Do you really need a wedge with more loft than 55 or 56 degree in your bag...

[Pepperturbo]

On 12/11/2020 at 6:35 PM, DaveGoodrich said:

 

 

This may be true for higher cap players.  But playing more wedges isn't always just about trying to make everything a "stock" distance.  For someone with the skill to hit the partial shots you mention, more wedges will mean more options for trajectory and spin at any distances inside the pitching wedge.  For me, I think that having those options helps my scoring more than something else I could put in play if I took out a wedge.   

If it works for you, fine.  

 

I haven't seen many people that used more wedges like that, even low single digit golfers.  Most people are robotic when it comes to distance.  Pros are another topic.  I am a feel player, visualize the shot then execute.  

[Pepperturbo]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:12 AM, NRJyzr said:

 

Wanted to micro-address this point.

 

These lofts *have* been around for a long time.  A collector of classic wedges tells me a considerable number of the sand irons he has acquired are 58* or 60*.  These go back to the 40s and 30s, to the creation of the club. 

 

In the era of 53* or 52* PW lofts, many sand wedges were 58* standard.  

 

The 55* or 56* SW is as much a product of loft creep as the 20* 7 wood.

 

 

They may go back, as many clubs do, but my relative who played on tour in the 50's and early 60's says LW was NOT in most bags, including his, he used a 56'.  It was talked about. 

 

Let me reiterate, when I took up the game 30yrs back LW still was NOT that popular.  Even when I started playing in amateur events on the WC here, I had a 60', yet it wasn't in many bags.  Oh well, to each their own view.

[Divot License]

What I think many people don't consider with their wedges is what purpose they are usually going to be using that wedge for.  This is important as the the bounce and grind matter and if they don't match the general purpose of the club then that can lead to unnecessary difficulties.

 

I carry 3 wedges currently and each has a general purpose in my bag.

50 Degree - is generally used as another approach club in the same manner as my pitching wedge.  It has little bounce and grind suitable for full shot swings. 

 

54 Degree - this is my general chipping and pitching club, it has a large amount of bounce (14 degrees) and a grind that suits those shots. I will occasionally hit a full shot with it but I prefer to make smaller swings with a 50 in those situations as the 54 is not suited for that task. 

 

58 Degree - This is my bunker, flop and manipulate around the green club. This club has a moderate bounce but more importantly has a grind that allows it to be used in the manner I wish. 

 

Personally I believe the wedges should fit the tasks YOU require of them, if that means you need two, three or four wedges then so be it, as long as they fit their purpose.

[Rapidcat]

1 hour ago, Jedaigeki said:

What I think many people don't consider with their wedges is what purpose they are usually going to be using that wedge for.  This is important as the the bounce and grind matter and if they don't match the general purpose of the club then that can lead to unnecessary difficulties.

 

I carry 3 wedges currently and each has a general purpose in my bag.

50 Degree - is generally used as another approach club in the same manner as my pitching wedge.  It has little bounce and grind suitable for full shot swings. 

 

54 Degree - this is my general chipping and pitching club, it has a large amount of bounce (14 degrees) and a grind that suits those shots. I will occasionally hit a full shot with it but I prefer to make smaller swings with a 50 in those situations as the 54 is not suited for that task. 

 

58 Degree - This is my bunker, flop and manipulate around the green club. This club has a moderate bounce but more importantly has a grind that allows it to be used in the manner I wish. 

 

Personally I believe the wedges should fit the tasks YOU require of them, if that means you need two, three or four wedges then so be it, as long as they fit their purpose.

So you carry 4 (vs 3) wedges then - PW, 50, 54 & 58? How many now subconsciously consider the set PW as an old 9 iron?

 

Aside, good comments, though.🙂

[Divot License]

1 hour ago, Rapidcat said:

So you carry 4 (vs 3) wedges then - PW, 50, 54 & 58? How many now subconsciously consider the set PW as an old 9 iron?

 

Aside, good comments, though.🙂

I tend to consider the PW part of the set so more like a 10 Iron. 

 

My personal view is the wedges are the clubs I by separate from my iron set but that's just me. 

