Covid, RoG, (lack of) Rakes, and Posting

[Dpavs]

6 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Don't forget all the rocks and pebbles.  My poor wedges.  Seems like all the public courses around here are the same.  I literally find myself having to chip/pick the ball clean out of these so called "bunkers" or wedge bounces off the surface and makes things unpredictable.

 

So, so true ! While we have a local rule that allows picking the stones out the bunker and tossing them to the side, you cannot move the ball to do so and it's usually the one you don't see that takes that nice chunk of metal out of the sole of your wedge.

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Thanks for posting this, @ThinkingPlus. This is the first time that I have ever seen a quantification of the effect of bunkers. But some courses have lots of bunkers and some have few. How would you characterize how typical your course is WRT the effect of bunkers on play? And are there many fairway bunkers? 

 

Thanks.

 

dave

Only 5 holes of 14 with fairway bunkers.  Bunkers were large, but fairly shallow.  Definitely impacted play on 3 - 4 of the holes (one of those primarily impacted the ladies).  Greens have an average number of bunkers (some are fairly deep).  Our greens are somewhat unusual in that they are either very shallow or very narrow (8 - 12 yards).  They have shrunk away from the bunkers over the years so there are large areas of bermuda rough between greenside bunkers and the actual greens.

[DaveLeeNC]

@ThinkingPlus Thanks for the info. dave

[sui generis]

45 minutes ago, Dpavs said:

 

So, so true ! While we have a local rule that allows picking the stones out the bunker and tossing them to the side, you cannot move the ball to do so and it's usually the one you don't see that takes that nice chunk of metal out of the sole of your wedge.

 

As luck would have it, the 2019 Rules revision permits removal of loose impediments anywhere on of off the course.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=1

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=34

 

Prior to 2019 a Local Rule for stones in bunkers was available.

[Dpavs]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

As luck would have it, the 2019 Rules revision permits removal of loose impediments anywhere on of off the course.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=1

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=34

 

Prior to 2019 a Local Rule for stones in bunkers was available.

 

Good point. I am guessing the local rule is still there in our case in order to encourage their removal!

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, Dpavs said:

 

Good point. I am guessing the local rule is still there in our case in order to encourage their removal!

For the record, the old local rule is no longer sanctioned. The importance of which is, previously you could accidentally move your ball while removing the stone and replace it penalty free. Now it’s a penalty to do so (unlike when you’re removing an obstruction).

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Sawgrass said:

For the record, the old local rule is no longer sanctioned. The importance of which is, previously you could accidentally move your ball while removing the stone and replace it penalty free. Now it’s a penalty to do so (unlike when you’re removing an obstruction).

 

I don't remember it that way. Of course, I'm doing my best to not remember pre-2019. 🙄

 

ps Saw is spot on as usual. I think the pre-2019 Local Rule treated stones in bunkers as movable obstructions. I recall Committee arguments about the ball sitting on the stone and the somewhat absurd requirement that the moved ball be dropped.

Edited December 5, 2020 by sui generis

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I don't remember it that way. Of course, I'm doing my best to not remember pre-2019. 🙄

 

ps Saw is spot on as usual. I think the pre-2019 Local Rule treated stones in bunkers as movable obstructions. I recall Committee arguments about the ball sitting on the stone and the somewhat absurd requirement that the moved ball be dropped.

 

Certainly a ball sitting on top of a movable obstruction was (is) to be dropped when taking relief.

 

For the record, several professional tours have requested that particular LR to be re-issued as there are valid reasons for that. So far I have not heard whether RBs have yielded.

[nsxguy]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:48 PM, Shilgy said:

So far we have learned you do not mark your ball on the green and do not believe you should need to rake a bunker. Just use your feet. 
 

Considering this is the rules of golf AND etiquette forum you seem to be failing. 
 

In your most recent post above you noted...as an excuse to NOT rake.....

“One of the pitfalls in this day and age where everyone's feelings must be considered important. “
 

Most everyone that takes the game seriously will rake bunkers, fix pitch marks on the green, and replace or fill divots. 
 

Are you too entitled to not need to do so as well?

 

Isn't it funny how some golfers who, presumably, love to play, seem to want to do whatever they possibly can to get OFF the course as quickly as possible ?

 

Gotta wonder why they get ON the course to begin with. 

 

Seems like our friend here is ol' Under2hours-lite. 

[Mr. Bean]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:32 AM, nsxguy said:

 

Isn't it funny how some golfers who, presumably, love to play, seem to want to do whatever they possibly can to get OFF the course as quickly as possible ?

