Your latest efforts to get the shaft more shallow will just make you hook the ball more.

[ALIF]

14 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s the point....if you’re doing it correctly, you really can’t, because your body will react and prevent it.

 

Shallow early, steepen late.

 

 

Sorry, my question was about as clear as mud. What I meant was what feels would you tell us to have to get the club properly showered? Zipper away, right elbow towards belly button, etc.? Maybe some other ones that I haven’t mentioned that might be helpful for an obtuse individual such as myself who needs to try 20 different feels to finally get the right one to help me do the right thing.

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, ALIF said:

Sorry, my question was about as clear as mud. What I meant was what feels would you tell us to have to get the club properly showered? Zipper away, right elbow towards belly button, etc.? Maybe some other ones that I haven’t mentioned that might be helpful for an obtuse individual such as myself who needs to try 20 different feels to finally get the right one to help me do the right thing.

That’s going to be very individual.  Right now, “Cast to 8 o’clock,” is the soup do jour.

[ALIF]

23 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s going to be very individual.  Right now, “Cast to 8 o’clock,” is the soup do jour.

That’s a great feel. I saw that on your latest video series. This is a great topic! Thanks for all your insight Monte!

[Nard_S]

9 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

Hahaha. OK it happened to me and I need to urgently see an instructor to fix me. I was just wondering whether more people had this issue.

The misperception that I'm supposed to throw my hands "on plane" or my faulty definition of what D-plane is has kept me in the penalty box of losing it left. Once I understood that hands thrown higher will actually flatten the shaft, then things opened up for progress. "Out is down" moved the ball on all of this for me.

[cardoustie]

My remedies were Monte’s early release from the top, staying tall and also mixed in with the Malaska club tipped more vertical 

 

now I am either 2 in or 2 out depending on the shot

[b.mattay]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I love hearing this bmat 

Thanks! Your NTC vid is gold. It’s reduced right-to-left curvature for me big time! My miss went from being a hook throughout the bag to a soft little push with the irons and a teeny fade with driver, which is awesome! 

[CasualLie]

Seems like a timely topic to throw my 3 cents in.   Haven't practiced much this week so yesterday go to the range and just hit it like garbage, way too steep.  So I go to NTC and ballflight gets much better.  I leave the range with the plan of playing my round today just trying to get to 8:00 and think of nothing else.  

 

First 6 holes today notice I have a 20 yard pull working.  Great for distance off the tee, terrible for hitting greens.  Short game and putting keeps me at 1 over.  Next 6 holes the lefts get worse.  I try not to do much middle of the round correction but it's getting ugly. 5 over.

 

After 12, have some time to think this through.  I do the Nick Price drill to check my takeaway and realize I'm getting way inside on my takeaway.  My feel to get to 8:00 was all hands and literally doing the NT of NTC... Way overdoing it.  

 

For the last 6 holes I finished the round with the feel of getting a little less inside and using a little more turn to get to 8:00.  Everything else the same, just change the intent, get to 8:00 and throw.  Bingo!  Fixed.  Hello baby fades and salvaged the round to finish 5 over.

 

Point being... How you get to 8:00 is very important.  If you feel you are coming in too much from inside and sending the ball way left, you may be way too much hands oriented and like Monte says, the right tilt kills you, or the dreaded stall.

[coops]

13 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

People doing this on their own run a great risk of coming into the ball too shallow and too much from the inside with a pivot that isn't correcting the path.  Result: massive over draws and huge blocks. Discuss.

 

Possibly true... because they're doing it (shaft shallowing) wrong.

 

On the other hand... if the people doing this (shallowing the shaft) are doing Monte's latest No Turn Cast video on their own, then the result is wonderful.

 

Essentially, it's a wrist movement not a right shoulder drop to shallow the shaft... but get the video. There's other areas covered in it just as important as the Cast A move - for me i'd tend to not 'bump' left before uncoiling and used to get horrendous pull hook or duck hook drives - the NTC video has not only improved my iron play, but it finally got the transition to click in my mind properly, and have been hitting far, far , far better (i.e. straighter) drives (and yes, also better distance) - I even stepped up to try to hit a fade on one tee... and did it. As a long term hooker, this was pretty astonishing to me.

[Krt22]

The draw is a flaw!

[MonteScheinblum]

53 minutes ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

 

By “cast” do you mean lose right wrist (hyper)extension (which is what casting was when I learned about it)?  Or do you mean early hand speed, which is not casting at all, as I understand the word.

