Anyone hit any 2021 drivers already?

[pinhigh27]

27 minutes ago, st626629 said:

Right so..what percentage of this improvement is happening via the new shaft technology? The increases with the heads seem to be incrementally small - as they don’t have far to go to hit the limits - both physical and per the rules. they can expand the ball speed across the face but a lot of the other stuff I’d think has as much to do with the shafts as the head. Just thinking out loud about this...
 

Drivers are a massive exercise in marketing (and they are really good at it!) but shaft companies aren’t really the marketing monsters the likes of TM or callaway are. They are sort of just along for the ride...

 

They can make the CG lower and lower which lets them be lower spin and more forgiving. 
 

It’s not like there is a ton of shaft tech either. Shafts are getting more consistent I would say and are being impregnated with stronger materials but it’s not like a Ventus is 10x better than a good old v2 from back in the day or a graf blue. 
 

club progress in general is pretty incremental and anyone hoping to buy a game is looking in the wrong place , but this is golfwrx where everyone is an 8.5 tour issue loft XXstiff shaft driver and a set of blades away from being a + handicap 

[pinhigh27]

Also re titleist and spinny heads, they got that reputation for a reason. They have been constantly coming out with limited release lower spin heads, because people want them. You don't see taylormade or ping releasing a " super low spin SIM or a low low spin tech 410" They make their couple product lines, release them and stick by it. Titleist releases the couple for the masse and then has a tendency to release a further lower spinning version down the line. Also their CG placements aren't anything impressive from an engineering standpoint.

 

That doesn't mean they won't work great for some people but from objective desirable quantities that people want in their woods from an engineering standpoint, titleist has been notably behind the TM, PING, Cobra and Cally

[goheels11]

1 hour ago, pinhigh27 said:

There’s no evidence that some heads magically start working for fast swing speeds 

No magic, but there are certainly heads that don’t spin enough for lower swing speeds. 

[pinhigh27]

1 minute ago, goheels11 said:

No magic, but there are certainly heads that don’t spin enough for lower swing speeds. 

Sure if you try to put an 8 degree SIM into a 90 mph swingers hands its probably not gonna be great, haven't seen evidence of that with anything titleist and the comment was about all titleist drivers in general. The Ts2/Tsi2 can definitely be played by a variety of speeds, I don't think many people are going to spin those too low 

[Drewhill44]

I've watched many of the online reviews of the 2021 drivers from Cobra, Titleist, and Srixon...(I think Alex Eches is the only one to review the Ping G425), and all 3 seem to very close in performance.  All three produce good ball speeds, 2,000-2,500 spin rates and carry distance is within 5 yards(per dry ball testing).  The TXG video where Matty Boy hits the Cobra RAD, Titleist TSi3, and the Srixon ZX7 shows just how close those 3 are.    It will be interesting to see how the new Ping, Callaway and Taylormade will compare.  

 

Seems to me that companies are now looking to improve stability of the clubhead on off center hits and creating a tighter dispersion pattern.

[third-times-a-charm]

Just now, Drewhill44 said:

I've watched many of the online reviews of the 2021 drivers from Cobra, Titleist, and Srixon...(I think Alex Eches is the only one to review the Ping G425), and all 3 seem to very close in performance.  All three produce good ball speeds, 2,000-2,500 spin rates and carry distance is within 5 yards(per dry ball testing).  The TXG video where Matty Boy hits the Cobra RAD, Titleist TSi3, and the Srixon ZX7 shows just how close those 3 are.    It will be interesting to see how the new Ping, Callaway and Taylormade will compare.  

 

Seems to me that companies are now looking to improve stability of the clubhead on off center hits and creating a tighter dispersion pattern.

 

lol all drivers from all major companies have been the same for years now. You just go with what cosmetics and sound you like better - and shaft of course. Its disingenuous to think otherwise.

 

Theres some minor head differences like fade/draw bias that posters here MAY notice - but 99% of golfers wont so it's a moot point.

[QuigleyDU]

34 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

lol all drivers from all major companies have been the same for years now. You just go with what cosmetics and sound you like better - and shaft of course. Its disingenuous to think otherwise.

