Spieth Working with Butch

[bscinstnct]

11 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Yes, and Hogan went with a weaker grip and a flatter swing to hit a fade. Polar opposite. 
 

Butch flattened Tigers swing, Haney weakened his grip. Now he’s back to swing more with the arms.  Faldo went flatter and stronger with Ledbetter.  Johnny Miller was the greatest iron player ever with a weak grip and very upright swing. 
 

we are all different, Jordan was going to go down in history as having the greatest chicken wing since Hooters and he mucked it all up. Now he’s going to end his career like Padraig Harrington wifh 3 years of greatness and nothing but 2 decades of tinkering. 
 

 

Butch didn’t flatten TWs swing. TW wanted to and Butch was against it. Thats a big reason TW left him. TW went to Haney and of course I imagine Haney agreed and TWs flatter swing and wild driving were born ; )

 

Here is Butch and 3 paragraphs that explain why he was opposed to flattening TWs swing,

 

“When we worked together, I believed the best way for Tiger to control his distance and direction was for him to keep the club moving square to the target line for as long as possible. This required a more vertical swing plane, where the club stayed in front of his chest and his right elbow never got behind his body, and a backswing where the club rarely reached parallel.

 

Today, Tiger's swing plane is about 20 degrees more horizontal than it was when we were working together. By putting the club on this slightly flatter plane and making his swing longer than it was in 2000 and 2001, Tiger hits the ball farther now than at any other time in his life. He can also spray the driver much farther off line than he ever did during his record-setting run. If you look closely at Tiger's swing then and now, you can see that there is more power in today's motion, but the opportunity for error is also greater.

 

By getting the club on the slightly rounder plane, Tiger has, on occasion, worked the club down toward the ball rather than out toward the target. When this happens, his head dips, the clubface never squares up and the ball goes a zillion miles right of the target. You don't have to hit more than one or two of those wide-right foul balls before you start overcompensating to correct, and you pull a couple of shots.“

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/gd0608_harmontiger/amp

 

 

 

 

 

[Steele47]

 

I think Spieth should do like the Beatles did taking a trip to India.

[puttingmatt]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Butch didn’t flatten TWs swing. TW wanted to and Butch was against it. Thats a big reason TW left him. TW went to Haney and of course I imagine Haney agreed and TWs flatter swing and wild driving were born ; )

 

Here is Butch and 3 paragraphs that explain why he was opposed to flattening TWs swing,

 

“When we worked together, I believed the best way for Tiger to control his distance and direction was for him to keep the club moving square to the target line for as long as possible. This required a more vertical swing plane, where the club stayed in front of his chest and his right elbow never got behind his body, and a backswing where the club rarely reached parallel.

 

Today, Tiger's swing plane is about 20 degrees more horizontal than it was when we were working together. By putting the club on this slightly flatter plane and making his swing longer than it was in 2000 and 2001, Tiger hits the ball farther now than at any other time in his life. He can also spray the driver much farther off line than he ever did during his record-setting run. If you look closely at Tiger's swing then and now, you can see that there is more power in today's motion, but the opportunity for error is also greater.

 

By getting the club on the slightly rounder plane, Tiger has, on occasion, worked the club down toward the ball rather than out toward the target. When this happens, his head dips, the clubface never squares up and the ball goes a zillion miles right of the target. You don't have to hit more than one or two of those wide-right foul balls before you start overcompensating to correct, and you pull a couple of shots.“

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/gd0608_harmontiger/amp

 

 

Nice read, thanks

 

 

 

[Circaflex]

On 12/8/2020 at 4:24 PM, jobin said:

"I can speak for everyone in saying we all just wanna see Jordan win again."

 

Whoa, wait a minute.  I don't give a damn if YJS ever wins, or even plays, again.

Yet, here you are in a thread about YJS. Why do people post nonsense like this? To hear themselves? It's fairly easy to keep scrolling by this thread and not click your mouse on it if you dislike him and dont care about anything he is doing in regards to golf.

 

I have often been very vocal about my dislike for YJS, I think he often at times looks and acts like a baby on the course; however, I do appreciate good golf. If Butch can set YJS right, I am all for seeing it.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Circaflex

[sailfishchris]

   

On 12/10/2020 at 10:12 AM, PowerFade36 said:

Is it actually confirmed that he's working with Butch? Or is this still just a rumor

GolfWRX.....rumors? Blasphemy I say!

 

Fineprint........It might be.

[Rapidcat]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:55 AM, Hstead said:

I like him.  I hope he gets back on top.  Seems like he started sliding when he starting chasing distance.  Makes what Bryson did that much more impressive.  Not many guys are successful trying to gain distance.

Ian Baker-Finch is a good example.

