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Toe Down Conundrum


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Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

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Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.   If the line is vertical then don't change a thing   If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is goi

Lie angle issue = High hands at impact Left side miss = Too much face closure 'Take a video from behind and you will see how/why you end up with your hands "high". Lie angle at impact is a prod

I wish I had the answers to these exact questions, I’ll follow along for some sage advice to come along.  Unfortunately, I think the fix is, fix the swing, at some point too much toe down has to be an

46 minutes ago, Armour248 said:

Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Are you steep in transition?

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I've been a toe down hitter for as long as I can remember.  For me, it's a loss of spine angle. I've gotten better at that over the last few years, but it's still there.  It's one of the reasons I use the X2 Hot irons.  The shape of the sole in the toe area helps me out in that regard.  Previous set was Ping i20's and the wide toe was a problem.

 

For me, increasing the lie angle only allowed me to goat hump it more.  I settled on lie angles that go from std in the short irons to about +2º in the longer irons.  The ball goes straight so I know that I'm okay and not going to change things at age 60.

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2 hours ago, CAT GOLFER said:

I wish I had the answers to these exact questions, I’ll follow along for some sage advice to come along.  Unfortunately, I think the fix is, fix the swing, at some point too much toe down has to be an issue...doesn’t it?

 

Definitely agree that at some point it has to be an issue even though it works for the most part. It's not like I play actual rounds and ever hit a shot where I go "man the toe really dug in". But then I get on a launch monitor and start wondering if there's a way to level it out and if that would be beneficial on the course as well

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Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

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Ball doesn't lie.  If it goes where you think it should go and the way it should go - don't change anything. 

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Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
TM R7 TP 3i Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

 

I think a closed face toe down combo situation is definitely the case. My grip is already very neutral...but maybe I'm in the minority that can/should have a weaker grip to prevent shutting the face down

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I have gone through a ton of golf clubs in the past 2 years. I always thought I needed clubs that were upright and over length, and my swing was always steep. A few months ago I went and reshafted an old set of Mizuno MP-33's that are 1* flatter than the new mizuno standard. So 3* flat from what I have been playing. Miraculously my swing flattened out nearly instantly. My point is that sometimes to fix things in golf, we need to do the opposite of what make sense. It wouldn't be hard to test in your case, go grab a stock fitting iron and see what it does to your toe down situation.

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6 hours ago, Armour248 said:

Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!


Strange, ive seen this for players with a out to in path, not the other way, so are you sure path was in to out?

Use the ball marker test to make sure how lie angle is at impact, those numbers dont seem right to me.

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3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

Exactly. Don't chase insignificant ghosts.

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6 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:


Strange, ive seen this for players with a out to in path, not the other way, so are you sure path was in to out?

Use the ball marker test to make sure how lie angle is at impact, those numbers dont seem right to me.

 

Yeah every swing was in-out and had left sidespin on it. It's definitely a strange combination of things taking place. If I can find more GCQuad club dots I'll try and hit a standard lie angle fitting club today and see what happens. 

 

I'll also try and do the sharpie line to see what the results are...just need to find somewhere I'm not hitting into a projector screen

 

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12 hours ago, Armour248 said:

 

I should get an updated video but from what I've seen over the past few years, nothing too significant

Steep in transition coupled with early extension can result in high hands at impact and toe down.  It’s the only way to have an inside-to-out swing path when you’re steep and EE.  If you didn’t raise the handle, you’d be severely out-to-in.  Do you have lots of shaft lean at impact?  Or is the shaft relatively vertical at impact.

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11 minutes ago, Bravcon said:

Steep in transition coupled with early extension can result in high hands at impact and toe down.  It’s the only way to have an inside-to-out swing path when you’re steep and EE.  If you didn’t raise the handle, you’d be severely out-to-in.  Do you have lots of shaft lean at impact?  Or is the shaft relatively vertical at impact.

 

To be honest I'm not sure...I think it's relatively vertical even with a good downward angle of attack. That all sounds very likely though

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44 minutes ago, Armour248 said:

 

To be honest I'm not sure...I think it's relatively vertical even with a good downward angle of attack. That all sounds very likely though

If you have an iPhone, very easy to record yourself in Slo-mo from down the line and face on to see where the club is at different parts of the swing.  Recommend actually hitting something when you do it, instead of air swings.

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Just now, Bravcon said:

If you have an iPhone, very easy to record yourself in Slo-mo from down the line and face on to see where the club is at different parts of the swing.  Recommend actually hitting something when you do it, instead of air swings.

 

Yeah I just meant I haven't recorded my swing in quite a while haha. Probably almost a year ago now. I'll do some further research and see what else I can figure out 👍

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Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

 

I was thinking that you might be addressing the ball with the sole flat to the ground and then the natural droop of the club is giving you a toe-down impact.  The normal address position being with the toe slightly up.  Or the shaft is too soft for your swing speed giving excess droop.

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Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
TM R7 TP 3i Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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FYI - I have the same "issue" where divots are toe down, the vertical line test points toward the heel, my clubs are already upright, and my miss is left so I don't want to go more upright. What causes my issue is getting out of sync with my hips (firing early) and/or shifting laterally toward the target to early. On relaxed swings and 3/4 shots my face and lie angle are perfectly square but when I start adding speed they can get off. For this reason I spend most of my range sessions hitting 3/4 shots and smooth swings like 100yd 8irons and flighted wedges to help stay more connected.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

FYI - I have the same "issue" where divots are toe down, the vertical line test points toward the heel, my clubs are already upright, and my miss is left so I don't want to go more upright. What causes my issue is getting out of sync with my hips (firing early) and/or shifting laterally toward the target to early. On relaxed swings and 3/4 shots my face and lie angle are perfectly square but when I start adding speed they can get off. For this reason I spend most of my range sessions hitting 3/4 shots and smooth swings like 100yd 8irons and flighted wedges to help stay more connected.

 

 

 

 


Lie angle issue = High hands at impact
Left side miss = Too much face closure

'Take a video from behind and you will see how/why you end up with your hands "high".
Lie angle at impact is a product of hand position and toe drop combined




 

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On 12/5/2020 at 10:06 PM, Howard_Jones said:


Lie angle issue = High hands at impact
Left side miss = Too much face closure

'Take a video from behind and you will see how/why you end up with your hands "high".
Lie angle at impact is a product of hand position and toe drop combined




 

 

I'm sure this is 100% the case.  Pretty amazing how you can play well all year then get indoors in the winter and go "how the hell was I playing like that with these numbers?"  Unfortunately I have a difficult time getting my hands lower and I'm wondering if I've learned to close the face more aggressively to make up for any toe contact/face opening

 

I had a chance to really quickly hit one 5i, one 7i and one 9i with the vertical sharpie.  Excuse my trashy heel shot on the 9i...but seems to get pretty visibly worse as I work into the shorter clubs  

 

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