[hybrid25]

I have a 'set' sw @ 54* that has been the best sw I have ever owned.  I made this iron set from components and saved a ton of money as well as making them exactly how I like them. Bounce isn't everything when considering a sw, but 'effective' bounce is highly important. It has 12 degrees of Bounce and a very wider sole giving it a high affect the bounce, perfect for sand traps. My lob wedge is a 58 degree macdaddy 5 wide sole W grind. It is a lot similar to my sw but not quite as much effective bounce. Wedges are like a pair of shoes, you rarely see two people wearing the same pair, or using the same wedge combination. You got to go with what works for you.

[NRJyzr]

16 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

They may go back, as many clubs do, but my relative who played on tour in the 50's and early 60's says LW was NOT in most bags, including his, he used a 56'.  It was talked about. 

 

Let me reiterate, when I took up the game 30yrs back LW still was NOT that popular.  Even when I started playing in amateur events on the WC here, I had a 60', yet it wasn't in many bags.  Oh well, to each their own view.

 

My take is both of us are right.  There are some wedges in the 58* and 60* range in Ye Olde Days, and there are some in the 55* and 56* range (catalogs and specs get posted in the Classic folders from time to time).  

 

As with almost everything in golf, there are always exceptions.  🙂

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by NRJyzr

[Nixhex524]

I used to think "NO", but over the last year I have realized how important a higher lofted wedge is, 58 or more.  A 56 is versatile but I have had many situations where I have needed to get the ball up quick and have been very grateful for the added loft.  Not to say that EVERYONE needs one, but for me, I definitely do.  

[hybrid25]

An aspect to think about is people say "I can open the face of a 56-degree wedge and make it a 58 so why do I need a 58?" Well you can open a 58 and make it a 60 or 62 which you can't do with a 56.

[NRJyzr]

34 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

An aspect to think about is people say "I can open the face of a 56-degree wedge and make it a 58 so why do I need a 58?" Well you can open a 58 and make it a 60 or 62 which you can't do with a 56.

 

You can make open a 56 to 60 or 62, also.  It actually doesn't take that much.

 

I'm not advocating in either direction, just pointing out it's very possible.

 

[hybrid25]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

You can make open a 56 to 60 or 62, also.  It actually doesn't take that much.

 

I'm not advocating in either direction, just pointing out it's very possible.

 

A couple aspects you are not considering are, 1) whatever you can open up your 56 to, you can open up a 58 more, as it is much more easy to open a 58 to 60 than it is a 56 to 60, or especially to 62. Secondly, not everybody is a WRX pro and has the ability to open their wedges up like more experienced golfers can. Face it, a 56* wedge is not a cure all for all golfers, in fact, probably not for many. This is coming from somebody who uses a 54* sw, but still realizes the need for a 58 or 60 lw. Why limit yourself with you 'scoring clubs' ?

[NRJyzr]

33 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

A couple aspects you are not considering are, 1) whatever you can open up your 56 to, you can open up a 58 more, as it is much more easy to open a 58 to 60 than it is a 56 to 60, or especially to 62. Secondly, not everybody is a WRX pro and has the ability to open their wedges up like more experienced golfers can. Face it, a 56* wedge is not a cure all for all golfers, in fact, probably not for many. This is coming from somebody who uses a 54* sw, but still realizes the need for a 58 or 60 lw. Why limit yourself with you 'scoring clubs' ?

 

My response was only that it's possible to do the same thing, no more than that.  The way I'd read your post, it seemed to be saying it wasn't possible. 

 

I'm not intending any sort of "should this" or "shouldnt this" as part of my comment.  🙂

 

FWIW, I carry a 58* as my highest loft, sometimes go to a 60*.

 

[JCAG]

I tried a 64* wedge one time. My forehead hurt like hell for a week from where the ball hit it.

[hybrid25]

I wonder how much  one could change the Loft on say a 58-degree lob wedge ? Could it be comfortably opened to 64°? Could it be closed to 54 degrees?

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

I wonder how much  one could change the Loft on say a 58-degree lob wedge ? Could it be comfortably opened to 64°? Could it be closed to 54 degrees?

