Was "position-based" instruction always counter-productive?

[glk]

Scott Lynn and Dr. Kwon are two that I try to follow as much as possible - Scott has more stuff out on youtube where he is working with someone (he has several on Be Better Golf probably since he is at Cal State Fullerton and close by), Dr. Kwon has instagram and not much that I can find on youtube - both give seminars and certification courses which you can attend for a fee.     Pretty much these two are state of the art GRF.      Dr. Kwon's model is can often be seen in video.      Scott is director of research for Swing Catalyst and he has worked with tons of tour pros and other good players and long drive guys - he really opened my eyes to the amount of variability in general in golf - Matt Kuchar is a real outlier for instance where he has only 40 some % percent pressure on his lead foot at impact with driver and is the only Tour Pro that Scott has measured that has a force sequence other than horizontal/rotation/vertical - Kuch is rotation/horizontal/vertical (these are peaks).    He's had Kyle Berkshire on his force plates - needless to say Kyle creates a tremendous amount of vertical force and Matt Wolff who actually broke a force plate during a session.     Heard Scott say that GRF and force plates are the next Trackman - he says back in 2010 when at seminars etc they ask who had trackman and a few hands went up but now LM's are pretty much everywhere - he says it is similar now with force plate technology and that he expects in the coming decade we'll see them showing up on more and more lesson tees (they are expensive relative to just the pressure mats).

 

Here is one BBG session from Scott's garage in SoCal.

 

Matt Wolff

Kyle Bershire

 

[Nard_S]

 Agree with others that position based golf is probably better and more useful than ever. AMG is a spot on great example.What positions cannot teach is the firings of muscle groups, their amplitudes and the multitasking involved. The 3D breakdown of body parts and their degrees of relational angles and rotations can demystify the swing quite a bit. This opens a clearer path to doing things in ways that are a lot more correct. 

[ChipNRun]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

Top of the swing is P4, so maybe that is your issue lol

Yes, P4 was problem point.

[mikpga]

The P-System simply allows the ability to measure...

[MrHateCoffee]

23 hours ago, glk said:

Scott Lynn and Dr. Kwon are two that I try to follow as much as possible - Scott has more stuff out on youtube where he is working with someone (he has several on Be Better Golf probably since he is at Cal State Fullerton and close by), Dr. Kwon has instagram and not much that I can find on youtube - both give seminars and certification courses which you can attend for a fee.     Pretty much these two are state of the art GRF.      Dr. Kwon's model is can often be seen in video.      Scott is director of research for Swing Catalyst and he has worked with tons of tour pros and other good players and long drive guys - he really opened my eyes to the amount of variability in general in golf - Matt Kuchar is a real outlier for instance where he has only 40 some % percent pressure on his lead foot at impact with driver and is the only Tour Pro that Scott has measured that has a force sequence other than horizontal/rotation/vertical - Kuch is rotation/horizontal/vertical (these are peaks).    He's had Kyle Berkshire on his force plates - needless to say Kyle creates a tremendous amount of vertical force and Matt Wolff who actually broke a force plate during a session.     Heard Scott say that GRF and force plates are the next Trackman - he says back in 2010 when at seminars etc they ask who had trackman and a few hands went up but now LM's are pretty much everywhere - he says it is similar now with force plate technology and that he expects in the coming decade we'll see them showing up on more and more lesson tees (they are expensive relative to just the pressure mats).

 

Here is one BBG session from Scott's garage in SoCal.

 

Matt Wolff

Kyle Bershire

 

 

 

This is very interesting.  How can the weekend golfer who cannot afford force plates make best use of this information?

[glk]

52 minutes ago, MrHateCoffee said:

 

 

This is very interesting.  How can the weekend golfer who cannot afford force plates make best use of this information?