 

Won a British Open (oh wait, apologies Brits, 'The Open'🙂), got ragged on by those stating how could a 6 ft 4 in guy hit it so short, tried to gain more distance and was retired from tournament golf about 4 years later.

 

Watched him open the St.Johns course at The Heritage club in Melbourne in 2001 playing with the one and only Jack Nicklaus (who designed it). He played some lovely golf that day but every 3rd drive was like hitting a foul ball, just bizarre.

 

He had a sublime short game and is a really nice guy, too.

[Rapidcat]

5 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Butch didn’t flatten TWs swing. TW wanted to and Butch was against it. Thats a big reason TW left him. TW went to Haney and of course I imagine Haney agreed and TWs flatter swing and wild driving were born ; )

 

Here is Butch and 3 paragraphs that explain why he was opposed to flattening TWs swing,

 

“When we worked together, I believed the best way for Tiger to control his distance and direction was for him to keep the club moving square to the target line for as long as possible. This required a more vertical swing plane, where the club stayed in front of his chest and his right elbow never got behind his body, and a backswing where the club rarely reached parallel.

 

Today, Tiger's swing plane is about 20 degrees more horizontal than it was when we were working together. By putting the club on this slightly flatter plane and making his swing longer than it was in 2000 and 2001, Tiger hits the ball farther now than at any other time in his life. He can also spray the driver much farther off line than he ever did during his record-setting run. If you look closely at Tiger's swing then and now, you can see that there is more power in today's motion, but the opportunity for error is also greater.

 

By getting the club on the slightly rounder plane, Tiger has, on occasion, worked the club down toward the ball rather than out toward the target. When this happens, his head dips, the clubface never squares up and the ball goes a zillion miles right of the target. You don't have to hit more than one or two of those wide-right foul balls before you start overcompensating to correct, and you pull a couple of shots.“

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/gd0608_harmontiger/amp

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoyed reading this, thanks for the link.

 

This in the article jumped out to me:

"....by overpowering the field. When you hit a 9-iron or wedge into every par 4 and hit every par 5 in two, the game is a lot easier than if you're trying to work 3-, 4- or 5-irons close to the pins. Tiger's new swing affords him the luxury of missing a few fairways because he's so long; he often hits it past bunkers or beyond the hazards that ensnarl humans of normal ability. He hits it so long and makes so many birdies that it's easy for him to say, "So what if I hit one 50 yards off line."

 

The above was written in 2008 about Tiger but could be written today about Bryson.

 

Funny how history repeats.

[Sean2]

On 12/8/2020 at 7:29 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

If it's true it may already be over, Butch said earlier this year he could fix Spieth in two seconds. 

 

Edit:  someone let me know I remembered this wrong - I've cited further down a link to the Brandel/Butch spat!

I wonder what Butch charges for a two second lesson?

[Sean2]

7 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

Ian Baker-Finch is a good example.

 

Won a British Open (oh wait, apologies Brits, 'The Open'🙂), got ragged on by those stating how could a 6 ft 4 in guy hit it so short, tried to gain more distance and was retired from tournament golf about 4 years later.

 

Watched him open the St.Johns course at The Heritage club in Melbourne in 2001 playing with the one and only Jack Nicklaus (who designed it). He played some lovely golf that day but every 3rd drive was like hitting a foul ball, just bizarre.

 

He had a sublime short game and is a really nice guy, too.

Sometimes chasing distance can be a fool's errand. At the time, Ian hit it far enough. Ultimately the game is about how many, not how far. 

 

Sure, hitting it longer is a good thing, but not if it ruins an otherwise solid swing. 

[bscinstnct]

7 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

Enjoyed reading this, thanks for the link.

 

This in the article jumped out to me:

"....by overpowering the field. When you hit a 9-iron or wedge into every par 4 and hit every par 5 in two, the game is a lot easier than if you're trying to work 3-, 4- or 5-irons close to the pins. Tiger's new swing affords him the luxury of missing a few fairways because he's so long; he often hits it past bunkers or beyond the hazards that ensnarl humans of normal ability. He hits it so long and makes so many birdies that it's easy for him to say, "So what if I hit one 50 yards off line."

 

The above was written in 2008 about Tiger but could be written today about Bryson.

 

Funny how history repeats.

 

The “new swing” put TW back in the top 10 driving distance but his distance advantage wasn’t to the extent that BDs is.

 

The thing is, as BH says in the piece, he thought TW just needed to update his driver set up to gain distance, not change his swing. TW was still using a steel head and shaft.

 

TW made the upgrade with Haney and the equipment change may account more for his distance gain than his swing change. 
 

Lately, TW has said he made the swing change because of his knee. 
 

But I don’t see Butch ever saying TW told him that. 

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Sean2 said:

I wonder what Butch charges for a two second lesson?

