How do you officials determine when to implement lift/clean/place?

[f22beaver]

Watching the Womens Open today and this past Saturday I feel like I've seen chunky mud covered golf balls more than I usually would.  So I get that everyone plays by the same rules.  But thus my question, when do you officials decide there's "enough" moisture/mud/ill conditions to warrant implementing lift/clean/place?

[dmecca2]

The USGA will NEVER play lift/clean/place. That's just their thing. I've played a couple qualifiers where my nearest casual water drop would be 100 yards back, and we still played the ball down. 

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, f22beaver said:

  But thus my question, when do you officials decide there's "enough" moisture/mud/ill conditions to warrant implementing lift/clean/place?

While this is a subjective question, I'll point out that a careful Committee for a stroke play competition  may institute LCP or LCR even before the course gets wet.  A critical objective is to do what you can to make sure all players have access to the preferred lie Local Rule for the same number of holes, so instituting it early, when there's a storm coming, might be helpful.  (Different for match play.)

 

 

 

Edit:  See my correction on the following a few posts down:

 

From Committee Procedures Section 8E on preferred lies:

 

It is not advisable to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who had more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Sawgrass

[Halebopp]

If there are a lot of areas on the fairways that would need to be marked as Ground Under Repair, you are likely better off using Preferred Lies. This is especially the case in spring when the grass hasn't fully recovered from the winter yet, there are muddy areas that don't qualify as temporary water etc.

 

The other situation is when the course is wet, or, like Sawgrass said, likely to get wet during the day to the point that finding complete relief from temporary water might become problematic.

 

This is what the ruling bodies say about it:

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8e#e-3

 

@Sawgrass Where did you get that from? It's definitely not allowed to be implemented once a stroke-play round has begun, at least on this side of the pond. (Check the link above.)

[f22beaver]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the background knowledge.

 

[Sawgrass]

14 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

If there are a lot of areas on the fairways that would need to be marked as Ground Under Repair, you are likely better off using Preferred Lies. This is especially the case in spring when the grass hasn't fully recovered from the winter yet, there are muddy areas that don't qualify as temporary water etc.

 

The other situation is when the course is wet, or, like Sawgrass said, likely to get wet during the day to the point that finding complete relief from temporary water might become problematic.

 

This is what the ruling bodies say about it:

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/committee-procedures/8e#e-3

 

@Sawgrass Where did you get that from? It's definitely not allowed to be implemented once a stroke-play round has begun, at least on this side of the pond. (Check the link above.)

Yikes!  If I go directly to the USGA's section on Committee Procedures, I see the language you provide.  (I trust that this is the up-to-date version.)  What I had done was Google the issue, and came upon a USGA link with the (presumably outdated) language that I provided.  You can find it by scrolling way down on this link:  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/committee-procedures/rule-8.html

 

Since that URL said "2019" I trusted that it was valid, but I'm glad you point out otherwise, thanks.

[Sawgrass]

Edit:  See correction a few posts later.

 

 

 

I see that it's (incorrectly?) stated for both E-2 and E-3:

E-2 Cleaning Ball

Purpose. When conditions such as wet ground conditions throughout parts of the course may cause mud to stick to the ball, the Committee can choose to allow the player to lift, clean and replace the ball in the general area. Such relief should be limited to those portions of the course where needed.

While the Local Rule for Preferred Lies (Model Local Rule E-3) is designed for use only in areas cut to fairway height or less in the general area, this Local Rule can be used throughout the general area or restricted to specific areas. The Committee could choose to use both Local Rules permitting preferred lies in the fairways and cleaning the ball elsewhere in the general area.

It is not advisable to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who had more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (for example, if it must be limited to fairway only), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

Model Local Rule E-2

“When a player’s ball lies in [identify area, such as the general area, at the 6th hole, in the general area cut to fairway height or less, etc.], the ball may be lifted cleaned and replaced without penalty. The player must mark the spot before lifting the ball (see Rule 14.1) and the ball must be replaced on its original spot (see Rule 14.2).

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.”

E-3 Preferred Lies

Purpose. When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for “preferred lies” (also known as “winter rules”) to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

It is not authorised to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who have more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (including the size of the relief area and if it may only be used in the fairway), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

Model Local Rule E-3

“When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less [or identify a specific area such as ‘on the fairway of the 6th hole’], the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:

• Reference Point: Spot of the original ball.

• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: [Specify size of relief area, such as one club-length, one scorecard length or 6 inches] from the reference point, but with these limits:

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:

  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and

  • Must be in the general area.

In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.”

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Sawgrass

[Halebopp]

@Sawgrass Interestingly enough, even the R&A considers it only "not advisable" for Cleaning Ball and I checked the Finnish version and it's the same. So it seems like the only issue is with the E-3.

[Sawgrass]

Oh, wait!  Now I see that it's "not advisable" for E-2, and "not authorized" for E-3.  Anyway, thanks again Halebop!

