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How do you officials determine when to implement lift/clean/place?


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57 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Actually, yes that would be a great improvement over the way most people play the game.

And would likely improve their score!  Going for the shot with the highest probability of success is trying to make the best score for the hole.  Trying that 220 yard shot over the water to a short-sided flag, just because you made it once in 200 tries, is foolish and is not trying for the best score on the hole.

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All of which makes me ponder, if you accuse someone of being a cheat when they are not, does that make you a liar?

I had to put down my popcorn - it's like a Nature Channel, "When Rules Gurus Turn On Each Other At The Waterhole (Penalty Area On The Serengeti)", but then I realized it was just Beaner being Beaner.

It’s one thing to feed him, but dessert, too?

On 12/20/2020 at 3:24 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

I had to put down my popcorn - it's like a Nature Channel, "When Rules Gurus Turn On Each Other At The Waterhole (Penalty Area On The Serengeti)", but then I realized it was just Beaner being Beaner.

 

Having gone back and read a few posts, I see where Sawgrass is coming from --- if a temporary rule allowing preferred lies, whatever, is in place and you don't avail yourself of the option then what is the motive behind it?  I suppose somewhere there is some weird golfer who would see that as an opportunity in a comp or ordinary round for handicap building, assuming that's a possible result. 

 

I don't think he's suggesting not availing yourself of the option is "cheating" in general, but maybe he'll speak to that.

 

I've played some balls from roots in league where we play "winter rules" all spring, summer and fall (and, lol, never play in the winter), and always play it down in league and in general so I see where you are coming from.  I don't see how I'm trying to make the best score possible by rolling/fluffing my ball -- I don't see those lies as easier, just promoting bad swing habits, and I'm not trying to make my best score once a week trying to play unusual lies, i.e. "preferred".  The one or two times a year I don't move my ball from a root, for example -- if that's "cheating" come and get me!

 

It seems to me that you share the narrow mind of another poster...

 

For once I was trying to take the perspective of a player of another skill level than mine but neither you nor Sawgrass could comprehend it. Sawgrass simply leans on a text written without thinking about it further and you Hawkie follow...

 

As I tried to explain before, high handicap female players have completely different problems in trying to make their best score than us men, especially us on the low end of handicap. Unfortunately you guys cannot handle such thinking. Too bad, narrow attitude is not a benefit, not even here.

 

Merry Christmas.

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On 12/14/2020 at 10:19 AM, dmecca2 said:

The USGA will NEVER play lift/clean/place. That's just their thing. I've played a couple qualifiers where my nearest casual water drop would be 100 yards back, and we still played the ball down. 


Oddly, the PGA tour will play lift/clean/place ... but a USGA amateur event won’t? I don’t understand it. 

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6 minutes ago, dcm325 said:


Oddly, the PGA tour will play lift/clean/place ... but a USGA amateur event won’t? I don’t understand it. 

 

Don't forget, the PGA Tour is a business. It's a TV show who's only purpose in the universe is to get you to watch advertising between watching men in slacks putting. 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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1 minute ago, sui generis said:

 

Don't forget, the PGA Tour is a business. It's a TV show who's only purpose in the universe is to get you to watch advertising between watching men in slacks putting. 


Agreed, but I think USGA committees should lax a little on the “bravado” they show when it comes to the this. Last year, Mid-Am qualifier.. literally every ball plugged in the fairway. Free relief taken, approach shot lands in the fringe, same cut as the fairway, 1” of mud on the side. Get bent nerd! 

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7 minutes ago, dcm325 said:


Agreed, but I think USGA committees should lax a little on the “bravado” they show when it comes to the this. Last year, Mid-Am qualifier.. literally every ball plugged in the fairway. Free relief taken, approach shot lands in the fringe, same cut as the fairway, 1” of mud on the side. Get bent nerd! 

 

You're right, mud balls happen. If you played college golf, you will remember that D1 golf doesn't do LCP either. Some players manage their games to minimize them. But, as we all know, luck plays a role in golf . . . it comes with the territory.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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17 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The PGA Tour wants competitions to be fair, the USGA wants competitions to be hard.

 

I might say that the PGA Tour wants their TV show to be entertaining. However, I won't argue with your thoughts on the USGA. 😉

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Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

I might say that the PGA Tour wants their TV show to be entertaining. However, I won't argue with your thoughts on the USGA. 😉

The PGA Tour is a US based tour.  Americans culturally have a great desire for fairness in their competitions.  If it is perceived that an organization isn't taking significant measures to achieve a reasonably fair condition where luck is minimized and skill heavily rewarded then the organization loses credibility.

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11 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The PGA Tour is a US based tour.  Americans culturally have a great desire for fairness in their competitions.  If it is perceived that an organization isn't taking significant measures to achieve a reasonably fair condition where luck is minimized and skill heavily rewarded then the organization loses credibility.


