The Grip - Revisited

[iceman1118]

5 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I read something like this earlier in the thread but decided to let it lie. Since you've repeated it now perhaps I'll comment.

 

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that such a SS difference can occur from a neutral to a strong gip. Did you note a similar difference in BALL speed ?

 

From a grip where the hands are oriented "differently", such as neutral left and strong right, given that the hands do not appear to be working quite the same, I can understand a loss of SS.

 

But weak to neutral ? Neutral to strong ? Hard to imagine the SS could be that different.

 

Now you mentioned Trackman and I'm inclined to believe Trackman but in other discussions of launch monitors it's been said that the camera measures SS via the rotation of the TOE of the club.

 

If that is indeed the case isn't it possible that the closing of the toe is quicker with a stronger grip - which has to rotate the club head quicker to square it up ?

 

 

I agree, sounds nuts, but for me with a stronger grip I not only gain club head speed but I gain ball speed as well. My absolute best swings are 112-115 with 167-170 ball speed with a strong grip. Doing this gives me a slight pull fade, but it is a very consistent pull fade that is incredibly controllable and my preferred flight. If I have a "neutral" grip, I max out at about 108 mph and I might get 165 mph ball speed if I am lucky. And pull hooks become my ball flight. We are all built differently and different grips work for different people. When I use a neutral grip, I think that I have to make some sort of compensation somewhere in the swing and it causes a loss in club head speed. With a "strong" grip, I feel like I can just let it fly. 

 

I actually do not know about Trackman measuring SS via toe rotation. If that is the case then that could be why a stronger grip gives me faster swing speed, but again I am not sure. 

[Zitlow]

Here are the pressure points. As much as the meaty part of the hand as you get get to the right of the shaft and the 1st knuckle of the thumb.

 

You don't have to grip it hard using those pressure points and the club will be nice and secure with plenty of flexibility in your left wrist. Friction is a club head speed and ball control killer. 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Zitlow

[mgoblue83]

1 hour ago, mark m said:

Random thoughts:

 

• I like the video by Paddy as well. Really excellent. 
• His grip is more of Hogan variation of the Vardon grip - which I use myself - with a high riding right hand. And 2 knuckles showing on the left. This grip helps to eliminate big hooks. It may feel weaker initially, but I don't believe it is. (I am one those long hitting wrxers.)
• You could put "Hogan Grip Images" into your search engine to see many good photos. 
• Your top thumb should fit into the fold of your bottom hand and you should be able to push down on your top thumb to secure it. Your thumb on the right hand should be tight to meat of the hand. The thumb and forefinger shouldn't be active pressure, but just riding along. The grip pressure is in the last three fingers of the left hand and the middle two fingers of the right/bottom hand.
• Another personal preference is your top thumb - do you prefer a long thumb or short thumb? They say long thumb means long swing(?) not sure if true.
• I have thought Jordan Spieth's grip looks different (unconventional?) than the most of the other top players.
• Grip size - look at the Lamkin website here:

How to Choose a Golf Grip | Golf Club Grip | Lamkin Golf (lamkingrips.com)

 

Personal preferences:

• I am 6'6" and been plus/scratch for 25 years. My hands are large but I use Golf Pride CP2 Midsize grips. I like the reduced taper on my right hand and the overall feel - and they are durable as well. They are much easier on my hands then previous grips used. Previously I had pretty nasty calluses - no longer. And my hand measures 8 3/4"  - which is midsize according to their chart. (You would think I would be jumbo - but no.) But use whatever size works best for you.
• I use XXL glove and do not wear holes in them even though I have a firm grip. Like Paddy mentions - pressure is like gripping a hammer. If you are wearing a hole, it's not a good sign IMO. It's being caused by movement/friction. My gloves wear out due to sweat and becoming stretched out by constant removal for putting. 
•  

EDIT: I found this golfwrx article from a few ago as well. It has good drawings and photos. Hope this helps.

 

The Evolution of the Hogan Grip – GolfWRX

 

 

 

Welcome to the thread and thank you for so much great information. I agree that Spieth's grip looks weird. It almost looks like he is overlapping his entire hand and not just a finger. Does anyone know why?

 

Eliminating the movement/friction in my grip is my #1 goal right now but I'm not having much luck.