[Halebopp]

9 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Oh, wait!  Now I see that it's "not advisable" for E-2, and "not authorized" for E-3.  Anyway, thanks again Halebop!

 

No worries, glad to be of service! I also learned yet another intricacy as I wouldn't have thought implementing E-2 during a stroke-play round would've been allowed. 

[Fairway14]

2 hours ago, f22beaver said:

Watching the Womens Open today and this past Saturday I feel like I've seen chunky mud covered golf balls more than I usually would.  So I get that everyone plays by the same rules.  But thus my question, when do you officials decide there's "enough" moisture/mud/ill conditions to warrant implementing lift/clean/place?

 

The USGA Rules of Golf allows relief from casual water and embedded ball, which is sufficient to allow fair play during wet conditions. Playing shots with mud on the ball is an integral part of the game. Lift-clean-place is essentially cheating and there is never a good sense reason to implement same. 

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

Lift-clean-place is essentially cheating and there is never a good sense reason to implement same. 

 

There are a number of experienced referees and committee members here who might disagree with you. That said, lift, clean and place is an option and you needn't sully your round by availing yourself of it.

[LeoLeo99]

8 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

While this is a subjective question, I'll point out that a careful Committee for a stroke play competition  may institute LCP or LCR even before the course gets wet.  A critical objective is to do what you can to make sure all players have access to the preferred lie Local Rule for the same number of holes, so instituting it early, when there's a storm coming, might be helpful.  (Different for match play.)

 

 

 

Edit:  See my correction on the following a few posts down:

 

From Committee Procedures Section 8E on preferred lies:

 

It is not advisable to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who had more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

That's not what the OP meant by "when".  😙

 

OP was asking how bad does it have to get before you implement preferred lies or lcp or whatever it's called.   On an individual level, what is your criteria?

[rogolf]

10 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

That's not what the OP meant by "when".  😙

 

OP was asking how bad does it have to get before you implement preferred lies or lcp or whatever it's called.   On an individual level, what is your criteria?

As above, when it is likely to interfere with "fair play" (my definition applies, and I'm a harsh judge) and when it may prevent cancelling a round.

E-3 Preferred Lies

Purpose. When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for “preferred lies” (also known as “winter rules”) to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

It is not authorised to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round.

Edited December 15, 2020 by rogolf

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

The USGA Rules of Golf allows relief from casual water and embedded ball, which is sufficient to allow fair play during wet conditions. Playing shots with mud on the ball is an integral part of the game. Lift-clean-place is essentially cheating and there is never a good sense reason to implement same. 

Why? OP wants to understand a bit, interesting stuff is posted in response and it"s the old "cheating" thing which, when implemented under the rules, it clearly is not.  

 

The faux outrage over LCP or preferred lies still is a mystery to me. If your baby buns weren't wiped with a featherie I don't get it. 

[Fairway14]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Why? OP wants to understand a bit, interesting stuff is posted in response and it"s the old "cheating" thing which, when implemented under the rules, it clearly is not.  

 

Why what ?

Again, the Rules of Golf grants relief without penalty from embedded balls and casual water. Those are the two conditions (emanating from rain and, or, wet conditions) where relief should be allowed.

If the OP "wants to understand" why particular course committees and, or, tournaments endorse  lift-clean-place the answer is  that is some people don't mind cheating and like to make up their own rules.

[sailfishchris]

11 hours ago, f22beaver said:

Watching the Womens Open today and this past Saturday I feel like I've seen chunky mud covered golf balls more than I usually would.  So I get that everyone plays by the same rules.  But thus my question, when do you officials decide there's "enough" moisture/mud/ill conditions to warrant implementing lift/clean/place?

That point which you talk of is when they completely screw up another Championship.....mission accomplished! LOL!

[Mr. Bean]

14 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Why what ?

Again, the Rules of Golf grants relief without penalty from embedded balls and casual water. Those are the two conditions (emanating from rain and, or, wet conditions) where relief should be allowed.

 

 

As explained earlier in this thread for the smoothness of play it may be necessary to invoke LCP when the course is very wet as taking relief from temporary water would take an unnecessary long time and would deteriorate the pace of play.

 

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Why what ?

Again, the Rules of Golf grants relief without penalty from embedded balls and casual water. Those are the two conditions (emanating from rain and, or, wet conditions) where relief should be allowed.

If the OP "wants to understand" why particular course committees and, or, tournaments endorse  lift-clean-place the answer is  that is some people don't mind cheating and like to make up their own rules.

Provision for Local Rules to deal with, for example, mud which interferes with play goes back with the R&A to 1909, so maybe Woodrow Wilson was all worked up over it.

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, dmecca2 said:

The USGA will NEVER play lift/clean/place. That's just their thing. I've played a couple qualifiers where my nearest casual water drop would be 100 yards back, and we still played the ball down. 

 

Funny you should say that. I have watched quite a few US Opens in my time where there has been either LCP or LCR in force, not to mention many PGA Tour comps.