I appreciate your lofty opinion of the PGA Tour. My more cynical view is that it's a commercial enterprise, just a TV show, who's purpose is to let old white men know which brand of automobile to buy and to remind them that Viagra is their friend. Fair is never a part of their equation; entertainment rules. I'm not here to defend the USGA, though I do think they do a fine job in general.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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2 minutes ago, sui generis said:


I appreciate your lofty opinion of the PGA Tour. My more cynical view is that it's a commercial enterprise, just a TV show, who's purpose is to let old white men know which brand of automobile to buy and to remind them that Viagra is their friend. Fair is never a part of their equation; entertainment rules. I'm not here to defend the USGA, though I do think they do a fine job in general.

Oh, I don't think they necessarily try to make things fair out of altruism.  They do it because it is in their best interests.

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14 hours ago, dcm325 said:


Agreed, but I think USGA committees should lax a little on the “bravado” they show when it comes to the this. Last year, Mid-Am qualifier.. literally every ball plugged in the fairway. Free relief taken, approach shot lands in the fringe, same cut as the fairway, 1” of mud on the side. Get bent nerd! 

Honestly, when you expect it and know it's gonna happen, it's not bad. Maybe it's part of the allure of the USGA but their competitions are always the hardest, truest tests of golf. And for them, that means playing the ball as it lies. 

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14 hours ago, dcm325 said:


Oddly, the PGA tour will play lift/clean/place ... but a USGA amateur event won’t? I don’t understand it. 

 

The PGA Tour is an organization owned by the Tour's players, the majority of whom favor lift-clean-place.

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16 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems to me that you share the narrow mind of another poster...

 

For once I was trying to take the perspective of a player of another skill level than mine but neither you nor Sawgrass could comprehend it. Sawgrass simply leans on a text written without thinking about it further and you Hawkie follow...

 

As I tried to explain before, high handicap female players have completely different problems in trying to make their best score than us men, especially us on the low end of handicap. Unfortunately you guys cannot handle such thinking. Too bad, narrow attitude is not a benefit, not even here.

 

Merry Christmas.

So my suggestion it was just Beaner being Beaner also turned out to be prescient.  😉

 

In such an uncertain year, the comfort of some certainties is always welcome!

 

You have a Merry Christmas as well!

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11 hours ago, sui generis said:


I appreciate your lofty opinion of the PGA Tour. My more cynical view is that it's a commercial enterprise, just a TV show, who's purpose is to let old white men know which brand of automobile to buy and to remind them that Viagra is their friend. Fair is never a part of their equation; entertainment rules. I'm not here to defend the USGA, though I do think they do a fine job in general.

Ouch with the borderline political commentary (but may be an accurate demographic) ---- PGA Tour doesn't really give a rip what you brand of vehicle you buy or what pill you ingest, it cares (within some limits) that someone wants to pay for ads - if Ford ever paid them enough they'd even let them advertise. 😉

 

You want to feel targeted for ads in an embarrassing way watch either of the Hallmark Channels during the daytime and wait for the realization you are in their demographic to hit you -- sobering, until you reach for an old single malt.

Edited by Hawkeye77
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I think I remember the 2nd or third round of the US men’s Open at Beth page using LCP due to the inordinate muddy conditions, but that is just my memory and this noggin is not as reliable as it once was.

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On 12/21/2020 at 12:08 AM, rogolf said:

And would likely improve their score!  Going for the shot with the highest probability of success is trying to make the best score for the hole.  Trying that 220 yard shot over the water to a short-sided flag, just because you made it once in 200 tries, is foolish and is not trying for the best score on the hole.

Not necessarily true.  That is only one position of other possibilities.  If I am in a match, and I know I need a birdie to extend the match, yet I choose to lay up to make a par, then no, I did not "try to make the best score for the hole".  Conversely, if I attempt the "low probability" shot in an effort to win the hole, than it would follow that I tried "to make the best score for the hole".  The subsequent execution of the shot and resultant score would be irrelevant to my intention.

 

Such a parameter, "try to make the best score for the hole", is completely subjective and relative to the particular shot at hand.  As such, only one person really knows if they are trying to make the best score for the hole.

 

However, I do agree that many golfers on any given day would do well to play "the percentage" shot over the "hero shot".

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Which shot is most likely to result in the best score for the hole?

As to match play, I have my own philosophy - never play a shot that will lose a hole, make my opponent play shots, he or she makes mistakes also.  Example - my tee shot is in some trees, opponent's is on the fairway.  If I don't have have a very high percentage shot available, I will chip out just past his ball, so that he has to play the next stroke.

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22 hours ago, rogolf said:

Which shot is most likely to result in the best score for the hole?

As to match play, I have my own philosophy - never play a shot that will lose a hole, make my opponent play shots, he or she makes mistakes also.  Example - my tee shot is in some trees, opponent's is on the fairway.  If I don't have have a very high percentage shot available, I will chip out just past his ball, so that he has to play the next stroke.

 

There is quite a difference between "most likely to result in the best score for the hole " and "attempt to make the best score possible at each hole".

 

I would hope you don't expect every golfer to play "the safe shot" 100% of the time. 

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21 minutes ago, Deceptively Short said:

Surely the aim in matchplay is to make a better score than your opponent on each hole not to make the best (possible) score.

Yep, let my opponent take on making the "best score possible on every hole" - I just want to beat him by one stroke!  I don't care about my score for handicap purposes.

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