Jump to content

Toe Down Conundrum


Armour248

Recommended Posts

Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Armour248 said:

Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Are you steep in transition?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been a toe down hitter for as long as I can remember.  For me, it's a loss of spine angle. I've gotten better at that over the last few years, but it's still there.  It's one of the reasons I use the X2 Hot irons.  The shape of the sole in the toe area helps me out in that regard.  Previous set was Ping i20's and the wide toe was a problem.

 

For me, increasing the lie angle only allowed me to goat hump it more.  I settled on lie angles that go from std in the short irons to about +2º in the longer irons.  The ball goes straight so I know that I'm okay and not going to change things at age 60.

  • Like 1

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CAT GOLFER said:

I wish I had the answers to these exact questions, I’ll follow along for some sage advice to come along.  Unfortunately, I think the fix is, fix the swing, at some point too much toe down has to be an issue...doesn’t it?

 

Definitely agree that at some point it has to be an issue even though it works for the most part. It's not like I play actual rounds and ever hit a shot where I go "man the toe really dug in". But then I get on a launch monitor and start wondering if there's a way to level it out and if that would be beneficial on the course as well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ball doesn't lie.  If it goes where you think it should go and the way it should go - don't change anything. 

  • Like 1

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

 

I think a closed face toe down combo situation is definitely the case. My grip is already very neutral...but maybe I'm in the minority that can/should have a weaker grip to prevent shutting the face down

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have gone through a ton of golf clubs in the past 2 years. I always thought I needed clubs that were upright and over length, and my swing was always steep. A few months ago I went and reshafted an old set of Mizuno MP-33's that are 1* flatter than the new mizuno standard. So 3* flat from what I have been playing. Miraculously my swing flattened out nearly instantly. My point is that sometimes to fix things in golf, we need to do the opposite of what make sense. It wouldn't be hard to test in your case, go grab a stock fitting iron and see what it does to your toe down situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Armour248 said:

Besides the obvious issue that I may just be a toe digger due to my swing...wondering if anyone else has run into this and come up with any way to alleviate the issue.  I am hitting the ball perfectly well so I have no real complaints, but I have a consistent toe down strike.  Here are my GCQuad averages for five 7 irons I hit today...

 

117 ball speed

18.5* launch angle

0.2* side angle

6313 backspin

500 L sidespin

46.8* descent angle

32 yd peak

165 yd carry

 

89.5 club speed

3.7 downward AoA

2.8 in-out path

3.9 toe down

1mm heel 

 

So my understanding is that conventional wisdom would say to bend more upright.  However, I'm already at 2* upright and my miss is typically left already.  Is it worth going more upright to try and alleviate the 4* toe down?  Would going flatter actually get the ball starting a little further right and maybe the toe down won't change much since it's likely a swing fault?  Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!


Strange, ive seen this for players with a out to in path, not the other way, so are you sure path was in to out?

Use the ball marker test to make sure how lie angle is at impact, those numbers dont seem right to me.

  • Like 1

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Forget the launch monitor and do the vertical line test on the ball.

 

If the line is vertical then don't change a thing

 

If the line is angled toward the heel but the ball is going straight then you are delivering a closed face with the toe down (counter each other) and you "should" make adjustments to your grip and delivery back to square/square.

 

All that said - if you are playing good golf don't chase ghosts.

Exactly. Don't chase insignificant ghosts.

  • Like 1

TM 2016 M2 12*(-2 setting) - OG Grafalloy Blue X, 43.5"

TEE XCG7 16.5* 4w, OG Grafalloy Blue S, 41.75"

Wilson D9 18* 4i, KBS Max-R, 39.5”

Cobra King OS 4-G, TT XP95 R300, -.5
Mack Daddy CB 56.14(2* weak)  60.12(3*  weak)

Edel Brick

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:


Strange, ive seen this for players with a out to in path, not the other way, so are you sure path was in to out?

Use the ball marker test to make sure how lie angle is at impact, those numbers dont seem right to me.

 

Yeah every swing was in-out and had left sidespin on it. It's definitely a strange combination of things taking place. If I can find more GCQuad club dots I'll try and hit a standard lie angle fitting club today and see what happens. 

 

I'll also try and do the sharpie line to see what the results are...just need to find somewhere I'm not hitting into a projector screen

 

Edited by Armour248
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Armour248 said:

 

I should get an updated video but from what I've seen over the past few years, nothing too significant

Steep in transition coupled with early extension can result in high hands at impact and toe down.  It’s the only way to have an inside-to-out swing path when you’re steep and EE.  If you didn’t raise the handle, you’d be severely out-to-in.  Do you have lots of shaft lean at impact?  Or is the shaft relatively vertical at impact.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Bravcon said:

Steep in transition coupled with early extension can result in high hands at impact and toe down.  It’s the only way to have an inside-to-out swing path when you’re steep and EE.  If you didn’t raise the handle, you’d be severely out-to-in.  Do you have lots of shaft lean at impact?  Or is the shaft relatively vertical at impact.