 

Good question.

83.33¢.

Butch is $1,500 per hour.

 

I think the two second cost is very reasonable to fix Jordan Spieth's swing.

Of course, he and his caddy will have to discuss that transaction for about 10 minutes and Jordan will self-talk (what a cringeworthy attempt to turn talking to yourself into a verb) about it for a while.

[Shilgy]

14 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Yes, and Hogan went with a weaker grip and a flatter swing to hit a fade. Polar opposite. 
 

Butch flattened Tigers swing, Haney weakened his grip. Now he’s back to swing more with the arms.  Faldo went flatter and stronger with Ledbetter.  Johnny Miller was the greatest iron player ever with a weak grip and very upright swing. 
 

we are all different, Jordan was going to go down in history as having the greatest chicken wing since Hooters and he mucked it all up. Now he’s going to end his career like Padraig Harrington wifh 3 years of greatness and nothing but 2 decades of tinkering. 
 

 

Responding to your post since you mentioned Hogan......

 

Someone explain to me, preferably with fact not opinions, how Hogan was so famously straight with his flat swing  but no other pro is straight unless they swing in an upright fashion?

[dlygrisse]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Responding to your post since you mentioned Hogan......

 

Someone explain to me, preferably with fact not opinions, how Hogan was so famously straight with his flat swing  but no other pro is straight unless they swing in an upright fashion?

The 2nd part of your question isn't necessarily true.  Matt Kuchar is really flat for his height and stature.  Certain players such as Tom Watson and Faldo got straighter when they went a bit flatter, Watson I guess went from being very upright to only semi upright.  

 

Early Hogan swung more like John Daly, prime Hogan still had a long swing but I think he had long arms for his build, it was the Hogan swing when he was older that got really flat.  

 

So the answer is when you are more upright the clubface stays square to the target line longer, if you go flatter you need to keep the clubface square to the flatter plane, if you don't do that then you get really crooked, because you are swinging more horizontal instead of vertical.  They both work, you just can't mix the fundamentals of the two. 

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

The 2nd part of your question isn't necessarily true.  Matt Kuchar is really flat for his height and stature.  Certain players such as Tom Watson and Faldo got straighter when they went a bit flatter, Watson I guess went from being very upright to only semi upright.  

 

Early Hogan swung more like John Daly, prime Hogan still had a long swing but I think he had long arms for his build, it was the Hogan swing when he was older that got really flat.  

 

So the answer is when you are more upright the clubface stays square to the target line longer, if you go flatter you need to keep the clubface square to the flatter plane, if you don't do that then you get really crooked, because you are swinging more horizontal instead of vertical.  They both work, you just can't mix the fundamentals of the two. 

My question wasn’t clear. I do not believe flat cannot work....but I read over and over on wrx... ad nauseum would be the term....that Spieth is now crooked BECAUSE he went flat and that method is inherently crooked.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Shilgy

[PorkChopExpress]

Short and crooked, not a good combo within those 6" between the ears

[Fairway14]

13 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

Enjoyed reading this, thanks for the link.

 

This in the article jumped out to me:

"....by overpowering the field. When you hit a 9-iron or wedge into every par 4 and hit every par 5 in two, the game is a lot easier than if you're trying to work 3-, 4- or 5-irons close to the pins. Tiger's new swing affords him the luxury of missing a few fairways because he's so long; he often hits it past bunkers or beyond the hazards that ensnarl humans of normal ability. He hits it so long and makes so many birdies that it's easy for him to say, "So what if I hit one 50 yards off line."

 

The above was written in 2008 about Tiger but could be written today about Bryson.

 

Funny how history repeats.

 

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

[freowho]

On 12/12/2020 at 1:31 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

LOL!!!! Not sure how do you find these things!

I've been looking everywhere for premarital coaching. What a godsend.

[Hawkeye77]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

Good question.

83.33¢.

Butch is $1,500 per hour.

 

I think the two second cost is very reasonable to fix Jordan Spieth's swing.

Of course, he and his caddy will have to discuss that transaction for about 10 minutes and Jordan will self-talk (what a cringeworthy attempt to turn talking to yourself into a verb) about it for a while.

Jordan points and shouts, "Go get that dollar and give it to Butch!"

[Hawkeye77]

[Rapidcat]

9 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

What about players that use a different swing for their driver eg ball teed up high and forward with an upward AoA vs their swing for other clubs?

[straightshot7]

13 hours ago, Shilgy said:

My question wasn’t clear. I do not believe flat cannot work....but I read over and over on wrx... ad nauseum would be the term....that Spieth is now crooked BECAUSE he went flat and that method is inherently crooked.

 

He doesn't look any flatter now to me... you?