[mgoblue83]

38 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

I agree, sounds nuts, but for me with a stronger grip I not only gain club head speed but I gain ball speed as well. My absolute best swings are 112-115 with 167-170 ball speed with a strong grip. Doing this gives me a slight pull fade, but it is a very consistent pull fade that is incredibly controllable and my preferred flight. If I have a "neutral" grip, I max out at about 108 mph and I might get 165 mph ball speed if I am lucky. And pull hooks become my ball flight. We are all built differently and different grips work for different people. When I use a neutral grip, I think that I have to make some sort of compensation somewhere in the swing and it causes a loss in club head speed. With a "strong" grip, I feel like I can just let it fly. 

 

I actually do not know about Trackman measuring SS via toe rotation. If that is the case then that could be why a stronger grip gives me faster swing speed, but again I am not sure. 

 

Separate from grip I just wanted to clear up that comment about Trackman.

 

Trackman measures CHS using the center of mass of the club. This is usually slightly heel side and just behind the club face. Because of this Trackman CHS is slightly lower than the actual speed of the face at impact. This is why you can occasionally get smash factors of 1.52 when the theoretical max is 1.5. On the other side of things GCQuad measures CHS at the toe of the club (Toe dot sticker) which is rotating faster than the rest of the face and so the listed CHS is faster than the actual speed of the face at impact. This is why the maximum smash factor on GCQuad is 1.45 instead of the expected value of 1.5.

 

To summarize, Trackman CHS is slightly lower and GCQuad is higher (quite a bit in some cases) than the actual speed of the club face sweet spot at impact. It's normal for the same player to measure 110-112 mph on Trackman and 116-118 mph on GCQuad even though both units report the same ball speed. In that situation the actual CHS is probably 112-113 mph and no where near the 118 mph that Quad might report.

Edited December 8, 2020 by mgoblue83

[mgoblue83]

32 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Here are the pressure points. As much as the meaty part of the hand as you get get to the right of the shaft and the 1st knuckle of the thumb.

 

You don't have to grip it hard using those pressure points and the club will be nice and secure with plenty of flexibility in your left wrist. Friction is a club head speed and ball control killer. 

 

 

 

 

Really appreciate the picture and the meat of your hand makes sense but what are you squeezing with your left thumb? Mine just kind of hangs there as the club is in my fingers not my thumb.

[Zitlow]

@mgoblue83

Slight pressure on the grip by the 1st knuckle of both thumbs. The left hand is more of a palm grip and the right hand is more of a finger grip. You don't want the club flopping around in your hands and you don't want a death grip. Just a secure grip that allows your wrists and forearms to work freely. 

 

I didn't come up with this grip on my own, I learned it from Mike Austin. You want as little friction in your forearms and wrists as possible because the arms and wrists are conduits for energy that flows out to the club head. Any impedance or tension chokes off the flow of energy to the club head. 

[iceman1118]

46 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Separate from grip I just wanted to clear up that comment about Trackman.

 

Trackman measures CHS using the center of mass of the club. This is usually slightly heel side and just behind the club face. Because of this Trackman CHS is slightly lower than the actual speed of the face at impact. This is why you can occasionally get smash factors of 1.52 when the theoretical max is 1.5. On the other side of things GCQuad measures CHS at the toe of the club (Toe dot sticker) which is rotating faster than the rest of the face and so the listed CHS is faster than the actual speed of the face at impact. This is why the maximum smash factor on GCQuad is 1.45 instead of the expected value of 1.5.

 

To summarize, Trackman CHS is slightly lower and GCQuad is higher (quite a bit in some cases) than the actual speed of the club face sweet spot at impact. It's normal for the same player to measure 110-112 mph on Trackman and 116-118 mph on GCQuad even though both units report the same ball speed. In that situation the actual CHS is probably 112-113 mph and no where near the 118 mph that Quad might report.

I did not know that. Thanks for the info!

[mgoblue83]

Just found a really cool video about the long thumb vs. short thumb and about how the left hand needs to be connected to the grip. This video really spoke to me about the importance of having 3 contact points on the top of the club (in my grip I only have 2).

 

 

[Ri_Redneck]

Delete

Edited December 9, 2020 by Ri_Redneck

[mgoblue83]

1 minute ago, Ri_Redneck said:

This part of your post has been weighing on my mind since yesterday. I was always taught that you hold the club lightly at address, but the grip tightens as you swing to keep the club under control. For me it's not a conscious thing. My hands just do it to keep the club where it is supposed to be. So when I make a full swing using only my left hand, I HAVE to hold the club tightly or it moves all over the place. Does that make sense? However, it makes a difference WHICH FINGERS tighten during the swing.