 

Theres some minor head differences like fade/draw bias that posters here MAY notice - but 99% of golfers wont so it's a moot point.

 

I am sorry, I don't think this is accurate.. These OEM are all doing things very differently. Yes, they are all going after optimization. But doing it in very different ways. Titleist and ping are still full titanium. Cobra and Taylormade are pushing into an almost majority composite head make up. Cobra is pushing the CG as close to the face as possible. Ping is almost pushing it as far away as possible. Callaway is putting a bunch of research into the face. Titleist contract a aerospace, defense contract company to design the face for the TSI. Cobra is milling their faces and edges. 

 

These heads are all very very different. Are the all as optimized as possible? Sure. But that optimization is different and is more optimized for different golfers. If you want to say they will all perform similar. That is fair, and for the price they should. There should not be one that is miles better than the others.. 

 

It is disingenuous to say they are the same. It also means that it does not matter which driver you play. I think that is false.. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by QuigleyDU

[philt90]

TSi3 vs G425 is my problem don’t know what to go with 

[third-times-a-charm]

39 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

 

I am sorry, I don't think this is accurate.. These OEM are all doing things very differently. Yes, they are all going after optimization. But doing it in very different ways. Titleist and ping are still full titanium. Cobra and Taylormade are pushing into an almost majority composite head make up. Cobra is pushing the CG as close to the face as possible. Ping is almost pushing it as far away as possible. Callaway is putting a bunch of research into the face. Titleist contract a aerospace, defense contract company to design the face for the TSI. Cobra is milling their faces and edges. 

 

These heads are all very very different. Are the all as optimized as possible? Sure. But that optimization is different and is more optimized for different golfers. If you want to say they will all perform similar. That is fair, and for the price they should. There should not be one that is miles better than the others.. 

 

It is disingenuous to say they are the same. It also means that it does not matter which driver you play. I think that is false.. 

 

I agree that every OEM is chasing something different - but the end goal is the same and with varying methods to get there and skirting around each others patents while at the same time trying to differentiate by offering marketing difference in materials and aforementioned methods.

 

...but I disagree that theyre not all extremely similar. 

 

As I mentioned - you arent the person my statement was aimed at. We've seen your #'s and you can hit virtually any driver well - but you also want certain things out of the driver due to your skill level. The 99% of 'off the rack' golfers dont need that and can be fit GOOD ENOUGH with any OEMs driver.

Edited December 27, 2020 by third-times-a-charm

[QuigleyDU]

7 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

I agree that every OEM is chasing something different but the end goal is the same but with varying methods and skirting around each others patents while at the same time trying to differentiate by offering marketing difference in materials and aforementioned methods.

 

...but I disagree that theyre not all extremely similar. 

 

As I mentioned - you arent the person my statement was aimed at. We've seen your #'s and you can hit virtually any driver well - but you also want certain things out of the driver due to your skill level. The 99% of 'off the rack' golfers dont need that and can be fit GOOD ENOUGH with any OEMs driver.

Sure, I commented for the sake of conversation. No contention, I just enjoy the conversation. I agree to an extent that many recreational golfers who have driver swings speeds of less that 100 (and there are a lot). Are not going to see much difference. Unless you go into something like the Callaway BB21, Fmax, or drivers of that ilk. The BB21 is a pretty fascinating driver. Very low spin, but also very anti right. I have seen people who cannot keep driver on the planet with anything else hit that driver and become very playable. 

 

That driver is very very different from others that I have seen trying to do the same thing but in a different way. 

 

I just think it sends an incorrect message to say they are all the same. It is very fair to say they are all similar. As well they should be. All these OEMs are trying to get as close to the max CT as possible on center strikes and trying add stability to the head on off center hits. 

 

Sure we are getting marketed too a ton, and we have to wade through that to get to the truth. But hey, that is why we are all here right? We enjoy the swim to find what is best for us!

Edited December 27, 2020 by QuigleyDU

[Hawkeye77]

Just replaced my 2013 driver with a 2020 late summer so won’t be touching any 2021s!