Casting is ulnar deviation....and when done correctly with early hand speed, isn’t casting at all.

[GolfTurkey]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:38 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s going to be very individual.  Right now, “Cast to 8 o’clock,” is the soup do jour.

 

If you're one of those unmentionables that pitches up on your lesson tee that has to feel like they're swinging OTT and casting, is feeling like you're casting to 5 o'clock (or even 4 o'clock) ok to learn the "ott"?

Edited December 22, 2020 by GolfTurkey

[TheDeanAbides]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:00 AM, CasualLie said:

Seems like a timely topic to throw my 3 cents in.   Haven't practiced much this week so yesterday go to the range and just hit it like garbage, way too steep.  So I go to NTC and ballflight gets much better.  I leave the range with the plan of playing my round today just trying to get to 8:00 and think of nothing else.  

 

First 6 holes today notice I have a 20 yard pull working.  Great for distance off the tee, terrible for hitting greens.  Short game and putting keeps me at 1 over.  Next 6 holes the lefts get worse.  I try not to do much middle of the round correction but it's getting ugly. 5 over.

 

After 12, have some time to think this through.  I do the Nick Price drill to check my takeaway and realize I'm getting way inside on my takeaway.  My feel to get to 8:00 was all hands and literally doing the NT of NTC... Way overdoing it.  

 

For the last 6 holes I finished the round with the feel of getting a little less inside and using a little more turn to get to 8:00.  Everything else the same, just change the intent, get to 8:00 and throw.  Bingo!  Fixed.  Hello baby fades and salvaged the round to finish 5 over.

 

Point being... How you get to 8:00 is very important.  If you feel you are coming in too much from inside and sending the ball way left, you may be way too much hands oriented and like Monte says, the right tilt kills you, or the dreaded stall.

I'm confused by this. How did you end up way inside by doing the NT part of the drill? That seems impossible to me? Equally, how did you fix it by adding more rotation? That also seems like the wrong way around. Just trying to understand..

[CasualLie]

36 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm confused by this. How did you end up way inside by doing the NT part of the drill? That seems impossible to me? Equally, how did you fix it by adding more rotation? That also seems like the wrong way around. Just trying to understand..

Just going by how it felt given I'm on the course, no video.

 

I think it's quite possible to overdo the left arm back while staying too static in lower body so when your hands are at 8:00, they got there with the left arm pinned across the chest and right hip moved a smidge.  Basically, with all my thought on hands, I'm steering them to 8 and getting my arms stuck inside.  Again, how it felt.

 

What led me to thinking that's what I was doing was doing the drill where you setup, then take right hand off the club, but keeping it at the same address position.  With left hand only swing club back to shaft parallel by going under the right hand, freezing, then put right hand back on club, then go to the top.  Doing this drill showed me I needed to have the club more in front of me.  Another way to think of this is not let the left forearm close the angle to the chest too much going back.

 

Still, I needed to get the club to 8:00, so that's when I got the focus away from the hands and more on allowing the rotation to get the club where it needs to be.

 

This is a lot of explanation for something that was not as complicated as it sounds.

 

I get it, in Monte's video, especially what's shown in backswing B, the whole idea of NTC is to get the wrists set correctly, get to 8:00 and let the necessary turn happen "naturally".  The NTC being for those that overturn.  But I may have taken it too far and was restricting hip turn, getting hands to 8, but getting stuck inside and adding a flip to generate speed resulting in 30 yard pull.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

40 minutes ago, CasualLie said:

Just going by how it felt given I'm on the course, no video.

 

I think it's quite possible to overdo the left arm back while staying too static in lower body so when your hands are at 8:00, they got there with the left arm pinned across the chest and right hip moved a smidge.  Basically, with all my thought on hands, I'm steering them to 8 and getting my arms stuck inside.  Again, how it felt.

 

What led me to thinking that's what I was doing was doing the drill where you setup, then take right hand off the club, but keeping it at the same address position.  With left hand only swing club back to shaft parallel by going under the right hand, freezing, then put right hand back on club, then go to the top.  Doing this drill showed me I needed to have the club more in front of me.  Another way to think of this is not let the left forearm close the angle to the chest too much going back.

 

Still, I needed to get the club to 8:00, so that's when I got the focus away from the hands and more on allowing the rotation to get the club where it needs to be.

 

This is a lot of explanation for something that was not as complicated as it sounds.