I open 58° quite a bit for short flop shots (30° - 40° relative to stance).  That should be >= 64°.  I also hit shut face 58° (20° closed at least) which should be <= 54°.  While I don't hit these shots often, I do practice them periodically.

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, hybrid25 said:

I wonder how much  one could change the Loft on say a 58-degree lob wedge ? Could it be comfortably opened to 64°? Could it be closed to 54 degrees?

 

I remember seeing a chart where it displayed the effective lofts of various degrees of opening wedges.  If said chart was accurate,it takes less opening than you'd think (or so I felt) to get a 58* to play like 64*.  

 

[hybrid25]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I open 58° quite a bit for short flop shots (30° - 40° relative to stance).  That should be >= 64°.  I also hit shut face 58° (20° closed at least) which should be <= 54°.  While I don't hit these shots often, I do practice them periodically.

It is interesting how versatile a 58* wedge can be, and any loft wedge for that matter. Although, I imagine most golfers don't feel comfortable opening or closing the face, shaft lean, and stance, and would rather square up like they would do with all clubs. The more a golfer alternates from what is normal the more difficult the shot becomes.

I would imagine about 10 hc and below could be consistent opening and closing their wedges. Point is, for most golfers, a 58* would be required, because they wouldn't enjoy opening a wedge to obtain 58* or even 60*. Also, 58* is enough loft for the majority of golfers as well. JMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dlygrisse]

Everyone sort of has a sweet spot with this.  For me it’s 58*, some it’s 64*. I used to use a 60* but it was a specialty club, my go to was a 56, when I discovered the 58* it became my go to. 
 

i used to be really good at hitting flops, but I just don’t practice them much anymore, the 58* gives me enough loft 90% of the time without much face manipulation.  If I need to I can flop it with the 58*.  If all I had was a 56 I feel like I’d have to open it too often. 
Fun story, It’s well known Jack used a 55 or 56 most of his career, and his wedge game was the worst part of his game. what’s  not widely known is that in 1980 after he worked with Phil Rodgers they bent his SW to 58, and his PW to 52. The main shot he perfected was a soft floating pitch, sort of a “use the bounce “shot with a pretty square face, using a 58. Jack was a really good tour level pitcher of the ball from the age 40 on. 

[ThinkingPlus]

8 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

It is interesting how versatile a 58* wedge can be, and any loft wedge for that matter. Although, I imagine most golfers don't feel comfortable opening or closing the face, shaft lean, and stance, and would rather square up like they would do with all clubs. The more a golfer alternates from what is normal the more difficult the shot becomes.

I would imagine about 10 hc and below could be consistent opening and closing their wedges. Point is, for most golfers, a 58* would be required, because they wouldn't enjoy opening a wedge to obtain 58* or even 60*. Also, 58* is enough loft for the majority of golfers as well. JMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are probably right about handicap, but it needn't be that way.  Anyone should be able to practice short game enough to become proficient with a variety of shots.  Hitting a drive 300 yards for many is limited by physical ability.  Hitting an open faced 58° 10 yards to a short sided pin is only limited by technique (easy to learn) and practice (don't everyone shoot me - I understand finding time can be challenging).  The ideal is for everyone to get their game where it is only limited by how well one hits long shots.

[hybrid25]

16 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You are probably right about handicap, but it needn't be that way.  Anyone should be able to practice short game enough to become proficient with a variety of shots.  Hitting a drive 300 yards for many is limited by physical ability.  Hitting an open faced 58° 10 yards to a short sided pin is only limited by technique (easy to learn) and practice (don't everyone shoot me - I understand finding time can be challenging).  The ideal is for everyone to get their game where it is only limited by how well one hits long shots.

Yes, but most higher hc golfers don't practice with their lw, or even go to the range to practice any club. They play golf, then go home, repeat. If they do go to the range they generally take their driver and a couple irons, never a lw. Honestly, I never practiced my wedges until I started playing tournaments at private clubs where they have those type facilities because there just isn't the opportunity to practice lw shots at most courses. Sure, most courses have driving ranges, but that's just what they are, driving ranges. A couple of courses I play at have sand trap and wedge facilities and I really take advantage of practicing intensely, but funny thing is, the vast majority of golfers are at the driving range, even when a wedge facility is available. Wedge practice is boring to many golfers, but I love them.