[Brooks_Cupcake]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just replaced my 2013 driver with a 2020 late summer so won’t be touching any 2021s!

Man, I would trade any driver for a late summer too! Sounds like you got exactly what everyone wants 

[Gary Gutful]

3 hours ago, philt90 said:

TSi3 vs G425 is my problem don’t know what to go with 

Your WITB sig suggests you've made that decision already.

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, therealjonzone said:

Man, I would trade any driver for a late summer too! Sounds like you got exactly what everyone wants 

Haha! New Mavrik SZ - blew my trusty 913D2 away!

Edited December 27, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[J13]

Changes to any head from any OEM will be small improvements.  Titleist is making big improvements with clubs because it's more than double it's R&D staff and investment.  The new line looks and performs great but whether or not it will be best is up to the player.  Tsi3 though will be popular on tour alongside the obvious suspects Ping, Cally and TM.

[philt90]

1 hour ago, Gary Gutful said:

Your WITB sig suggests you've made that decision already.

Yer got a G425 but do like the look of the TSi3 too 

[BallerNate]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just replaced my 2013 driver with a 2020 late summer so won’t be touching any 2021s!

Got my new Driver in September, but still looking to change out, Lol!!

[jwb10]

4 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

I agree that every OEM is chasing something different - but the end goal is the same and with varying methods to get there and skirting around each others patents while at the same time trying to differentiate by offering marketing difference in materials and aforementioned methods.

 

...but I disagree that theyre not all extremely similar. 

 

As I mentioned - you arent the person my statement was aimed at. We've seen your #'s and you can hit virtually any driver well - but you also want certain things out of the driver due to your skill level. The 99% of 'off the rack' golfers dont need that and can be fit GOOD ENOUGH with any OEMs driver.

I think 99% is low, it's 100 %. No offense to my fitting friends, but I think you could give me (or someone with way better credentials) a TracMan, 5 OEM drivers, some shafts and we'd fit em'up . Just like they do at Dicks, or Golf galaxy, etc. There is no mystery, no sorcery, just numbers and results. No flaming now, because you know it's true. We have great OEMs, with great (expensive) products and whichever one suits your fancy, for whatever reason, is the best

[Howie]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Haha! New Mavrik SZ - blew my trusty 913D2 away!

 

Same here. Was using a SIM all season until the Mavrik SZ offered 3MPH faster ball speed (same shaft in both).

[The Mad Bomber]

22 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

What does this even mean? How would a head be biased towards faster swingers but not work for slower ones?

 

They have the reputation for being spinny because they have been. Other OEMs don't have guys playing 7.5 loft drivers very often. Titleist guys were always chasing the lowest loft and spin combos possible, because the heads spun a lot. 

That's just not been my experience. I actually lofted up my 915 a little. But I've never given up a single yard against anything else that's been released by playing Titleist drivers. My 915 kept up to M6, the TS3 was right there with SIM and TSi3 was even a hair quicker than anything else out there. Titleist drivers have always been just as good as anything for higher speed guys because they *tend* to be better players that have a habit of hitting it on the button. Miss the middle, and they've never been a forgiving driver. There's generally a direct correlation between speed and skill, albeit not an absolute one. Your question somewhat ignores that correlation and would suggest that there's no such thing as one driver being more forgiving than another. I did add the caveat of being a good ball striker with speed to boot as a condition of having your Titleist driver perform as good as anything out there.

[The Mad Bomber]

22 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Not sure I follow that.   Who are the high ballspeed tour guys using titleist ?  Fleetwood for a moment.  But he’s gone TM.   And not really a high ballspeed guy.  
 

some of the free agents I can think of that are fast.  All are TM or ping. One tried callaway for a minute ( Brooks ) and ended up throwing one head into the woods I think ( may have been a sim ?) and went back to an m5.  
 

Who are we talking about ?  

I'm making the distinction between guys that have enough speed to play on tour, period and the masses that will be walking into PGA Superstore looking for a driver. I wasn't referring to the upper echelon of speed on tour. Fleetwood, Fitzpatrick, Speith - they're all quick enough to fit the mould of the player I'm talking about and they generally middle it. James Robinson is not one of those guys. 