 

I get it, in Monte's video, especially what's shown in backswing B, the whole idea of NTC is to get the wrists set correctly, get to 8:00 and let the necessary turn happen "naturally".  The NTC being for those that overturn.  But I may have taken it too far and was restricting hip turn, getting hands to 8, but getting stuck inside and adding a flip to generate speed resulting in 30 yard pull.

 

 

Yes, is easy to think that the no turn part means that you restrict the hip turn, but Monte talks about the importance of hip turn all the time. 

 

For me the NT part just means that I'm allowing my body to react exactly how it wants to in response to the wrist set. No restriction and no conscious body movement - I think that's the key. 

[gators78]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:48 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

And @ryan84

 

Staying in left tilt (Aka back to target/stay closed that Nicklaus and Rose talk about) feels over the top to most people.  Everyone who was taught to drop it in the slot and swing to right field, dropped the rear shoulder.  Coming from the inside is a wrist and arm movement that is made easier by shifting earlier versus diving the knees and pelvis from the top, which pulls you out of left tilt early.  See the Alex Noren drill.  

 

 

Coming from someone that is right side tilting too much, how do you override the brain thinking that I'm going to slam the club 3 feet into the ground staying in left tilt?

[MonteScheinblum]

8 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

If you're one of those unmentionables that pitches up on your lesson tee that has to feel like they're swinging OTT and casting, is feeling like you're casting to 5 o'clock (or even 4 o'clock) ok to learn the "ott"?

That’s counter productive, IMO.  The club still has to work behind you while the shoulders “feel” like they tilt OTT.  

[J13]

6 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s counter productive, IMO.  The club still has to work behind you while the shoulders “feel” like they tilt OTT.  

 

 

All i know is the online lesson i got from you has me hitting 25% more fairways off the tee after 3 weeks of practicing it and almost 0 blocks.  Your drill alongside the Rose drill are game changers.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, gators78 said:

 

 

Coming from someone that is right side tilting too much, how do you override the brain thinking that I'm going to slam the club 3 feet into the ground staying in left tilt?

Same as quitting smoking.  Painful effort.

[scooterhd2]

2 hours ago, gators78 said:

 

 

Coming from someone that is right side tilting too much, how do you override the brain thinking that I'm going to slam the club 3 feet into the ground staying in left tilt?

 

stop avoiding downhill lies on the practice chipping green. and find a place to practice some 8 irons off a downhill lie. when the right tilt clearly hurts you, you'll groove it faster, 

[ferrispgm]

For those having a hard time isolating the wrist movement...the pause at the top...move the wrists in position...and then swing drill helps a lot.  Also, I have found that the 8 o'clock cast feels very much behind you and even more so when you try doing it in a normal swing. However, casting properly makes it easier to stay in left tilt a touch longer as there really isn't another way to make good contact.  If you are right tilting early, make sure you aren't casting more towards 6 instead of 8.  I said this on the other topic but I like placing an alignment stick behind my trail foot and angled at 8 o'clock to use as a reference point and try to match that using my wrists for the first move in transition.

[tgoodspe1991]

On 12/20/2020 at 12:48 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

And @ryan84

 

Staying in left tilt (Aka back to target/stay closed that Nicklaus and Rose talk about) feels over the top to most people.  Everyone who was taught to drop it in the slot and swing to right field, dropped the rear shoulder.  Coming from the inside is a wrist and arm movement that is made easier by shifting earlier versus diving the knees and pelvis from the top, which pulls you out of left tilt early.  See the Alex Noren drill.  

All I know is that (for me) the more I feel like I stay closed in my downswing (i.e. “keep” my back to the target/don’t actively open the shoulders or hips) the more I actually end up in an impact position where my shoulders are square to slightly open, and my hips are open maybe 30-40* at impact, no early extension whatsoever, angles retained, etc. 

 

When I actively try to open up in the downswing, the exact opposite ends up happening. 

[Golfbeat]

Had my best ball striking today. Did everything what Monte prescribed in NTC but in addition to keeping my shoulders closed I felt as if I was leaning my upper body to the target before I started the down swing (the centered down fall?).  I basically almost felt as if I made the dreaded reverse pivot or a stack and tilt move. Difference being that I really went into the right leg during the take away and started the down fall before the back swing had ended.  I think that re-centering is a crucial move.

[CasualLie]

16 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Yes, is easy to think that the no turn part means that you restrict the hip turn, but Monte talks about the importance of hip turn all the time. 