 

[Valtiel]

16 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

Wasn't that considered to be one of the prime iron striking periods for Tiger though? His iron game certainly did not get worse under Haney with the flatter swing. Also I think your statement overall is painting with a pretty broad brush. 

[Shakespeare]

7 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

He doesn't look any flatter now to me... you?

 

I would say this....flat swings usually require more clubface rotation then vertical swings....thus the flat spot at the bottom of the swing arc is shorter in keeping the face square to target.Jordon has a vertical swing with the clubface rotation of a flat swing...ironically like Phil M does. Just harder because it requires better timing. 

[Fairway14]

8 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

What about players that use a different swing for their driver 

 

Again, wrong thinking.

Various club lengths create what may appear to be "different swings", but player technique should be the same throughout the bag.

[Rapidcat]

2 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Again, wrong thinking.

Various club lengths create what may appear to be "different swings", but player technique should be the same throughout the bag.

You haven't justified your comment by stating 'wrong thinking'.

 

Putting up 3 images of Jack who was competitive on tour till around the end of the 1980's doesn't support your statement.

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, Rapidcat said:

You haven't justified your comment by stating 'wrong thinking'.

 

Putting up 3 images of Jack who was competitive on tour till around the end of the 1980's doesn't support your statement.

 

The wrong thinking is when a player believes driver requires a "different swing" from 5-iron,  short iron etc....

[Rapidcat]

2 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The wrong thinking is when a player believes driver requires a "different swing" from 5-iron,  short iron etc....

No its not.

 

Your swing thoughts are rooted in the past.

 

Plenty of examples of current players with different driver swing set-ups to irons eg Justin Thomas.

 

[Fairway14]

59 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Wasn't that considered to be one of the prime iron striking periods for Tiger though? His iron game certainly did not get worse under Haney with the flatter swing. Also I think your statement overall is painting with a pretty broad brush. 

 

 Tiger's swing was built from a strong fundamental foundation built during his junior years , and not even a charlatan like Haney could completely ruin it.

As for "extra distance", consider that long drive competitors typically learn and practice a swing geared for driver shot distance; including techniques which are not conducive to playing the other shots required to shoot a low golf score.

[Rapidcat]

7 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

 Tiger's swing was built from a strong fundamental foundation built during his junior years , and not even a charlatan like Haney could completely ruin it.

As for "extra distance", consider that long drive competitors typically learn and practice a swing geared for driver shot distance; including techniques which are not conducive to playing the other shots required to shoot a low golf score.

So you have ignored my post because it doesn't suit your narrative and you can't refute it.

 

Here's some info to show that some players do change their driver swings chasing distance:

 

Launch angle: PGA tour player example Justin Thomas 14.2 deg w 2100 spin for a 117mph swing speed. He’s not the fastest ss on tour (plenty in the 120+mph) or the biggest body (only 5ft 9 in) but he creates the optimal conditions to be one of the longest drivers. His angle of attack is +4.8 deg!

Average angle of attack for the PGA tour is -1.3 degree (so negative AoA) but that is because of the 110mph+ driver swing speeds of tour pros, they have enough to hit slightly down (for control) and still get enough distance if you choose to favour control over distance. We also know that AoA contributes only 15 percent of your ball’s launch angle.

However, many hit slightly up on the ball eg Rory who is statistically the best driver hits up by +2.5 degrees.

 

Stats were from a PGA Tour project done with BodiTrak advisor Dr. Robert Neal (I have no affiliation nor connection with BodiTrak, just saw it in a Youtube video)

 

So you can have either an up or down AoA with a driver. Sure as eggs an upward AoA with a driver is a different swing than when that golfer is playing an iron.

 

You stated this:

It was wrong thinking in 2008 and it is wrong thinking today.

When a player becomes focused on achieving extra distance from the tee box this causes problems for the swings needed to play the hole's second shot. 

 

To refute this, consider that Bryson changed his swing, maximized his distance and won a US Open this year.

 

Not everyone suffers like Jordan Spieth or Ian Baker-Finch when chasing distance from the tee.

 

You may not like it but the golf world's moved on, for better or worse.

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

So you have ignored my post because it doesn't suit your narrative and you can't refute it.

 

 

I've replied to your post(s) a couple of times, which I believe is sufficient.

If Bryon DeChambeau wants to defy conventional wisdom and swing for the fences that's his business. If you want to hang your hat on what Bryson is doing that's your business. 

The most sensible way to play consistently good golf is to learn and practice fundamentally sound address technique (grip-posture-alignment) , because this promotes a good looking effective swing that produces good shots throughout the bag, from driver thru wedge.  This is what Nicklaus and Tiger did. It does not matter if the year is  1950, 1980, or 2020, because shooting low scores has always about making consistently effective swings which produce on target shots.