[dlygrisse]

2 minutes ago, hybrid25 said:

Yes, but most higher hc golfers don't practice with their lw, or even go to the range to practice any club. They play golf, then go home, repeat. If they do go to the range they generally take their driver and a couple irons, never a lw. Honestly, I never practiced my wedges until I started playing tournaments at private clubs where they have those type facilities because there just isn't the opportunity to practice lw shots at most courses. Sure, most courses have driving ranges, but that's just what they are, driving ranges. A couple of courses I play at have sand trap and wedge facilities and I really take advantage of practicing intensely, but funny thing is, the vast majority of golfers are at the driving range, even when a wedge facility is available. Wedge practice is boring to many golfers, but I love them.

I’m with you, to me there is no better way to decompress than to go spend an hour or two around a practice green.  Some people like to jog, workout or meditate.  I like chipping and pitching.  My body is so screwed up I can’t really hit many balls anymore, so I just work on getting up and down, because I know I’m  Going to miss greens. 

[joostin]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

I remember seeing a chart where it displayed the effective lofts of various degrees of opening wedges.  If said chart was accurate,it takes less opening than you'd think (or so I felt) to get a 58* to play like 64*.  

 

@hybrid25 @ThinkingPlus Here's the chart:

 

58° wedge at 12° open to the target line is basically a 64° wedge (rotated open 2 minutes on a clock face).

 

58° opened 40° is effectively an 84° wedge!

 

58° closed 20° is effectively a 47° wedge.

 

This is all without any shaft lean or going toe up or toe down.  The thread below explained the lies needed to "correct" where the face is pointing.  You can interpolate different wedge lofts from the table, or for any specific loft just ask.  Closing the face changes the effective loft by the same increments on the table.

 

54° (right) at effectively the same loft as a 60° wedge (left) :

 

54° at effectively an 80° loft:

 

Original thread:  

 

Printout if you want to test how much you open or close the face:

leading_edge_face_angle-minute_printout.pdf

 

Side spin, hand and stance adjustments, grind, and turf conditions aside.... how about just one wedge?!

[jmorrow020]

I might be an outlier here, but I am actually one to use my 60 on far more shots than my 56. If I was going to get rid of one of them it would be the 56. I have a lot of muscle out of my 60 and the small gap in front of it is easily guarded by a soft 52. Idk why... I just got really really comfortable with my 60 to hit almost any shot 110 and in. 

[nitram]

13 hours ago, joostin said:

@hybrid25 @ThinkingPlus Here's the chart:

 

58° wedge at 12° open to the target line is basically a 64° wedge (rotated open 2 minutes on a clock face).

 

58° opened 40° is effectively an 84° wedge!

 

58° closed 20° is effectively a 47° wedge.

 

This is all without any shaft lean or going toe up or toe down.  The thread below explained the lies needed to "correct" where the face is pointing.  You can interpolate different wedge lofts from the table, or for any specific loft just ask.  Closing the face changes the effective loft by the same increments on the table.

 

54° (right) at effectively the same loft as a 60° wedge (left) :

 

54° at effectively an 80° loft:

 

Original thread:  

 

Printout if you want to test how much you open or close the face:

leading_edge_face_angle-minute_printout.pdf 128.27 kB · 3 downloads

 

Side spin, hand and stance adjustments, grind, and turf conditions aside.... how about just one wedge?!

 

Thanks for digging this one up!! I looked for about an hour last night and didn't find it. It's worth a sticky.

[Rapidcat]

So as the OP(er) of this thread, I have been amazed at the interest level and number of replies.

 

It has given me much to consider for my own bag composition, which was the inspiration for the thread, with a companion motivation of sharing opinions for everyone’s consumption (yeah, I know, it is a forum after all…).

 

Thought I would share where my head is at after considering the thread responses.

