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Your latest efforts to get the shaft more shallow will just make you hook the ball more.


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I have this issue and am still kinda fighting it. What I did and what I suggest you try doing is video taping yourself from the back and front. I realized through filming with my swing is that I didn’t really shallow the club per say but rather maintained a strong grip and over rotated in the hips + shoulders to quickly. So basically I wasn’t shallowing out at all and was just hooking the s*** out of my balls during round. So now I’m doing drills to shallow out the club while rotating slower and keeping a more neutral grip. 
 

I know I should but I don’t really want to see a coach because I like to try and figure things out on my own plus I hate talking to new people in person.  

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People drop the rear shoulder to do and and that’s a 2 way miss.  It’s a wrist movement.   Yank the handle for lag, dump the right shoulder to shallow.  That’s almost every 4-10 handicap tha

I’m going to hate myself in the morning.    ‘I’ve been around Trevino a few times.  I did an outing with him, saw him at PGA West all the time and he actually used me to hustle a big donation t

No. You discuss it.

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5 hours ago, tjcarsillo said:

I think manually trying to shallow the club has more guys screwed up than anything. If your body moves correctly in sequence the shaft will lay down on its own. 

And yet Monte says the exact opposite. Get the club in the correct position and your body will react. That has been our experience with NTC.

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Many golfers attempt to become more shallow , but end  worse than before.First golfers need to answer some questions before trying to effectuate any changes

 

How do you define shallowing?

What benefits does shallowing have?

What effect does shallowing have on the club face?

At what part in the swing do you start shallowing ?

Can shallowing be counterproductive?

How are shallowing and torso rotation related?

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23 hours ago, tjcarsillo said:

I think manually trying to shallow the club has more guys screwed up than anything. If your body moves correctly in sequence the shaft will lay down on its own. 

 

It won’t, it may feel like it does to you but your hands are the only things in contact with the club. The only body part that would shallow the club without changing wrist angles is a dumping  of the right shoulder. And that isn’t moving the body correctly.

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45 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

It won’t, it may feel like it does to you but your hands are the only things in contact with the club. The only body part that would shallow the club without changing wrist angles is a dumping  of the right shoulder. And that isn’t moving the body correctly.

I disagree with you. If you leave your arms passive and up in transition, the shaft will lay down on its own without manipulation from the arms, hands, and wrists. Separate the lower body from the upper body.

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15 hours ago, tjcarsillo said:

I disagree with you. If you leave your arms passive and up in transition, the shaft will lay down on its own without manipulation from the arms, hands, and wrists. Separate the lower body from the upper body.

 

Doing what you're describing will almost certainly result in the club getting stuck behind your body, likely requiring you to stall and extend, and then ultimately flip/steepen the shaft into impact. Preparing to shallow in transition just really isn't a passive move that can be done without utilizing your wrists.

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3 minutes ago, Nosebuckle said:

 

Doing what you're describing will almost certainly result in the club getting stuck behind your body, likely requiring you to stall and extend, and then ultimately flip/steepen the shaft into impact. Preparing to shallow in transition just really isn't a passive move that can be done without utilizing your wrists.

Unless you use a swing like Wolff/Bruen. They found out that taking the club back without any wrist c0ck means that the momentum of its shift during transition lays it down pretty perfectly. I've tried it and it works. 

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On 12/22/2020 at 12:09 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Casting is ulnar deviation....and when done correctly with early hand speed, isn’t casting at all.

Been playing off and on for 30 years and got to a 5.  Just watched a video u posted 7 years ago and it looks just like my swing.  Inside, very high at the top.  Not gonna say you’re my savior but I just hit a few with the no turn feeling then drive with the right hand and in the back yard driving range it worked with a 7 iron.  Thanks for the video and tip regardless.  Love the game and if work takes me to SD this year, I would love a lesson.

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:04 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

People drop the rear shoulder to do and and that’s a 2 way miss.  It’s a wrist movement.

 

Yank the handle for lag, dump the right shoulder to shallow.  That’s almost every 4-10 handicap that shows up on my lesson tee.

When I tell them to cast and come over the top, they want to run, but when club head speed goes up and path neutralizes...they say hmmm?!

So, is it fair to say, the right shoulder lowering is not a “thing” to work on in and of itself, but a result of doing a bunch of other things properly and in the correct sequence?

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On 12/22/2020 at 11:52 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

Same as quitting smoking.  Painful effort.

Like Monte said, I found this to be incredibly difficult to learn, especially under pressure.  If you keep at it, you'll start to learn more awareness around the movement and slowly improve.

 

But it's tough sledding, and it takes time.  

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On 1/10/2021 at 1:34 PM, TheDeanAbides said:

Unless you use a swing like Wolff/Bruen. They found out that taking the club back without any wrist c0ck means that the momentum of its shift during transition lays it down pretty perfectly. I've tried it and it works. 

 

Sure you could swing like an outlier but I wouldn't recommend it for the vast majority of us. Even then Wolff still has to accommodate his backswing idiosyncrasy with a good amount of trail wrist extension & lead wrist flex going into transition.

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5 hours ago, Nosebuckle said:

 

Sure you could swing like an outlier but I wouldn't recommend it for the vast majority of us. Even then Wolff still has to accommodate his backswing idiosyncrasy with a good amount of trail wrist extension & lead wrist flex going into transition.