 

Gotta wonder why they get ON the course to begin with. 

 

I guess they love to play but do not love to loiter. In my eyes there is a difference.

[nsxguy]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I guess they love to play but do not love to loiter. In my eyes there is a difference.

 

I guess when I love to do something I want to spend as much time doing it as possible.

 

That said, I also believe in keeping the course moving and not unduly holding up groups behind me or players in my own group. But I see no point in rushing around the course as fast as I can. Last I looked "they" gave prizes to the best score(s), not the fastest player(s).

 

I was mostly referencing the guys who get annoyed people mark their golf ball on the green and who don't want rakes in bunkers just so players don't "waste time" raking them as Shilgy pointed out a bit earlier.

 

In my eyes there is a difference. 

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess when I love to do something I want to spend as much time doing it as possible.

 

 

Doing it is different from waiting to get to do it. I like the doing part but not the waiting part.

[nsxguy]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Doing it is different from waiting to get to do it. I like the doing part but not the waiting part.

 

You see, here's where communication sometimes break down. 

 

I can't tell if you're "chiding" me and possibly accusing me of playing slowly (for not wanting to rush off the course) OR simply adding to the thoughts expressed, kinda "me too".

 

Your editing of my post and your comment can be taken 2 ways.

 

So, in either case, I agree.  

[PoolPond]

We have been playing lift, clean and place no more than a club length.  It's been just fine. I don't even think there should ever be rakes in a bunker and we should not be allowed to move balls.  It's a hazard, not supposed to be a perfectly manicured beach. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, PoolPond said:

We have been playing lift, clean and place no more than a club length.  It's been just fine. I don't even think there should ever be rakes in a bunker and we should not be allowed to move balls.  It's a hazard, not supposed to be a perfectly manicured beach. 

Even when raked a bunker is rarely “ perfectly manicured”.  In my view  golf is a test and a well played bunker shot is a different question than is asked anywhere else on the course. Meaning it is a different type of shot.  Even the ruling bodies definition of a bunker is “specially prepared area of sand”

 

Bunkers are bunkers, not penalty areas. Is your view then is we should also not repair pitch marks or fill divot holes?  I am guessing not as you enjoy golf enough to be on a golf forum and consider that to be a part of being a good custodian of the course.  The test should be similar for every player. Raking the bunkers is a part of taking care of the course.

[PoolPond]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Even when raked a bunker is rarely “ perfectly manicured”.  In my view  golf is a test and a well played bunker shot is a different question than is asked anywhere else on the course. Meaning it is a different type of shot.  Even the ruling bodies definition of a bunker is “specially prepared area of sand”

 

Bunkers are bunkers, not penalty areas. Is your view then is we should also not repair pitch marks or fill divot holes?  I am guessing not as you enjoy golf enough to be on a golf forum and consider that to be a part of being a good custodian of the course.  The test should be similar for every player. Raking the bunkers is a part of taking care of the course.

The grounds crew maintains bunkers every morning to ensure they are perfectly manicured. At least at most courses. And if you know how to rake a bunker it's easy to put it right back into a manicured condition after a shot. Bunker shots are some of the easiest shots around a golf course, if not the easiest. Just need to know how to hit em. The old Charlie Wi method is the best and easiest. That's why many people will aim for them, if that will allow them to avoid deeper grass around a green. That's why pro's will always bail out into a bunker vs greenside rough. And that's also why pro's and fairly good amateurs alike will hit bunker shots very close to the hole on a consistent basis. Now, if the bunkers were not raked and you could not move your ball, we have a different game and scenario. And yes a bunker is a specially prepared area of sand, as opposed to a natural beach but that definition means nothing in regards to raking them.  I understand, I'll never win this argument but the argument is valid. Even Jack one year removed every other tine out of the rakes at the Memorial and the pros threw a hissy fit like no other.  Jack even explained in detail at a dinner that year why he did it and why these guys are insane to complain as much as they did.  And he was right because those trenches that the rakes made did not impact one bunker shot all week. The pros did just fine because even with the trenches, they were all still easy bunker shots. 

And of course I feel all pitch marks and divots should be fixed because that's a major cost of repairs around a course. You don't want dead grass everywhere. But not raking bunkers would have no impact on the course in the same manner as divots and pitch marks and in fact saves, time, money and gas by not having to maintain them and it keeps the game and course as natural as possible. 