Simple way is to find an instructor who has been trained on and has a force plate.    Otherwise mike Addams has a way to estimate via body measurements and a few motions 

https://golf.com/instruction/the-lower-body-secret-to-20-more-yards/

 

to learn more one can take swing catalyst level 1 certification for free and if interested further their level 2 for $80.   I have taken level 1

 

Swing catalyst learning center has the certification, more videos,  plus they have webinars which a few are free and other are $5.      Be better golf did about 3 or 4 videos with Scott Lynn from his garage and those are worth a watch too.

 

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, MrHateCoffee said:

 

 

This is very interesting.  How can the weekend golfer who cannot afford force plates make best use of this information?

I recently purchased the pressure insoles from Salted - got them from Amazon for $100 on sale - and if you couple them with instruction, I think they can be useful. You and your instructor can discuss your pressure trace and then you can use the insoles to ensure that you're practicing what you discussed.

[MK7Golf21]

19 hours ago, glk said:

Simple way is to find an instructor who has been trained on and has a force plate.    Otherwise mike Addams has a way to estimate via body measurements and a few motions 

https://golf.com/instruction/the-lower-body-secret-to-20-more-yards/

 

to learn more one can take swing catalyst level 1 certification for free and if interested further their level 2 for $80.   I have taken level 1

 

Swing catalyst learning center has the certification, more videos,  plus they have webinars which a few are free and other are $5.      Be better golf did about 3 or 4 videos with Scott Lynn from his garage and those are worth a watch too.

 

years ago, probably like 2013 I was working with an instructor who wanted me to work on attack angle, he had a trackman and we used that. A week later I wanted to hit balls on a trackman to see if my numbers had changed so I found a practice facility that would let you use one for a fee during a practice session. Well this place also had every piece of technology you could imagine at the time and was all included to use, force plates, k vest, video recording of your swing etc. Was probably better suited for an instructor to take a student to.
 

Anyway, I played around on all the stuff not really knowing wtf I was doing, lol, but this was kind of interesting when I was playing on the force plates I was trying to get my trace more linear. I had and still have no idea if that’s optimal but I thought it was a good idea to try because I was hitting some pushes as a miss. I was able to do it and looking at the video that is syc’d up it fixed a few things. I didn’t right tilt too much, it put the club more in front of me and I really stayed down in the shot. That got me pretty excited like it was money well spent.

You hear these guys in the forum talk about working so hard on not right tilting too much and I was able to fix it by accident playing on force plates for 30 mins. IMO, they are a useful tool. Haven’t used one since unfortunately 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Redjeep83

[Liveonce]

I would say the topic I’m seeing most frequently as of late is releasing the club from the top of the swing and not holding lag. It seems everyone is piling on to that topic or playing catch-up

[me05501]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:51 AM, Nard_S said:

 Agree with others that position based golf is probably better and more useful than ever. AMG is a spot on great example.What positions cannot teach is the firings of muscle groups, their amplitudes and the multitasking involved. The 3D breakdown of body parts and their degrees of relational angles and rotations can demystify the swing quite a bit. This opens a clearer path to doing things in ways that are a lot more correct. 

 

Right. But what AMG seems to be teaching a lot of people is that if you get the pressures right (or muscles firing, weight shift, whatever words you want to use) then many of the positions take care of themselves. Obviously this assumes a good setup, grip, and other fundamentals that any coach would work on. 

 

They and many others are also talking more about the club's center of mass and how that relates to plane.

 

These are all things that couldn't be measured before the tech was available. Some players and coaches figured out the importance of these things along the way, but maybe struggled to explain to others what they were feeling or doing. I think that's where the obsession with comparing different positions originated. 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by me05501

[bladehunter]

59 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Right. But what AMG seems to be teaching a lot of people is that if you get the pressures right (or muscles firing, weight shift, whatever words you want to use) then many of the positions take care of themselves. Obviously this assumes a good setup, grip, and other fundamentals that any coach would work on. 

 

They and many others are also talking more about the club's center of mass and how that relates to plane.

 

These are all things that couldn't be measured before the tech was available. Some players and coaches figured out the importance of these things along the way, but maybe struggled to explain to others what they were feeling or doing. I think that's where the obsession with comparing different positions originated. 