 

To be honest I'm not sure...I think it's relatively vertical even with a good downward angle of attack. That all sounds very likely though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Armour248 said:

 

To be honest I'm not sure...I think it's relatively vertical even with a good downward angle of attack. That all sounds very likely though

If you have an iPhone, very easy to record yourself in Slo-mo from down the line and face on to see where the club is at different parts of the swing.  Recommend actually hitting something when you do it, instead of air swings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Bravcon said:

If you have an iPhone, very easy to record yourself in Slo-mo from down the line and face on to see where the club is at different parts of the swing.  Recommend actually hitting something when you do it, instead of air swings.

 

Yeah I just meant I haven't recorded my swing in quite a while haha. Probably almost a year ago now. I'll do some further research and see what else I can figure out 👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could shaft weight be an issue and I'm putting too much force into the shaft/head which is causing the shaft to deflect downward?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks!

 

I was thinking that you might be addressing the ball with the sole flat to the ground and then the natural droop of the club is giving you a toe-down impact.  The normal address position being with the toe slightly up.  Or the shaft is too soft for your swing speed giving excess droop.

  • Like 1

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FYI - I have the same "issue" where divots are toe down, the vertical line test points toward the heel, my clubs are already upright, and my miss is left so I don't want to go more upright. What causes my issue is getting out of sync with my hips (firing early) and/or shifting laterally toward the target to early. On relaxed swings and 3/4 shots my face and lie angle are perfectly square but when I start adding speed they can get off. For this reason I spend most of my range sessions hitting 3/4 shots and smooth swings like 100yd 8irons and flighted wedges to help stay more connected.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

FYI - I have the same "issue" where divots are toe down, the vertical line test points toward the heel, my clubs are already upright, and my miss is left so I don't want to go more upright. What causes my issue is getting out of sync with my hips (firing early) and/or shifting laterally toward the target to early. On relaxed swings and 3/4 shots my face and lie angle are perfectly square but when I start adding speed they can get off. For this reason I spend most of my range sessions hitting 3/4 shots and smooth swings like 100yd 8irons and flighted wedges to help stay more connected.

 

 

 

 


Lie angle issue = High hands at impact
Left side miss = Too much face closure

'Take a video from behind and you will see how/why you end up with your hands "high".
Lie angle at impact is a product of hand position and toe drop combined




 

  • Like 3

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/5/2020 at 10:06 PM, Howard_Jones said:


Lie angle issue = High hands at impact
Left side miss = Too much face closure

'Take a video from behind and you will see how/why you end up with your hands "high".
Lie angle at impact is a product of hand position and toe drop combined




 

 

I'm sure this is 100% the case.  Pretty amazing how you can play well all year then get indoors in the winter and go "how the hell was I playing like that with these numbers?"  Unfortunately I have a difficult time getting my hands lower and I'm wondering if I've learned to close the face more aggressively to make up for any toe contact/face opening

 

I had a chance to really quickly hit one 5i, one 7i and one 9i with the vertical sharpie.  Excuse my trashy heel shot on the 9i...but seems to get pretty visibly worse as I work into the shorter clubs  

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Armour248
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Here’s the answer I have found on all of this, along with a few things that can be tricky when looking at numbers. 
 

1- lie at impact is heavily influenced by hand path in the down swing. If your hand path exits hard to the left that will promote a tow down impact. That doesn’t mean that the club path has to be out to in, that will depend on release. 

 

2- swing path on launch monitors only measure the path around impact. You can come hard from the inside with an in to out swing path and release early and LM’s will show an out to in club path. (Basically flipping, early release). I see it all the time; people thinking they are over the top with their swing but are coming from inside and releasing early or incorrectly. 
 

Most good players exit hard left with hands but are able to keep club on an in to out path- this is the sweet spot as it allows for faster/easier rotation and forward shaft at impact. 

mid it was me, I would try to mess with hand path. It’s the only way I have ever been able to change lie at impact.  That being said, all of the good players I have measured on GC Quad have tendency to be tow down at impact. Good luck! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies
    • 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am - Tuesday #1
       
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Justin Thomas - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Hardy - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Seamus Power - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Hadwin - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Kurt Kitayama - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Byeong Hun An - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nicolai Hojgaard - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Sam Burns - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Brandon Wu - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JT Poston - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Nick Dunlap - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Alex Smalley - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pau Gasol WITB (2x NBA Champion, 6x All-Star) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Josh Allen WITB (NFL Quarterback, Buffalo Bills) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Matt Kuchar - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      JJ Spaun - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Jordan Spieth - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Svensson - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Adam Scott (mini) - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Taylor Moore - WITB - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      TaylorMade putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Pebble Beach Golf Links (holes 7 & 8) – 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Odyssey putters - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Lucas Glover going to test black Srixon ZX5 & ZX7 irons - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Justin Thomas wrist training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Stephen Sweeney's Putting Ballistic putting training aid - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
      Chris Kirk club changes - 2024 AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies

×
×
  • Create New...