What is the best iron sole design for steep or shallow swing? Steep = wider and shallow = thinner?

[easyyy]

I was listening to one of our podcasts with TXG and they were discussing how Johnny was having a difficult time hitting a long iron that had a wider sole. Some tour reps said that different types of swings were better fitted for a specific sole size and shape. Shallow swings were better off with thinner soles and a steeper attack angle can game a wider sole if they would like to. The discussion is at the 30 minute mark.

 

Got me scratching my head. I am more steep so I can get away with playing something wider but I admit it has not been a slam dunk. Hard to find a thinner sole 3 and 4 iron that has significant speed off the face. Your thoughts?

 

 

[cardoustie]

I take big divots and do better with thinner soles ... 40 years experience and a lot of iron sets

 

wide irons are atrocious for me in firm conditions fwiw 

 

 

[2Down]

back in the day most irons were thin sole with the long irons having a dig or negative bounce.  You had to get clean contact or you were screwed.  Modern irons have bounce in everything to try prevent a dig or fat shot.  It’s called bounce for a reason and modern clubs have more.   

[Mitchell]

Taller player, 6’5”, with an upright swing, tend to have best results with narrower soles with a bit of bounce and leading edge relief. Played 962b irons for quite a few years- like an iron that is “fast” both in and out of the turf, for me- wider soles are no good. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Mitchell

[bladehunter]

I take long very shallow divots. Like dollar bill long .  And I absolutely require a thinner sole.  I’ve tried my best to use something “ forgiving “.  And can’t.   I’ll like the short irons and hate the long irons, to the point of not being able to play them.    This is exactly the opposite of how a forgiving iron is supposed to work. The long irons should be easiest and the short irons simply a concession that works.  
 

let me tell you what the best of all words is with this.  The t100 from titleist.   Holy crow ! They fixed the ap2 bounce issue.   These puppies cut , and yet aren’t at all hard to hit.  
 

I do find it hilarious that I’ve yelled this for a while , and been called all sorts of things for doing it.  Now the  scientists have figured it out too.
 

 @easyyy   For curiosity sake , have you hit the t100 3-4-5 irons ?  Not spring faced , but thin , launch high , no real offset and they don’t bounce off the hard turf.  To me they check off all the boxes.  I’m mad I waited until last week to hit them.  

[easyyy]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I take long very shallow divots. Like dollar bill long .  And I absolutely require a thinner sole.  I’ve tried my best to use something “ forgiving “.  And can’t.   I’ll like the short irons and hate the long irons, to the point of not being able to play them.    This is exactly the opposite of how a forgiving iron is supposed to work. The long irons should be easiest and the short irons simply a concession that works.  
 

let me tell you what the best of all words is with this.  The t100 from titleist.   Holy crow ! They fixed the ap2 bounce issue.   These puppies cut , and yet aren’t at all hard to hit.  
 

I do find it hilarious that I’ve yelled this for a while , and been called all sorts of things for doing it.  Now the  scientists have figured it out too.
 

 @easyyy   For curiosity sake , have you hit the t100 3-4-5 irons ?  Not spring faced , but thin , launch high , no real offset and they don’t bounce off the hard turf.  To me they check off all the boxes.  I’m mad I waited until last week to hit them.  

 

I haven't had any experience with them. P770's and Callaway Apex Pro Forged from last year.

 

When I struggle I tend to replace the 3 and 4 iron with a wider driving iron (UT or UDI) type head for height and distance. But eventually I realize they arnt working as well as the original set.

 

My best scoring has always been player cb sets. AP2, TM mc, Apex pro etc. And I am down 3-5 degrees on mid irons. I think tour average is near 2*.

[MPAndreassi]

27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I take long very shallow divots. Like dollar bill long .  And I absolutely require a thinner sole.  I’ve tried my best to use something “ forgiving “.  And can’t.   I’ll like the short irons and hate the long irons, to the point of not being able to play them.    This is exactly the opposite of how a forgiving iron is supposed to work. The long irons should be easiest and the short irons simply a concession that works.  
 

let me tell you what the best of all words is with this.  The t100 from titleist.   Holy crow ! They fixed the ap2 bounce issue.   These puppies cut , and yet aren’t at all hard to hit.  
 

I do find it hilarious that I’ve yelled this for a while , and been called all sorts of things for doing it.  Now the  scientists have figured it out too.
 

 @easyyy   For curiosity sake , have you hit the t100 3-4-5 irons ?  Not spring faced , but thin , launch high , no real offset and they don’t bounce off the hard turf.  To me they check off all the boxes.  I’m mad I waited until last week to hit them.  