 

Op.  Don’t worry.  I have the constant stream of consciousness curse too.  So you’re not alone.
 

 Nor are you alone in believing that the positions teachings are not the best way for natural athletes to learn this game.  Why ? ( my opinion ).  Because there is no one way that’s correct. The swing is a dance of concessions depending on soooooooo many things. Body type. Flexibility , height , weight , gender , and on and on.  
 

All we have to do to prove that is analyze 10 random tour pros swings.  You’ll find many iron clad similarities at impact.  You won’t likely find 10 in a row that abide by many P laws in every section.  Sure. You can cherry pick.  But just at random you can find many ways to swing the club.  Each difference is a trade off for one persons game compared to another’s.  

[Nard_S]

52 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Right. But what AMG seems to be teaching a lot of people is that if you get the pressures right (or muscles firing, weight shift, whatever words you want to use) then many of the positions take care of themselves. Obviously this assumes a good setup, grip, and other fundamentals that any coach would work on. 

 

They and many others are also talking more about the club's center of mass and how that relates to plane.

 

These are all things that couldn't be measured before the tech was available. Some players and coaches figured out the importance of these things along the way, but maybe struggled to explain to others what they were feeling or doing. I think that's where the obsession with comparing different positions originated. 

 

AMG happens to be highly pre-occupied with positions. They elaborate and flesh out the why & how but they do advocate down to exact range of degrees what "P" positions most Pro's hit and what positions Joe's mostly miss.

 

I've learned a ton from their stuff. I'm a machinist, work in geometries, planes and multi-axis movements all day. So those guys speak my language. I'm easily a full club up on distance paying attention to what they say and understand the teachings of other gurus a lot better. 

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

AMG happens to be highly pre-occupied with positions. They elaborate and flesh out the why & how but they do advocate down to exact range of degrees what "P" positions most Pro's hit and what positions Joe's mostly miss.

 

I've learned a ton from their stuff. I'm a machinist, work in geometries, planes and multi-axis movements all day. So those guys speak my language. I'm easily a full club up on distance paying attention to what they say and understand the teachings of other gurus a lot better. 

 

That's very interesting. While reading "ME's" prior post I was thinking that if all the positions are hit correctly the muscles will learn to meld them together with tempo and power to produce a very "correct" and athletic swing.

 

Blade has a point as well though in that if you have a very athletic beginner it MAY be better allowing the athleticism to take the lead in developing a great swing. Dustin Johnson, I think, is a great example of this. Not sure any teacher would teach DJ's swing to a rank beginner.

 

Blade also mention 10 random pros. Well, I guess it depends on who they are but it appears to me that most of the younger guys, with some (expected ?) obvious exceptions have almost the same swing.

 

Justin Thomas, Rory, Schauffele and a lot of others look pretty much the same from behind. Club is "on plane" pretty much throughout the swing. No wiggles or wobbles or kinks in the swing. 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by nsxguy

[Barfolomew]

Never believed in the position based approach.  I think it's distracting to focus on positions when you should be focused on more important things.  Plus we all swing so different that we're not supposed to hit the same spots... same thing goes for all sports.  Yes there are things similar in different swings so keep it more general then those specific positions... but Im self taught and a feel player and never relied on back swing positions ever...

 

focus more on what the club face is doing at impact and manipulating that as long as swing is comfy, effective and repeatable.

[MK7Golf21]

Look no further than arguably greatest player ever. Most instructors would be all over this guy had they not known who he was.
 

Across the line at the top

 

Some pretty severe EE and stalled rotation at impact.

 

he could also throw a long iron way up in the air. Want to look pretty or play?

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

That's very interesting. While reading "ME's" prior post I was thinking that if all the positions are hit correctly the muscles will learn to meld them together with tempo and power to produce a very "correct" and athletic swing.

 

Blade has a point as well though in that if you have a very athletic beginner it MAY be better allowing the athleticism to take the lead in developing a great swing. Dustin Johnson, I think, is a great example of this. Not sure any teacher would teach DJ's swing to a rank beginner.