 

For me the NT part just means that I'm allowing my body to react exactly how it wants to in response to the wrist set. No restriction and no conscious body movement - I think that's the key. 

 

Yes, I know this..."should know this", but it never fails, start working on something else and then forget the fundamentals of NTC.  

 

I am trying to get this re-centering correctly in sequence, the more I work on that, the worse my action gets on NTC.  Focus all on NTC, and without a pressure mat, I am not sure if I am leaving something on the table.  I guess I can just trust ballflight for that, or maybe not?

 

Watched the videos again today, went to the range making sure I have that slight shift to give me time to do the wrist stuff correctly, and feel like I am back on track.  Where I find that shift being really important to have time is for cast #2.  Not getting that in the mix early enough results in a push shot, playable, but certainly off target.

 

Still...I need to sync proper pressure shift better to maximize distance.  One thing I notice in comparing my swing to any pro / good instructor, they all get that left knee inward early in the backswing, and if I do not make an effort to do that, my left knee will not move inward at all.  I wonder, is that really a killer issue, or should I just forget it.  Because that's where my timing gets way off...when I focus on that little sway back.

 

[TheDeanAbides]

6 hours ago, CasualLie said:

 

Yes, I know this..."should know this", but it never fails, start working on something else and then forget the fundamentals of NTC.  

 

I am trying to get this re-centering correctly in sequence, the more I work on that, the worse my action gets on NTC.  Focus all on NTC, and without a pressure mat, I am not sure if I am leaving something on the table.  I guess I can just trust ballflight for that, or maybe not?

 

Watched the videos again today, went to the range making sure I have that slight shift to give me time to do the wrist stuff correctly, and feel like I am back on track.  Where I find that shift being really important to have time is for cast #2.  Not getting that in the mix early enough results in a push shot, playable, but certainly off target.

 

Still...I need to sync proper pressure shift better to maximize distance.  One thing I notice in comparing my swing to any pro / good instructor, they all get that left knee inward early in the backswing, and if I do not make an effort to do that, my left knee will not move inward at all.  I wonder, is that really a killer issue, or should I just forget it.  Because that's where my timing gets way off...when I focus on that little sway back.

 

The shift down into the left leg happens when the backswing hits the 7 o'clock position. There's a great AMG video on it that basically says the backswing is over by then, and after that the separation begins to happen.

I found that throwing a ball really helped me to feel the truth of that because it's a dynamic move that we all make naturally when we don't think of the swing as two events - a backswing and downswing. 

[Coy M]

Check this video out. I like this feeling/drill. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJEYHdkgkc3/ 

[gazgolf1]

Worked on left tilt at the range yesterday and while it felt like a big reverse pivot it looked correct in the mirror. Contact was good but everything was coming out low and I felt like I wasn't sure where to go from the top. Any tips to correct this?

[glk]

49 minutes ago, gazgolf1 said:

Worked on left tilt at the range yesterday and while it felt like a big reverse pivot it looked correct in the mirror. Contact was good but everything was coming out low and I felt like I wasn't sure where to go from the top. Any tips to correct this?

Do the drills - slowly.  Focus on motion not ball flight.  Mirror or video to make sure you are doing the motion well.    Takes time.    Take an online lesson with monte if you really want to speed it up - easy to think you are doing it correctly and expert eyes can insure you are.

Edited January 8, 2021 by glk

[Teekman]

For me personally, it’s a battle of “feeling under or over the plane.” Currently I’m trying to swing under the plane which in reality is on plane. Give it a few months or so and I’ll need to feel like I’m swinging over the plane. I think most golfers have a general sense of what a good swing is but the feel will vary overtime.

[tjcarsillo]

I think manually trying to shallow the club has more guys screwed up than anything. If your body moves correctly in sequence the shaft will lay down on its own. 

[FlopShotGang]

I have this issue and am still kinda fighting it. What I did and what I suggest you try doing is video taping yourself from the back and front. I realized through filming with my swing is that I didn’t really shallow the club per say but rather maintained a strong grip and over rotated in the hips + shoulders to quickly. So basically I wasn’t shallowing out at all and was just hooking the s*** out of my balls during round. So now I’m doing drills to shallow out the club while rotating slower and keeping a more neutral grip. 
 

I know I should but I don’t really want to see a coach because I like to try and figure things out on my own plus I hate talking to new people in person.