I’m going to second the T100/T100S for someone who takes a good size divot and plays better with a thinner sole. I’m playing T100S at 2* weak, less offset and more bounce, and they’ve been great for me. Plenty of distance, hitting them the same as the CF16 Apex I had before, much better looking and feeling. 

[Biebs333]

46 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I take long very shallow divots. Like dollar bill long .  And I absolutely require a thinner sole.  I’ve tried my best to use something “ forgiving “.  And can’t.   I’ll like the short irons and hate the long irons, to the point of not being able to play them.    This is exactly the opposite of how a forgiving iron is supposed to work. The long irons should be easiest and the short irons simply a concession that works.  
 

let me tell you what the best of all words is with this.  The t100 from titleist.   Holy crow ! They fixed the ap2 bounce issue.   These puppies cut , and yet aren’t at all hard to hit.  
 

I do find it hilarious that I’ve yelled this for a while , and been called all sorts of things for doing it.  Now the  scientists have figured it out too.
 

 @easyyy   For curiosity sake , have you hit the t100 3-4-5 irons ?  Not spring faced , but thin , launch high , no real offset and they don’t bounce off the hard turf.  To me they check off all the boxes.  I’m mad I waited until last week to hit them.  

 I agree, T100 are fantastic, amazing forgiveness for a club that size.  And go through the turf like no one's business, a fantastic design. Thanks, Spieth.

[Scottbox]

I’m a shallow swinger and I use 921 SELs. I changed from G410s, which I did not like because I always felt like I was hitting them fat. The 921s are def better for me.

[dmeeksDC]

Agree the T100 is very nice, but I think the T200 sole is also nice, really on the thin side for a player’s distance iron. My favorite aspect of the new Titleist lineup is how much they refined the sole designs. Never was an AP2 fan but this current lineup is super. 

[Feelingofgreatness]

I'm a shallow swinger (very little divot) and I prefer wider soles. I find my miss is a thin strike, bottom groove, and the mass at the bottom helps out immensely on thin strikes. Anytime I'm tried to use a think sole iron it hasn't gone well.

[Golfrnut]

I think there is a lot more to take into account.  Difference of 'by design' and what works.  Camber and relief play into it just as much if not more than the sole width IMO.  I typically play better with a thinner sole, however, one of the best sets of irons I ever had sole wise were the J40 CBs.  A 'wider' sole by definition, but had leading edge and heel relief which gave it more camber overall.  Lots of people loved the Srixon 'V-sole' for the same kind of reasons. It is very true that many of the 'hot' long irons choose a wide sole with little/no relief...and I feel the same way as a lot of people do in that they are hard to work into the turf with.  Until we get some dedicated 'players irons' with the hot faces, it's probably not gonna change either unfortunately.  Perhaps we all band to together and ask Tiger to ask TM to build him some 'special' long irons...and then convince TM to bring them to market.

 

 Wide v. narrow leaves way too much unspoken about IMO.

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, easyyy said:

 

I haven't had any experience with them. P770's and Callaway Apex Pro Forged from last year.

 

When I struggle I tend to replace the 3 and 4 iron with a wider driving iron (UT or UDI) type head for height and distance. But eventually I realize they arnt working as well as the original set.

 

My best scoring has always been player cb sets. AP2, TM mc, Apex pro etc. And I am down 3-5 degrees on mid irons. I think tour average is near 2*.

Well my friend , id get ahold of a set ASAP if you can to test.  
 

ive owned 716 and 714 ap2 sets , and disliked the long irons . These are a totally different animal.  Not even cousins in my opinion.  
 

I also played the i500 for 8 months , and to me the t100 is everything  they aren’t in the long irons.  High trajectory and perfect gapping time after time.  The wider soled irons don’t allow for a proper strike unless it’s really steep . The reason for this is that most of the wider soled irons have a vertical center of gravity that’s actually higher on the face than most irons.  The reason for this is they are designed for fat strikes.  Which puts the ball up on the face , where they’ve moved the sweet spot to.  So a guy who comes in shallow has no shot at getting the Vcog to the equator of the ball.  Checkout for instance how high it is listed on Maltbys site for the i500.  It’s comical.  
 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by bladehunter

[Ephemerlol]

I have a fairly shallow swing that takes a short, shallow divot.  My miss however has been heavy, hitting the ground up to 2 or 3 inches behind the ball.  I have found thin soles are substantially more playable for me,  they cut through and do a better job maintaining clubhead speed and face angle.