 

Blade also mention 10 random pros. Well, I guess it depends on who they are but it appear to me that most of the younger guys, with some (expected ?) obvious exceptions have almost the same swing.

 

Justin Thomas, Rory, Schauffele and a lot of others look pretty much the same from behind. Club is "on plane" pretty much throughout the swing. No wiggles or wobbles or kinks in the swing. 

Positions matter but how positions are arrived matter as much.

I'm not against a more organic pursuit of swing. Great rhythm & tempo is woefully under appreciated these days, no? It's not a fluke that the vast majority of sub 5 players began the game in youth. I'm aware of few guys here (Blade for one) who started as adults and became "good". Truth is the other 99% will never be like that without major intervention (like me). Most of that is due to plasticity of athletic skill in youth but a lot of it is also having a completely false perception on how high level swings truly work. Or how they are even taught. "Golf My Way" is great but how I interpreted it was c.r.a.p. awful, lol. I'm a near Luddite on gear but I'm all in on 3D analysis of the swing and greater truths behind the better ones.

[bladehunter]

11 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Positions matter but how positions are arrived matter as much.

I'm not against a more organic pursuit of swing. Great rhythm & tempo is woefully under appreciated these days, no? It's not a fluke that the vast majority of sub 5 players began the game in youth. I'm aware of few guys here (Blade for one) who started as adults and became "good". Truth is the other 99% will never be like that without major intervention (like me). Most of that is due to plasticity of athletic skill in youth but a lot of it is also having a completely false perception on how high level swings truly work. Or how they are even taught. "Golf My Way" is great but how I interpreted it was c.r.a.p. awful, lol. I'm a near Luddite on gear but I'm all in on 3D analysis of the swing and greater truths behind the better ones.

Yea.  I’m online with you mostly.  I use info from all over.  I don’t mean to pretend that I was born hitting a ball.  I’m just visual.  I can mimic very  easily.  Even if it’s feel vs real.  I’ve watched hours upon hours of tiger and jack.  Early tiger .  As in across the line tiger.  
 

By that I mean , i pay attention to “ positions “.   But not in a stop motion sort of way.  I have to digest Them in a proper tempo and rhythm way.  As a whole.  Rhythm Trumps all in my opinion.   To me a proper backswing is it .... key .... the downswing will do itself if you get that right.   I  Don’t now , I just don’t have patience for making it more complicated than that. But I’m open minded at the same time.  I just fear rabbit holes as I’ve been down a few.  And playing  golf swing is a sure fire way to go from 0 to a 5 handicap fast.  

[Nels55]

I would say that it depends on the student more then anything.  For instance working on sticking a really good finish position might help a lot of golfers to make a better more balanced swing.  

[GolfTurkey]

Too much thinking about positions leads to no work getting done.

 

I think even 3D needs careful interpretation. There was a 3D video posted that showed that the angle between the lead arm and the chest decreased in transition in pro's i.e. the lead arm gets more pinned across the chest in transition.

 

If I remember correctly, @iteachgolf was the one who pointed out that this happens naturally in transition due the momentum of the club, arms and shoulders and the change of direction. Any conscious effort to pin the lead arm in transition would only cause the arms to get more behind the pivot which is the problem of the vast majority of ams; more likely you need to be consciously blasting your left arm off your chest.

[Zitlow]

In my view the golf swing should be taught using small motions each building on the next starting with the release and working backwards.

 

The forces of momentum and inertia do most of the work in a highly efficient golf swing which is why using small motions to teach larger motions is a better idea than teaching static positions. 

 

[CasualLie]

Positions are counter productive??? Huh?

 

Tell that to one if the best players in history working with one of the best instructors.