 

I currently play 4 wedges incl. a 55 deg SW and a 58 deg LW. I will stay with this set-up as I get more benefit for my game by bagging the 58 rather than playing an alternative, say something else at the top of my bag. For those that might be questioning the loft ‘closeness’ of 55 deg to 58 deg, note that 58 is 1/2 inch shorter in club length so my gapping is fine for full shots. 4 wedges gives me the most shot possibilities.

 

Plenty though have a preference for 3 wedges as they can accomplish 95% or whatever of shot requirements and free up a bag slot. If I ever wanted to game only 3 wedges for whatever reason (eg bag setup for a specific course), this can still work for me with the right 55 or 56 deg as I am competent at opening the club face of my 55 deg SW. However, I have less flexibility with 3 wedges so may find the odd shot where my club choice is forced to be less than ideal.

 

Treating your wedges as a ‘team’ with a combination of lofts and grinds that both suit you and provide the best shot making flexibility is optimum. To this end I have just bought a 2^nd hand 55 deg TM RSI 1 wedge with the ATV grind to do some trialing of that sole setup. I’m not worried about the quality of this specific club, just want to test the grind’s suitability for me (and it only cost $20 and used sparingly by previous owner). So far, I am finding it very flexible for face manipulation off grass and also decent out of bunkers with reasonable sand depth.

 

Many state that they love one or more of their specialty wedges and seem to have more than just a utilitarian connection with a club. I can relate to this, I love my Nike 58 deg Toe Sweep for specialty shots around the green; it is also my go-to chipping club with which I can play a variety of shots. There’s a mental benefit from this connection providing confidence under the pressure to execute the shot.

 

Thanks to all those who shared their thoughts and I’m expecting some will take away other content applicable to them.

[DaveGoodrich]

On 12/24/2020 at 5:09 PM, joostin said:

@hybrid25 @ThinkingPlus Here's the chart:

 

58° wedge at 12° open to the target line is basically a 64° wedge (rotated open 2 minutes on a clock face).

 

58° opened 40° is effectively an 84° wedge!

 

58° closed 20° is effectively a 47° wedge.

 

This is all without any shaft lean or going toe up or toe down.  The thread below explained the lies needed to "correct" where the face is pointing.  You can interpolate different wedge lofts from the table, or for any specific loft just ask.  Closing the face changes the effective loft by the same increments on the table.

 

54° (right) at effectively the same loft as a 60° wedge (left) :

 

54° at effectively an 80° loft:

 

Original thread:  

 

Printout if you want to test how much you open or close the face:

leading_edge_face_angle-minute_printout.pdf 128.27 kB · 7 downloads

 

Side spin, hand and stance adjustments, grind, and turf conditions aside.... how about just one wedge?!

 

Opening the face (pointing the face right of the target, for right handed golfers) doesn't add loft by itself.  The amount of loft increase per degree of opening shown on these figures would only be technically correct if you could actually hit the ball "west" with a club face that is facing "northwest."  Modern ball flight laws say this is not how it works.  The ball is mostly going to go the directly the face is pointing. 

 

When we open the face to add loft, we are actually just laying the club shaft back (opposite of "delofting") to add loft.  You could do this by weakening your grip and moving the ball way forward in your stance, and still swing towards the target.  But it would be very hard to make good "ball first" contact with the ball so far forward.  So instead, we lay the club back, but rotate our stance and swing "open" to keep the face pointing roughly where we want the ball to go.      

 

The more loft you want to add to a wedge, the more you have to lay it back, and therefore the more you have to aim your stance and swing left in order to start the ball on your target line.  Also, to lay the shaft back far enough to turn a 54 into a 60, you are going to add a lot of bounce, which may or may not be helpful in a given situation.  So you can't have a high bounce sand wedge, and expect it to act like a low bounce lob wedge when "opened."      

[joostin]

5 hours ago, DaveGoodrich said:

 

Opening the face (pointing the face right of the target, for right handed golfers) doesn't add loft by itself.  The amount of loft increase per degree of opening shown on these figures would only be technically correct if you could actually hit the ball "west" with a club face that is facing "northwest."  Modern ball flight laws say this is not how it works.  The ball is mostly going to go the directly the face is pointing. 