[gators78]

I agree to the statement that certain swings are better suited for certain sole designs, that for sure is true. The more I mess around with clubs on a monitor though, the less I'm convinced it is as simple as the steep players need wide soles and shallow need thin. You're really talking about 1) distance leading edge is from the ground 2) sole width and 3) bounce across the entire sole. 

 

I'm in the average trending steeper AoA camp, and I would take some serious divots with my i210s, but I was then fit into the MP20s and my divots are noticeably smaller. I would've bet money I needed the opposite of Mizuno. 

 

Gary Woodland went with Wilson because of the turf interaction on the blades, Dufner is noted for his hyper specific details on the grinds going from the old AP2s to NCW to Cobra sets. It's definitely important, but not a lot of info and really requires testing, off grass, with someone that understands club design. 

[BirdieBob]

It really depends upon the turf conditions.

 

For soft turf and short irons playing the ball back with a steeper swing angle, I want a wider sole...more bounce is better.

As I move to the mid/long irons then with the soft turf I move the ball more forward and pick the ball.  So, sole really does not matter as much due to picking it off the soft turf, but wider is a bit better.

 

For firm turf conditions in the short end I want a narrow sole like an MB iron.  But as I move the ball more forward in the stance with the mid/long irons and firm sole I usually go with narrow, but can use the wider sole irons as well as I tend to pick more often.

 

Bottom line...use the tools that match the turf conditions.

[ChipNRun]

11 hours ago, Golfrnut said:

I think there is a lot more to take into account.  Difference of 'by design' and what works.  Camber and relief play into it just as much if not more than the sole width IMO. 

 

One thing modern irons tend to have is a beveled leading edge, rounded just a bit. This cuts down on the turf grab if you come in a bit heavy.

 

Also, my current CB Pro Tungsten irons have heavy tungsten sole weighting, which allows for low center of gravity without an overly wide sole. Excellent feel and action through turf for a medium-descent swinger.

[Golfrnut]

49 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

 

One thing modern irons tend to have is a beveled leading edge, rounded just a bit. This cuts down on the turf grab if you come in a bit heavy.

 

Also, my current CB Pro Tungsten irons have heavy tungsten sole weighting, which allows for low center of gravity without an overly wide sole. Excellent feel and action through turf for a medium-descent swinger.

looking at the 3 iron P790 I have, the bounce is also rolled way forward towards the leading edge, which also creates more effective bounce.  Not a personal preference of my own by any means. 

[MtlJeff]

I take essentially no divot. In fact when i was at Callaway for the WRX trip i hit balls on their range for about an hour and they joked that i was taking great care of their lawn LOL

 

For some reason i can use almost any type of sole without real issue. In theory my G410s shouldn't work for me, they are a massive sole with a lot of bounce. But for whatever reason it works. Though my divot has progressed from nothing to i-actually-have-to-replace-it-sometimes

 

This frustrates me because i am lazy and don't want to replace divots

[ChipNRun]

Steep vs. shallow? You can get fooled a bit depending on what type of turf you play off of.

 

My home course has zoysia fairway turf and tees, and for a long time I thought I was fairly shallow on my downswing. I mentioned this to a Callaway rep as I was testing wedges, and he said I had a more medium downswing.

 

The reality: our zoysia provides a bit of cushion for shots from the fairway, and has fairly sturdy root system. For iron shots off zoysia, I cut the turf down to the dirt; the bare spot is about the size of a half-dollar coin, with no divot to replace.

 

In a trip to Myrtle Beach, I got to play off of bermuda, and my iron shots cut out a divot a few inches long that could be replaced. Same swing, just different turf interaction.

 

So, you might get a fitting to tell how steep you really are, before  you buy new irons and wedges. (I don't mean to insult anyone😔, because I know WRXers never buy clubs without getting a fitting!) 

[Sparty4202]

I’m a sweeper and I find that a medium to thin sole is the best for me. I tried a set of Ping G30 irons a few years ago and it was a disaster. I also seem to prefer minimal offset in an iron.

[llewol007]

I tend to come in steep with my irons and you need some resemblance of bounce regardless if thin or thicker soled. You just need some forgiveness on the bottom front edge. I remember playing with an older set of Hogans and for the life of me, I felt like I was playing with a shovel that would just stick into the ground. Sweepers just need a lot more bottom to keep the head movement at a minimum. Thats why woods would work for a sweeper all the way up the bag from driver down to a 11 wood if you can. Hybrids can help but they still need to be hit like an iron so will be somewhat challenging. 