 

Here's your overrated position work at the 3:25 mark

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOecUNBV_Q0

 

 

[CasualLie]

On 12/3/2020 at 9:06 AM, johnrobison said:

I recently purchased the pressure insoles from Salted - got them from Amazon for $100 on sale - and if you couple them with instruction, I think they can be useful. You and your instructor can discuss your pressure trace and then you can use the insoles to ensure that you're practicing what you discussed.

 

Please review!  I'm curious if 2nd generation tech from these guys is any better than their first disaster.  Current online reviews very mixed.

[Fairway14]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:20 AM, me05501 said:

 

 

Knowing everything we know now, it seems like the idea of "hitting positions" needs to go on the trash heap of golf instruction.

 

 

 

Competent instructors have always known this to be true, which is why they refrained from using video.

[PureStrikes54]

12 hours ago, CasualLie said:

Positions are counter productive??? Huh?

 

Tell that to one if the best players in history working with one of the best instructors.

 

Here's your overrated position work at the 3:25 mark

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOecUNBV_Q0

 

 

 

You must have missed what was said from 5:10 - 6:40. "You wouldn't tell most golfers this, arms winning the race, tries to hold his hips and get his arms in front of his hip motion vs. if we told an average person that they'd be staying back here and never hitting it, athleticism, etc." Sure sounds concerned with dynamics. Tiger had athleticism and dynamics in his swing in spades. You could tell him at that time to swing flat footed with zero lower body activation and he's still going to have more athleticism in his swing than 90% of the tour. I can assure you that Butch was highly concerned with any intended or unintended consequences of position changes on dynamics as evidenced by Tiger's driving distance increasing by 5 yards from 1999 to 2000. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by PureStrikes54

[Krt22]

12 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Competent instructors have always known this to be true, which is why they refrained from using video.

lol... this isn't remotely true. 

[baudi]

Quote

Am I correct in thinking that we've evolved our understanding past the point of studying and trying to emulate positions?

Pos. 1-9 are a means to an end. It can and should never serve as a swing philosophy. 

 

[johnrobison]

17 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

Please review!  I'm curious if 2nd generation tech from these guys is any better than their first disaster.  Current online reviews very mixed.

I think it's very useful technology. Sadly I had to take an injury break only a week or so after getting mine but for the couple of times that it out, I liked it. I didn't experience any technical challenges or glitches and am not aware of their earlier disaster.

[CasualLie]

5 hours ago, PureStrikes54 said:

 

You must have missed what was said from 5:10 - 6:40. "You wouldn't tell most golfers this, arms winning the race, tries to hold his hips and get his arms in front of his hip motion vs. if we told an average person that they'd be staying back here and never hitting it, athleticism, etc." Sure sounds concerned with dynamics. Tiger had athleticism and dynamics in his swing in spades. You could tell him at that time to swing flat footed with zero lower body activation and he's still going to have more athleticism in his swing than 90% of the tour. I can assure you that Butch was highly concerned with any intended or unintended consequences of position changes on dynamics as evidenced by Tiger's driving distance increasing by 5 yards from 1999 to 2000. 

 

Did not miss it at all.  OP contends hitting a position should be "on the trash heap of golf instruction."  I am calling b.s. on that idea.

 

Of course it is about swing dynamics and of course there is much to be interpreted when it comes to how you get to a "position".  Yes, there is more to the story.  But at times, achieving a static position is the right checkpoint.  TW told the story a lot, he stopped at the top, then finished the swing.  Nevermind the details of why, how, what it felt like, what he's working on.  I'm simply saying at face value, he went to a position, obviously achieved something from that, then went on.

 

How many times have we seen an instructor talk about getting to P2, and then checking you are in the right "area".?  A million? How many golfers suck the club inside at P2 and the rest of the swing is garbage?  Countless.  So no one should practice hitting P2 correctly and checking???

 

Why is there a 9-3 drill so popular?  Should it be called a 9:30ish drill, or something like that?  I totally get it with the priority on dynamics, but let's not be so quick to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Sorry, had to throw that in there 😉

 

 

[Zitlow]

Would this be considered a correct P2 position?

 

[CasualLie]

Not even going to touch that can of worms...