 

When we open the face to add loft, we are actually just laying the club shaft back (opposite of "delofting") to add loft.  You could do this by weakening your grip and moving the ball way forward in your stance, and still swing towards the target.  But it would be very hard to make good "ball first" contact with the ball so far forward.  So instead, we lay the club back, but rotate our stance and swing "open" to keep the face pointing roughly where we want the ball to go.      

 

The more loft you want to add to a wedge, the more you have to lay it back, and therefore the more you have to aim your stance and swing left in order to start the ball on your target line.  Also, to lay the shaft back far enough to turn a 54 into a 60, you are going to add a lot of bounce, which may or may not be helpful in a given situation.  So you can't have a high bounce sand wedge, and expect it to act like a low bounce lob wedge when "opened."      

Right, it only makes sense to open so much given your sole shape and ground conditions.  Hardpan... good luck!  Essentially we are laying the club back when opening, like you said, and not necessarily with a forward ball position.  In the title of the chart above it shows the assumption of leading edge parallel to the ground with no shaft lean (vertical shaft at face on view).  The face projects away from the target line.  To correct the direction we have the option of aiming left or lowering the hands (bringing the toe up) or a combination of both.  My original thread shows another chart towards the end of the post and a diagram showing this lie "correction":  https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1741304-lofts-when-opening-up-a-wedge-3d-model-testing-observations/ 

 

Here's a pic of a 56° wedge rotated 20° open to target line, vertical shaft (face on view), aiming at the target, but hands lowered to bring the toe up 8° so the face projects down the target line.  In doing so we add a little more loft, so instead of 67° it's 68° to the ground.  We could instead aim 20° to the left to get the face protecting down the target line keeping the leading edge parallel to the ground - not talking about swing path vs face angle, just where the face is pointing.  Or we can do a little of both.

[shoot4par]

Jack would say no. My 60* comes in handy about once a round. (Shortside bunker, Downhill chip on fast greens, some other anomaly shot.) I have an extra space so I carry one. I go 4 Wood, 19* hybrid, 4 iron. I'd say no but it has uses. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by shoot4par

[hybrid25]

The thing about opening, closing, manipulating a wedge to obtain a different loft is that the majority of golfers aren't very good at it. A few degrees either way is not bad, but more then that is going to cause most golfers trouble. Most golfers want to swing pretty consistent and the same way, because frankly, they don't practice enough to have confidence doing attaining the skill set. For more accomplished golfer, not really a problem. I have a 54*sw that I really like, high bounce and wide sole, that I use from other places around the green besides the sand, but if I need to attain a lob type shot I'm not going to open my 54*sw to 58 or 60* to make the shot, I'm going to pull out my 58*lw to perform that task. Could I make the lob shot with my 54*? Yes, but I wouldn't be as confident, the 58* is easier to use.  Some might ask "do you really need a driver when you have a 3w in the bag that travels almost as far?" My answer is no, you don't "need" a driver, but it sure makes things easier.

[DaveGoodrich]

14 minutes ago, joostin said:

Right, it only makes sense to open so much given your sole shape and ground conditions.  Hardpan... good luck!  Essentially we are laying the club back when opening, like you said, and not necessarily with a forward ball position.  In the title of the chart above it shows the assumption of leading edge parallel to the ground with no shaft lean (vertical shaft at face on view).  The face projects away from the target line.  To correct the direction we have the option of aiming left or lowering the hands (bringing the toe up) or a combination of both.  My original thread shows another chart towards the end of the post and a diagram showing this lie "correction":  https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1741304-lofts-when-opening-up-a-wedge-3d-model-testing-observations/ 

 

Here's a pic of a 56° wedge rotated 20° open to target line, vertical shaft (face on view), aiming at the target, but hands lowered to bring the toe up 8° so the face projects down the target line.  In doing so we add a little more loft, so instead of 67° it's 68° to the ground.  We could instead aim 20° to the left to get the face protecting down the target line keeping the leading edge parallel to the ground - not talking about swing path vs face angle, just where the face is pointing.  Or we can do a little of both.

 

Yes, lowering the handle (in the lie direction) will point the face left. Thanks for putting some numbers to this concept.  Heel relief is actually intended to allow the leading edge to stay down when doing this, not when "opening" the face.