 

What you describe is IMO bad choice by the Committee as around here that would not be likely to take place.

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

As explained earlier in this thread for the smoothness of play it may be necessary to invoke LCP when the course is very wet as taking relief from temporary water would take an unnecessary long time and would deteriorate the pace of play.

 

 

 

The Rules of Golf allow for relief from casual water. I've never come upon a casual water lie where relief could not be found within 20 yards of where the ball originally lay. There is no reason that taking relief from an embedded ball or casual water should cause any significant delay to pace of play.

And lift-clean-place has nothing to do with causal water relief.

[sui generis]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Funny you should say that. I have watched quite a few US Opens in my time where there has been either LCP or LCR in force, not to mention many PGA Tour comps.

 

What you describe is IMO bad choice by the Committee as around here that would not be likely to take place.

 

Old Bean, you're misremembering. While TV golf, that is the PGA Tour, loves them some LCP, the USGA does not.

Edited December 15, 2020 by sui generis

[rogolf]

22 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Old Bean, you're misremembering. While TV golf, that is the PGA Tour, loves them some LCP, the USGA does not.

Agree.  I don't know of any US Open, men's women's or senior's, that has ever implemented lift, clean and place or lift, clean and replace.  Remember, those tournaments are run by the USGA, not by the PGATour or the PGA of America.

Mr. Bean, you could at least identify one of the many US Opens that you've watched that used lift, clean and place, or lift, clean, replace, for reference and our education!

Edited December 15, 2020 by rogolf

[Fairway14]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Funny you should say that. I have watched quite a few US Opens in my time where there has been either LCP or LCR in force, not to mention many PGA Tour comps.

 

What you describe is IMO bad choice by the Committee as around here that would not be likely to take place.

 

There has never been a USGA hosted event which permitted lift-clean-place.

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Why what ?

Again, the Rules of Golf grants relief without penalty from embedded balls and casual water. Those are the two conditions (emanating from rain and, or, wet conditions) where relief should be allowed.

If the OP "wants to understand" why particular course committees and, or, tournaments endorse  lift-clean-place the answer is  that is some people don't mind cheating and like to make up their own rules.

Using LCP isn’t making up your own rules, it’s applying a Ruling-Bodies-approved Model Local Rule (E-3).

 

Also, there are occasions when a ball plugs and releases in a mud-covered state and doesn’t come to rest in temporary water. LCP and LCR are the only legal ways to deal with that (randomly unfair) problem when your ball is off the putting green.

 

You’re welcome to dislike the LR, but let’s not pretend it doesn’t have its merits. 

[Fairway14]

1 minute ago, Sawgrass said:

Using LCP isn’t making up your own rules, it’s applying a Ruling-Bodies-approved Model Local Rule (E-3).

 

 

"Local Rule" is the USGA's way of letting the club pro (trying to appease his membership) and , or, the club's "rules committee" (hackers), cheat without feeling guilty about it.

Again, from rain or wet conditions casual water and, or, embedded ball relief is permitted without penalty. These two Rules are more than sufficient to allow fair and reasonable play.

The people complaining about mud on the ball are likely the same people who think they should be entitled to relief from a divot. Sorry, the answer is no.

[Sawgrass]

9 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

"Local Rule" is the USGA's way of letting the club pro (trying to appease his membership) and , or, the club's "rules committee" (hackers), cheat without feeling guilty about it.

Again, from rain or wet conditions casual water and, or, embedded ball relief is permitted without penalty. These two Rules are more than sufficient to allow fair and reasonable play.

The people complaining about mud on the ball are likely the same people who think they should be entitled to relief from a divot. Sorry, the answer is no.

This local rule is approved by both the USGA and R&A, both of which also soundly reject your curveball about divot hole relief.  
 

I guess you think neither entity is as wise as you, but I am not convinced. 

[Fairway14]

3 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

 

I guess you think neither entity is as wise as you, but I am not convinced. 

 

I have no comment about my "wisdom" but I have reasonably good reading comprehension and it is clear that the USGA Rule Book gives cheaters a pass by allowing club pros/course committees to make up whatever local rules they want for their own course's play.

[Halebopp]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I have no comment about my "wisdom" but I have reasonably good reading comprehension and it is clear that the USGA Rule Book gives cheaters a pass by allowing club pros/course committees to make up whatever local rules they want for their own course's play.

 

You might want to actually study the Committee Procedures before spouting out such alternative facts about local rules.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I have no comment about my "wisdom" but I have reasonably good reading comprehension and it is clear that the USGA Rule Book gives cheaters a pass by allowing club pros/course committees to make up whatever local rules they want for their own course's play.

Just why is it cheating? At this time of year many/most courses here are covered in worm casts. A rolling ball picks up the mud like a snowball. It is very likely that one side of the ball will have a 3 or 4 mm coating of mud. Is it unreasonable for the player to be able to hit the surface of the ball? Further, if there is a 'clean' face the flight of the ball will be seriously affected. Is this an intentional feature of the rules? 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Newby