[pinhigh27]

1 hour ago, The Mad Bomber said:

That's just not been my experience. I actually lofted up my 915 a little. But I've never given up a single yard against anything else that's been released by playing Titleist drivers. My 915 kept up to M6, the TS3 was right there with SIM and TSi3 was even a hair quicker than anything else out there. Titleist drivers have always been just as good as anything for higher speed guys because they *tend* to be better players that have a habit of hitting it on the button. Miss the middle, and they've never been a forgiving driver. There's generally a direct correlation between speed and skill, albeit not an absolute one. Your question somewhat ignores that correlation and would suggest that there's no such thing as one driver being more forgiving than another. I did add the caveat of being a good ball striker with speed to boot as a condition of having your Titleist driver perform as good as anything out there.

Every driver is good with center contact. every tour pro would tell you they would take more forgiveness if they could get it 

 

you act like titleist drivers are magically amazing if you hit them on the sweet spot but suck if you don’t. No I would say generally they are below average in forgiveness and tend to be spinny causing people to need to loft down. Maybe the tsi series will change that and I think the ts series certainly made some headway there. 
 

I totally agree there is a genera correlation that people that swing faster tend to be better at golf , I’m not sure how that factors into this claim that titleist drivers are magically good for fast swinging good players but not good for everyone else, especially given the fact that historically they are on the higher spin side which is pretty obvious looking at the CGs of the heads 

 

If this isn’t true then why does titleist constantly come out with a 4 series model that is lower spinning and launching ? Do you see any tour players from other companies saying they need lower spinning gear ? I don’t 

Edited December 28, 2020 by pinhigh27

[noodle3872]

1 hour ago, The Mad Bomber said:

I'm making the distinction between guys that have enough speed to play on tour, period and the masses that will be walking into PGA Superstore looking for a driver. I wasn't referring to the upper echelon of speed on tour. Fleetwood, Fitzpatrick, Speith - they're all quick enough to fit the mould of the player I'm talking about and they generally middle it. James Robinson is not one of those guys. 

“Middle it” and “James Robinson” shouldn’t be used in the same paragraph since he struggles mightily with driver! Lol

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, The Mad Bomber said:

I'm making the distinction between guys that have enough speed to play on tour, period and the masses that will be walking into PGA Superstore looking for a driver. I wasn't referring to the upper echelon of speed on tour. Fleetwood, Fitzpatrick, Speith - they're all quick enough to fit the mould of the player I'm talking about and they generally middle it. James Robinson is not one of those guys. 

Ok ?   I guess i just read that as “ high speed tour guys “ meaning the fastest tour guys.   Everyone on tour isn’t fast.   Kevin Na for instance.   You can find faster on any community college team , anywhere.   
 

At any rate , I disagree strongly.  There is no such thing as a driver that is faster off the face for stronger players .  As in a ballspeed multiplier after a certain swing speed mark.     What you can see is a head that kills spin for even the fastest with a higher loft head , therefore increasing carry with a favorable launch vs spin equation. But it’s not multiplying ballspeed.  Period. 

[The Mad Bomber]

38 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

Every driver is good with center contact. every tour pro would tell you they would take more forgiveness if they could get it 

 

you act like titleist drivers are magically amazing if you hit them on the sweet spot but suck if you don’t. No I would say generally they are below average in forgiveness and tend to be spinny causing people to need to loft down. Maybe the tsi series will change that and I think the ts series certainly made some headway there. 
 

I totally agree there is a genera correlation that people that swing faster tend to be better at golf , I’m not sure how that factors into this claim that titleist drivers are magically good for fast swinging good players but not good for everyone else, especially given the fact that historically they are on the higher spin side which is pretty obvious looking at the CGs of the heads 

 

If this isn’t true then why does titleist constantly come out with a 4 series model that is lower spinning and launching ? Do you see any tour players from other companies saying they need lower spinning gear ? I don’t 

If that's the case, then why weren't more pro's signing 12 or 13 club deals and playing a more forgiving driver? I'm saying that I don't find I've ever had to loft down to keep spin under control with their drivers. 