The transition is automatic with this move. The momentum of the club takes care of it. Genius is often seen as an outlier, but I've experimented with it and it's effective. Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube. There's an ex longdrive champion who's teaching it. 

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6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The transition is automatic with this move. The momentum of the club takes care of it. Genius is often seen as an outlier, but I've experimented with it and it's effective. Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube. There's an ex longdrive champion who's teaching it. 

There is nothing automatic about it, it is a trained movement, Gankas just doesn't use the same internal focuses as other coaches. 

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4 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Dude, you're not going to get a rise from me. I'm guessing you didn't even bother watching the video. 

I watched it, its nothing new. It works for you, but there are plenty of people that simply won't be able to play from those positions. For every person that can shallow without thinking about it, there are probably 10x (or more) that cannot. There are no truly universal automatic swings out there, if there was everyone would be swinging that way.

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11 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The transition is automatic with this move. The momentum of the club takes care of it. Genius is often seen as an outlier, but I've experimented with it and it's effective. Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube. There's an ex longdrive champion who's teaching it. 

 

Makes sense, looks like the shaft would flatten in transition easier especially if you get the club across the line at the top. 

 

images.jpg.c118c2beacb8637b3a1c5c2e1f3bafe7.jpg

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Makes sense, looks like the shaft would flatten in transition easier especially if you get the club across the line at the top. 

 

images.jpg.c118c2beacb8637b3a1c5c2e1f3bafe7.jpg

 

 

 

The natural reaction to doing that and rotating is for the club to be pretty damn steep, rotation alone will not shallow it.. Funny thing is watching the Juju video at the beginning with those half swings you can see as clear as anything he is manipulating his wrists. It’s not even subtle really. 

 

What these guys have is top class club head awareness, while they rotate they know where they want the clubhead to be.  

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5 hours ago, Krt22 said:

There is nothing automatic about it, it is a trained movement, Gankas just doesn't use the same internal focuses as other coaches. 

No he’s right...giving no manipulation, the club will shallow. Due to center of mass location at the top of the swing even if you pull straight down the shaft may be vertical but it’s technically shallower than across the line.  
 

Most people won’t be able to play very good golf using their wrists like the “ juju swing” because you are shallowing a long time. The club simply has too far to travel to get on the proper path for most golfers...too much time to keep things sequenced correctly. There a reason most pro golfers have much smaller plane shifts. 

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23 minutes ago, airjammer said:

No he’s right...giving no manipulation, the club will shallow. Due to center of mass location at the top of the swing even if you pull straight down the shaft may be vertical but it’s technically shallower than across the line.  
 

Most people won’t be able to play very good golf using their wrists like the “ juju swing” because you are shallowing a long time. The club simply has too far to travel to get on the proper path for most golfers...too much time to keep things sequenced correctly. There a reason most pro golfers have much smaller plane shifts. 

Semantics, "automatic" implies the you shallow correctly and end up with a good impact position. Who cares if you are "shallowing" if you transition from way across the line to a vertical shaft such that you are still steep by P5. That is the same flawed logic of those that chase the 1 plane swing, just because you bring it back on 1 plane, doesnt mean it's going to come down the same way. The steep to shallow dynamics are well understood, they can measure it directly now, but that doesn't mean they happen without user input. 

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On 12/20/2020 at 9:48 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

And @ryan84

 

Staying in left tilt (Aka back to target/stay closed that Nicklaus and Rose talk about) feels over the top to most people.  Everyone who was taught to drop it in the slot and swing to right field, dropped the rear shoulder.  Coming from the inside is a wrist and arm movement that is made easier by shifting earlier versus diving the knees and pelvis from the top, which pulls you out of left tilt early.  See the Alex Noren drill.  

 

This was a bit of an "aha" moment for me.  I bought your NTC vid - and it was great - but I couldn't quite get my speed up with the "cast to 8" thought - primarily with the driver.

 

After reading your "stay in left bend" and "don't dump the right shoulder" - the Alex Noren drill made a lot more sense.  Rightly or wrongly, the feel of getting the left shoulder down while shallowing with the hands helped take some of the hook out of my irons. 

 

I still need to take a look on video to make sure I'm not just dive bombing forward - but a few times when I really focused on getting that left shoulder down and left, I was even able to hit a nice, released fade with zero distance loss. 

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16 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Semantics, "automatic" implies the you shallow correctly and end up with a good impact position. Who cares if you are "shallowing" if you transition from way across the line to a vertical shaft such that you are still steep by P5. That is the same flawed logic of those that chase the 1 plane swing, just because you bring it back on 1 plane, doesnt mean it's going to come down the same way. The steep to shallow dynamics are well understood, they can measure it directly now, but that doesn't mean they happen without user input. 

 

I agree and also you have to consider hand path, AMG did a good video on it and it was why it didn’t work for me.  From across the line if you rotate the shaft will get in a vertical position which is obviously no good but if you manage to keep you hands high enough for longer with the rotation and it does shallow but your hand path will be too far out towards the target line. Matt wolf will be using his wrists and also sending his hand path via arms deep. 

 

In effect he is rotating while off setting with his arms and wrists, there is nothing automatic about it. 

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