out. Just kicking the tires on possibly making a change in the mean time. Those numbers are about as bad as it gets. Its less dramatic now days.

[pinhigh27]

39 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

would have to know 3D.  Face/path mismatch can easily show that. High face impact can show that, etc. 

high face impact isn’t 3200 spin 

[Golfrnut]

3 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

high face impact isn’t 3200 spin 

 

It absolutely can be if it’s heel side. 

[Golfrnut]

4 hours ago, DaltonSTL said:

Club Path-7.0deg

 

Face Angle-3.2deg

 

Face To Path3.8deg

 

Spin Axis7.1deg

 

is that club path = -7?

[PureDivots]

3 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

 

is that club path = -7?

Yes, barf bag not included. 

[Golfrnut]

13 minutes ago, DaltonSTL said:

Yes, barf bag not included. 

lol. It is what it is, not here to judge or diagnose that.  The leftward path with the face open to the path would be your end result though which explains the numbers. That is assuming center face contact though so things like a heel strike could actually mean the face is a little more open and you contact the heel side which would skew the launch monitor numbers. Getting in the weeds, but doppler monitors can’t see you actual face angle, it calculates a number based on start direction of the ball. Essentially your swing direction has shifted to the left which would explain the downward strike. Club face being open to the path gives you a higher dynamic/spin loft number, which is where the extra spin comes from, assuming the strike is in the correct spot on the face. An equipment change probably won’t help you out a lot there, directly...could indirectly cause you the change your swing and alter those numbers you have...but that’s a crap shoot really as there is no direct way to answer that because you are always going to be the biggest variable in all this if that makes sense. 

[PureDivots]

10 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

lol. It is what it is, not here to judge or diagnose that.  The leftward path with the face open to the path would be your end result though which explains the numbers. That is assuming center face contact though so things like a heel strike could actually mean the face is a little more open and you contact the heel side which would skew the launch monitor numbers. Getting in the weeds, but doppler monitors can’t see you actual face angle, it calculates a number based on start direction of the ball. Essentially your swing direction has shifted to the left which would explain the downward strike. Club face being open to the path gives you a higher dynamic/spin loft number, which is where the extra spin comes from, assuming the strike is in the correct spot on the face. An equipment change probably won’t help you out a lot there, directly...could indirectly cause you the change your swing and alter those numbers you have...but that’s a crap shoot really as there is no direct way to answer that because you are always going to be the biggest variable in all this if that makes sense. 

As I mentioned earlier that was a dark time for me, crawled out of that pit, but would bet my AoA is still downward. Really curious what the the thought would be in a vacuum where someone is swinging perfectly neutral but downward. 

[Valtiel]

Stuart gave all the solid info and Golfrnut nailed the swing path and face angle contributions there. 

I honestly think that this is exactly why the "Negative driver AoA = higher spin" myth has persisted for so long, because for the use amateurs, a negative AoA with a driver is almost always the product of a steep, over the top delivery. And that comes with an open face delivering more dynamic loft and often a heel miss, two things that will jack your spin right up. Neutralizing your delivery and face to path relationship is what you'll need to do to get spin under control. I disagree with the above comment about the TS3 and spin, it is a VERY low CG head with medium MOI and is capable of very low spin. 

[Golfrnut]

7 minutes ago, DaltonSTL said:

As I mentioned earlier that was a dark time for me, crawled out of that pit, but would bet my AoA is still downward. Really curious what the the thought would be in a vacuum where someone is swinging perfectly neutral but downward. 

It would essentially drag the launch angle downwards. As a result, you need a higher lofted driver to bring the launch angle up. A byproduct of that is creating more spin.  Or alternatively, you try and purposely alter the impact location to be higher on the face to make use of the buldge/roll of the driver face to help raise the launch angle while using the gear effect to keep spin down. There is a point of diminishing returns though as too high and ball speed starts to drop. 

[Stuart_G]

 

4 hours ago, Golfrnut said:

It would essentially drag the launch angle downwards. As a result, you need a higher lofted driver to bring the launch angle up.

 

Not discounting your advice - just expanding on it.

 

We can never really look at AoA alone.  There are some common tendencies but they aren't hard and fast rules so it's not a good idea to make assumptions about how the dynamic loft changes as the AoA changes.   Both the dynamic loft and the AoA are a byproduct of two separate arcs of the swing - the hand arc and the club head arc - and many forget the contribution of the hand arc.   So there are several possible permutations of what can be happening at impact depending on when impact happens relative to those two arcs.

 

Also it's good to point out that the optimal launch angle isn't independent of AoA.  So while it certainly can lower the launch angle for any given amount of spin or spin loft,  you don't really have to get the launch angle all the way back up to where it might have been ideal for a more neutral or upward AoA.   So spin will creep up some but not as much as some might think.

 

But it still comes back to the idea that there is only so much the equipment can do to help out what is essentially a swing problem - although that's not the same as saying all downward AoA is problematic.  In many cases -1* or even -2* can still give very good results.  It's important to look at all the numbers instead of being overly focused on just AoA.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Stuart_G

[phizzy30]

All of you guys have very good posts and insight.  I would just like to add one thing that's not equipment related.  Having a negative AoA beyond -1* with driver is never a good thing IMO.  The best AoA for driver seems to be neutral or +1 to +2 degrees for optimal launch/spin and distance numbers from the trackman numbers I have seen for myself.  There is also a chart floating on the net that shows the numbers for -1, neutral and +1 AoA for driver.  The +1 showed the least amount of spin, most carry distance and optimal launch. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by phizzy30