As for the 4 series drivers, if I'm way off base then why don't all their contract guys gravitate towards the 4, rather than the 3? Generally speaking, you find 1 or 2 guys that play the 4. And don't play it off like there aren't variations with other companies like Sub Zero or Triple Diamond to bring spin down even more. 

 

[The Mad Bomber]

15 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Ok ?   I guess i just read that as “ high speed tour guys “ meaning the fastest tour guys.   Everyone on tour isn’t fast.   Kevin Na for instance.   You can find faster on any community college team , anywhere.   
 

At any rate , I disagree strongly.  There is no such thing as a driver that is faster off the face for stronger players .  As in a ballspeed multiplier after a certain swing speed mark.     What you can see is a head that kills spin for even the fastest with a higher loft head , therefore increasing carry with a favorable launch vs spin equation. But it’s not multiplying ballspeed.  Period. 

Okay, on that - we're in 100% agreement. There is no driver that's faster off the face for stronger players and I also agree that college players seem to be the longest group out there. Maybe I needed to say that ball striking is first and that spin doesn't get crazy with added speed in their drivers. I suppose what I'm saying that when you hit Titleist drivers out of the middle, they don't give elevated spin numbers or depressed ball speeds. I guess it just boils down to the fact that they've never been very forgiving at all. Maybe that's all I'm saying and I'm doing a poor job of articulating it. And if you're a player that doesn't need that in a driver, they've always performed very well. But again, there's always been a stigma that they're slow and spinny, and I'm saying that's generally only true for the masses that are heading into a big box store. Correlating that to my original post, the only guys complaining that the TSi3 isn't up to snuff are the ones I mention that don't exactly rip the cover off it. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by The Mad Bomber
Grammar

[pinhigh27]

23 minutes ago, The Mad Bomber said:

Okay, on that - we're in 100% agreement. There is no driver that's faster off the face for stronger players and I also agree that college players seem to be the longest group out there. Maybe I needed to say that ball striking is first and that spin doesn't get crazy with added speed in their drivers. I suppose what I'm saying that when you hit Titleist drivers out of the middle, they don't give elevated spin numbers or depressed ball speeds. I guess it just boils down to the fact that they've never been very forgiving at all. Maybe that's all I'm saying and I'm doing a poor job of articulating it. And if you're a player that doesn't need that in a driver, they've always performed very well. But again, there's always been a stigma that they're slow and spinny, and I'm saying that's generally only true for the masses that are heading into a big box store. Correlating that to my original post, the only guys complaining that the TSi3 isn't up to snuff are the ones I mention that don't exactly rip the cover off it. 

That’s not possible though. It’s not possible for the head to be slow for low ss and normal for high ones . 

[Hookasaurus Rex]

12 hours ago, philt90 said:

TSi3 vs G425 is my problem don’t know what to go with 

 

Both.  It’s what a true WRXer would do.

[The Mad Bomber]

2 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

That’s not possible though. It’s not possible for the head to be slow for low ss and normal for high ones . 

Isn't it though?

If we can agree that every head produced from every manufacturer has a maximum amount of deflection it can withstand before it deforms (caves/breaks), then it's reasonable to assume that each manufacturer, through design and face thickness, has a minimum amount of force required to achieve that maximum deflection and get maximum "spring like effect". That's into the minutia of it, but so is 1 mph of ball speed or a couple hundred RPM's on a launch monitor.

 

I've caved in/cracked/destroyed 4 TaylorMade club heads since the introduction on M1/M2. I've never caved in a single Titleist club head in my life (playing them since the 975). That tells me that it would take less force to get maximum spring-like effect from a TaylorMade head, and I'd have to guess it would be because the Titleist face is just thicker.

 

For the open record, I'm not a club designer, but different amounts of force will cause different amounts of deflection and I'd love to see the math if I'm wrong on that one.

[GolfTurkey]

This is starting to remind me of the persistent theory that the ProV1 gave high speed players extra distance in a non-linear fashion