 

In my full swing, the only ones I am aware of tightening are the pinky, ring & middle fingers on my left hand and the ring & middle fingers of my right hand. As I start the backswing, my left hand fingers begin to tighten as I push the club back with my left hand. Right hand is simply relaxed and along for the ride. As I reach the top of my backswing, I feel the right hand fingers start to tighten a bit to get the club handle nice and high. During the downswing, they are all firm and simply maintain enough pressure to keep the handle of the club from moving in my hands. I suppose they are tightest just before, during and slightly after impact. But then relax a lot in the followthrough so it's nice and deep, but doesn't stress my back.

 

Hope all that is clear.

 

BT

 

The biggest problem I'm having is maintaining pressure between my pinky finger and the heel pad of my hand. I don't know if it's a grip size issue or what but the only way I can keep the club from moving/rubbing is to squeeze as hard as I possibly can with my pinky and heel pad which makes it almost impossible to swing a club.

[Ri_Redneck]

Delete.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Ri_Redneck

[Ri_Redneck]

17 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

I can make many swings with my left arm before it gets tired and aches (at least 30 but don't know for sure) but only if I relax my grip and let the club move in my hand. If i clench down tight with the left hand I wouldn't be able to make many swings because it's hard to even let my wrist relax holding on that tight.

 

I'm sure my ring and middle finger are stronger than my pinky finger but that can't be the issue here or tons of people would be having this same issue. How do you lock the butt of the club into your left hand without squeezing super hard?

This part of your post has been weighing on my mind since yesterday. I was always taught that you hold the club lightly at address, but the grip tightens as you swing to keep the club under control. For me it's not a conscious thing. My hands just do it to keep the club where it is supposed to be. So when I make a full swing using only my left hand, I HAVE to hold the club tightly or it moves all over the place. Does that make sense? However, it makes a difference WHICH FINGERS tighten during the swing. If you're relaxing your left pinky, ring and middle fingers when you swing with only your left hand, which fingers are you holding the club with the most? If it's the middle, index and thumb, that's your problem, IMHO.

 

In my full swing, the only ones I am aware of tightening are the pinky, ring & middle fingers on my left hand and the ring & middle fingers of my right hand. As I start the backswing, my left hand fingers begin to tighten as I push the club back with my left hand. Right hand is simply relaxed and along for the ride. As I reach the top of my backswing, I feel the right hand fingers start to tighten a bit to get the club handle nice and high. As I start the transition, my left hand fingers lighten some so I get some wrist loading. As the downswing progresses, I maintain enough pressure to keep the handle of the club from moving in my hands. It feels like my left hand fingers are tightest just before, during and slightly after impact and my right hand fingers lighten up and my right hand just gives the club a little flip into the ball. My entire grip then relaxes a lot in the followthrough so it's nice and deep, but doesn't stress my back.

 

Hope all that is clear.

 

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

9 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

The biggest problem I'm having is maintaining pressure between my pinky finger and the heel pad of my hand. I don't know if it's a grip size issue or what but the only way I can keep the club from moving/rubbing is to squeeze as hard as I possibly can with my pinky and heel pad which makes it almost impossible to swing a club.

Then I would do these three things.

 

1. Increase the size of your grips so that you don't have to grip so tight to keep things under control.

 

2. Start using a tackier grip so that the grip itself restricts movement.

 

3. Strengthen those left hand pinky, ring and middle fingers by squeezing a rubber ball. Focus on beginning the squeeze with those fingers in that order.

 

BTW, sorry for the multiple posts. I think my internet was lagging and I got a little impatient.

 

BT

[SouthLand]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:50 AM, Zitlow said:

You want the meaty part of the butt of your palm hanging over the butt of the grip. It locks the club in like a vice without having to grip the club tightly. Similar to this but a lot more. 

 

Adjusted my grip to get some of this going on, coming from gripping down a bit more, and the move has felt really good through a few range buckets.  I’ve been a lot more comfortable with lighter pressure, and feel like it’s been much easier to swing smoothly.

Edited December 9, 2020 by SouthLand

[thisjustanother]

for me, im not sure if its wrong or right. but i lead my left hand with positoning the thumb down the middle of the grip first, if i need stronger or weaker, move it left or right from the middle. then i will wrap the rest of my fingers around the grip.  its the easiest way for me to start my swing through routine.  and this all is dependant on the size of your grips as well. i went up to midsize cause i started to feel pain in my hands and it just felt too thin using standard.