[Nick_E]

Help me understand why it matters if you're striking your irons properly?  Shouldn't need bounce on full iron shot.  Ball first then Turf.  After that the Turf can do whatever.  

 

Turf interaction??  Walk me thru how that applies to a full iron shot. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Nick_E

[doctorbloor]

21 minutes ago, Nick_E said:

Help me understand why it matters if you're striking your irons properly?  Shouldn't need bounce on full iron shot.  Ball first then Turf.  After that the Turf can do whatever.  

 

Turf interaction??  Walk me thru how that applies to a full iron shot. 

 

As it happens, not all of us play to a 1.8.

 

3 hours ago, tbccgolfer said:

I’m a sweeper and I find that a medium to thin sole is the best for me. I tried a set of Ping G30 irons a few years ago and it was a disaster. I also seem to prefer minimal offset in an iron.

Hah.  Got talked into G15s rather than i15s years ago by a fitter who kept pitching "forgiveness" and "distance gains."  Hated them.

[jkilla6152]

I take big divots and really prefer the turf interaction from thinner soles. I played the P790s for 1.5 years and never liked the turf interaction. Switched to the Srixon 785s and they felt good through the turf and then the Adams MB2s and love those through the turf. Would echo the sentiment that in firm conditions wide soled irons really sucked for me. I love the least amount of bounce I can get for the most part. Also got some vokeys with 12 and 14* of bounce this year just to see how it worked and I hated them. Switched out after a few rounds to 8* and the 4* L grind on the 60 and loved them. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Nick_E said:

Help me understand why it matters if you're striking your irons properly?  Shouldn't need bounce on full iron shot.  Ball first then Turf.  After that the Turf can do whatever.  

 

Turf interaction??  Walk me thru how that applies to a full iron shot. 

If it didn’t matter wide soles wouldn’t have been invented. 
 

but seriously-  it matters because a players reaction to the turf interaction after the ball can or will cause him or her to deliver the club differently, if that interaction isn’t a pleasant one.  Surely you’ve hit An iron that didn’t care for , right ?  Did you keep it citing “ doesn’t mattter “ or did you find one that suited how you expected it to feel. ? 

[Sparty4202]

1 hour ago, doctorbloor said:

 

As it happens, not all of us play to a 1.8.

 

Hah.  Got talked into G15s rather than i15s years ago by a fitter who kept pitching "forgiveness" and "distance gains."  Hated them.

Hah..Had i15s and loved them and a fitter talked me into the G30 and I hated them! 🤦‍♂️

[GBBM]

I am a steep upright swinger. I have had much better success with irons with leading edge relief regardless of overall sole width particularly from 7i-down to wedges. In my full swing wedge slots I play either the Miura High Bounce wedges or JDM Vokey Forged which have aggressive leading edge relief.
 

Being steep I can struggle with the low point of my swing and in my experience the added bounce provides a substantial improvement on shots hit a bit fat without any penalty for shots hit a bit thin. This effectively widens the bottom point of my swing slightly and also gives me the confidence to really go down and get it. 
 

When it comes to my “touch” wedge I use the OG PM Grind which has substantial measurable bounce yet because of the sole grind the leading edge sits very close to the ground. This always a lot of versatility for me, more so than any other “around the greens” wedge I’ve ever been able to lay my hands on and I’ve been through piles of lob wedges. 
 

So in conclusion for around the green wedges there is going to be a ton of personal preference to suit certain techniques. But I’d say for most recreational golfers, I don’t think there’s much of a trade off in opting for the occasional benefits of higher bounce irons because I don’t think the leading edge even comes into play for sweepers.
 

If the sole isn’t even interacting with the soil, the sole design is kind of a moot point. The difference in performance for sweepers is going to more influenced by lower VCOG since their strikes will likely tend to be lower on the face than someone who is steep and takes a ball-first divot. If you ever hit it fat get some bounce. If you don’t, it probably doesn’t matter. 

[forrester_fire]

15 hours ago, Nick_E said:

Help me understand why it matters if you're striking your irons properly?  Shouldn't need bounce on full iron shot.  Ball first then Turf.  After that the Turf can do whatever.  

 

Turf interaction??  Walk me thru how that applies to a full iron shot. 

 

Many of us don't strike our irons properly every, or even some, of the time.

Edited December 19, 2020 by forrester_fire

[Nick_E]

10 minutes ago, forrester_fire said:

 

Many of us don't strike our irons properly every, or even some, of the time.

Fair point, I wasn't considering the entire golf population.  Appreciate bounce and leading edge would be important for most golfers.  

 

I'll admit when I'm wrong👍