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, PoolPond said:

The grounds crew maintains bunkers every morning to ensure they are perfectly manicured. At least at most courses. And if you know how to rake a bunker it's easy to put it right back into a manicured condition after a shot. Bunker shots are some of the easiest shots around a golf course, if not the easiest. Just need to know how to hit em. The old Charlie Wi method is the best and easiest. That's why many people will aim for them, if that will allow them to avoid deeper grass around a green. That's why pro's will always bail out into a bunker vs greenside rough. And that's also why pro's and fairly good amateurs alike will hit bunker shots very close to the hole on a consistent basis. Now, if the bunkers were not raked and you could not move your ball, we have a different game and scenario. And yes a bunker is a specially prepared area of sand, as opposed to a natural beach but that definition means nothing in regards to raking them.  I understand, I'll never win this argument but the argument is valid. Even Jack one year removed every other tine out of the rakes at the Memorial and the pros threw a hissy fit like no other.  Jack even explained in detail at a dinner that year why he did it and why these guys are insane to complain as much as they did.  And he was right because those trenches that the rakes made did not impact one bunker shot all week. The pros did just fine because even with the trenches, they were all still easy bunker shots. 

And of course I feel all pitch marks and divots should be fixed because that's a major cost of repairs around a course. You don't want dead grass everywhere. But not raking bunkers would have no impact on the course in the same manner as divots and pitch marks and in fact saves, time, money and gas by not having to maintain them and it keeps the game and course as natural as possible. 

It was easy for Jack to want the deep furrows....he was retired. He would have whined as much as any modern pro if it were done when he was playing.

Golf and it’s ruling bodies are slowly moving towards making the test golfers face more “fair”.  It is only an allowable local rule so far but one example is relief from a sprinkler head in your line near the green. The local rule allows a drop away from the head so that a player may putt the ball as it makes no sense that a player faced with the sprinkler head has a delicate chip while the player six inches to the side has an easier putt from the fringe.

That said I hope they never allow relief from divot holes. So I guess the easy answer to why rake the bunkers is....because. Just because.  If I am playing in a tournament and find myself in a footprint in the bunker I just silently curse the arrogant @sshole that did not rake and get on with the shot.  But he should have raked. Before they ever go to your system of not raking they should just save money on maintenance and just remove them.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Shilgy

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, PoolPond said:

The grounds crew maintains bunkers every morning to ensure they are perfectly manicured. At least at most courses. And if you know how to rake a bunker it's easy to put it right back into a manicured condition after a shot. Bunker shots are some of the easiest shots around a golf course, if not the easiest. Just need to know how to hit em. The old Charlie Wi method is the best and easiest. That's why many people will aim for them, if that will allow them to avoid deeper grass around a green. That's why pro's will always bail out into a bunker vs greenside rough. And that's also why pro's and fairly good amateurs alike will hit bunker shots very close to the hole on a consistent basis.

 

Bunker shots are some of the easiest around the course for highly skilled players. The rest of us ? Not so much.

 

I've been as low as a 2 at my home course and was not the lowest in the club. And I confess I have played with very few scratch or plus handicappers over the years.

 

But I can't recall ever hearing even one of them yell "Get in the bunker" UNLESS perhaps there was water or OB very close to it. But grass ? Nope. Never. The average player would ALWAYS rather be in the grass than the bunker.

 

"People" aim for them ? No people that I've ever seen. 

 

And it's not true that pros always aim for OR would always rather be IN them than grass. There are certainly times the bunker is the more difficult shot, even if the rough is a bit deep.

 

Just my observations,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

[golfortennis]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:52 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Bunker shots are some of the easiest around the course for highly skilled players. The rest of us ? Not so much.

 

I've been as low as a 2 at my home course and was not the lowest in the club. And I confess I have played with very few scratch or plus handicappers over the years.

 

But I can't recall ever hearing even one of them yell "Get in the bunker" UNLESS perhaps there was water or OB very close to it. But grass ? Nope. Never. The average player would ALWAYS rather be in the grass than the bunker.

 

"People" aim for them ? No people that I've ever seen. 

 

And it's not true that pros always aim for OR would always rather be IN them than grass. There are certainly times the bunker is the more difficult shot, even if the rough is a bit deep.

 

Just my observations,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

 

 

 

"Players aim for the bunkers" is the trope used to support "never rake bunkers."  BUt since they have heard it on TV during a major championship once, it must be true.

 

Just like you and I can hit it to a spot 3 yards past the pin and spin it back.