Trying your best

[Deceptively Short]

We are having, even for this damp island, a very wet period, certainly here in the South 

West. Our Course, which usually drains well is extremely wet; we therefore have buggy/cart bans and unusually a trolley ban.

For qualifying competitions we normally do all that we can to allow trollies but at the moment it is just too wet. This means that those who have difficulty carrying tend to carry an extremely reduced set. As it is the players choice whether or not to enter these competitions there is no problem re posting scores.
However, if this were the case in the US or any other jurisdiction which has a wider description of scores that mus be posted, would you be obliged to post a score with an extremely reduced amount of clubs, not due to a competition rule, but due to the need to carry and the inability to carry a full set?

[jmudo]

I would say the score would still be posted. It is up to that individual to weigh fatigue vs set make up for what their best score will be. PCC adjustments should also help “level out” the posted scores. 

[Augster]

Nobody HAS to play with 14 clubs, but for posting purposes you must honestly be trying to shoot your best score. So there is a grey area. 
 

I asked the USGA about something like this a year or two ago and they never got back to me. My example was this: I pick up a set of 1950’s blades and persimmon clubs and decide I want to play them for an extended time just to try them out. Every time I am out with them, I try to shoot my best score. Do I post those scores? I’m not DELIBERATELY trying to manipulate my handicap, but I can guarantee my cap will go up. Then when there is an event, I break out my current set and play with my inflated cap. Should I post those scores?

 

The consensus around here is that, yes, I do post those scores as long as I’m trying to score my best on each hole, on each shot, there isn’t a handicap rule that says I always have to play with clubs that have been fit and Trackman optimized to my swing. The USGA never got back to me. 
 

So, with that in mind to answer your question, if the players are playing with less clubs to manipulate their handicap, then they shouldn’t post. But if, like you say, they are playing with less clubs, by their own choice for weight purposes, they should post the scores.

 

I won’t get into the preposterousness of not letting out push or pull carts. 

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, Augster said:

I won’t get into the preposterousness of not letting out push or pull carts. 

I would guess you have not played on UK courses under the present conditions. Especially on hilly ones.

[sui generis]

14 minutes ago, Augster said:

I won’t get into the preposterousness of not letting out push or pull carts. 

 

We've had it twice this year. It's either no carts of any kind or no golf. 

[Deceptively Short]

So if a player is carrying 4 clubs, as he can’t carry more (he normally would carriy 14 in his trolley but he is now not allowed to use due to club ruling on course conditions), he is then obliged to post the round?

[BlackDiamondPar5]

We occasionally will have a league event that requires us to play with only 4 clubs, one of which must be a putter. (It's actually a lot of fun) We don't post those scores.

 

When I read this from the USGA HC manual, seems to interpret this as a judgement call. It makes sense to me because the HC should be reflective of the players ability.  If it is not then you shouldn't post.

Rule 2 covers the conditions a score must satisfy for it to be acceptable for handicap purposes, providing confidence that it will produce reasonable evidence of the player’s ability and, ultimately, a Handicap Index that is reflective of demonstrated ability.

Edited December 22, 2020 by BlackDiamondPar5

[davep043]

56 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

We occasionally will have a league event that requires us to play with only 4 clubs, one of which must be a putter. (It's actually a lot of fun) We don't post those scores.

 

When I read this from the USGA HC manual, seems to interpret this as a judgement call. It makes sense to me because the HC should be reflective of the players ability.  If it is not then you shouldn't post.

Rule 2 covers the conditions a score must satisfy for it to be acceptable for handicap purposes, providing confidence that it will produce reasonable evidence of the player’s ability and, ultimately, a Handicap Index that is reflective of demonstrated ability.

If the competition rules limit you to fewer than 14 clubs, the Handicap Rules tell you not to post that.  Its in the graphic for Interpretation 2.1a.  If the player voluntarily chooses to use fewer than 14 clubs, its a bit more of a gray area.  

[rogolf]

33 minutes ago, davep043 said:

If the competition rules limit you to fewer than 14 clubs, the Handicap Rules tell you not to post that.  Its in the graphic for Interpretation 2.1a.  If the player voluntarily chooses to use fewer than 14 clubs, its a bit more of a gray area.  

I don't see carrying less that 14 clubs, by player choice, as a grey area.  Suggesting that if you don't carry 14 is not trying your best, it's akin to the situation where not using LCP every time, when the Local Rule is in place, is considered not trying your best.  Imo, "trying your best" is a player's responsibility to manage in the circumstances/conditions at the time.

Edited December 22, 2020 by rogolf

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

So if a player is carrying 4 clubs, as he can’t carry more (he normally would carriy 14 in his trolley but he is now not allowed to use due to club ruling on course conditions), he is then obliged to post the round?

Real physical limitations that would cause only carrying 4 clubs?

 

To me that's akin to illness or injury, but haven't read to see if that is a valid reason not to post.  Otherwise, just don't post it - is there a concern your club committee will take action adverse to you under that circumstance? I suppose that may be a concern, no experience with that.

[antip]

8 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

We are having, even for this damp island, a very wet period, certainly here in the South 

West. Our Course, which usually drains well is extremely wet; we therefore have buggy/cart bans and unusually a trolley ban.

For qualifying competitions we normally do all that we can to allow trollies but at the moment it is just too wet. This means that those who have difficulty carrying tend to carry an extremely reduced set. As it is the players choice whether or not to enter these competitions there is no problem re posting scores.
However, if this were the case in the US or any other jurisdiction which has a wider description of scores that mus be posted, would you be obliged to post a score with an extremely reduced amount of clubs, not due to a competition rule, but due to the need to carry and the inability to carry a full set?

Interesting opportunity for the club to run some 7 club competitions? Could get some more players out there accepting the different golfing challenge without needing to hump too much weight. Also works some useful swing skills.

[Deceptively Short]

Lots of people enjoy the challenge of playing many shots with the ‘wrong’ club (me included)- it sometimes goes well and sometimes not but it is a learning experience but I would certainly not, given the choice, remove 6, 7 or 8 clubs from my bag and claim to be trying to achieve my best possible score.

[rogolf]

5 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

Lots of people enjoy the challenge of playing many shots with the ‘wrong’ club (me included)- it sometimes goes well and sometimes not but it is a learning experience but I would certainly not, given the choice, remove 6, 7 or 8 clubs from my bag and claim to be trying to achieve my best possible score.

Maybe you didn't learn to play with a set that was a driver, 3, 5, 7 irons and a putter.  It took time and $$$$ to fill that set out, and the clubs did not match.  Some were Spalding, some were Wilson, some were Northwestern, some were MacGregor, usually very carefully picked out of a used club barrel in the pro shop.  And you learned to play with each of them.

Edited December 23, 2020 by rogolf

[Augster]

15 hours ago, Newby said:

I would guess you have not played on UK courses under the present conditions. Especially on hilly ones.

I’ve played on plenty of underwater courses. A 3-wheel push cart with a huge bag weighs about 40 pounds. Spread over 3 wheels, that’s less than 15 pounds per wheel. Basically like having a toddler walk the course with you. It’d be even less if a player put a Sunday bag onto a push cart. 
 

To not let out push and pull carts is a complete overreaction to course conditions. 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

I’ve played on plenty of underwater courses. A 3-wheel push cart with a huge bag weighs about 40 pounds. Spread over 3 wheels, that’s less than 15 pounds per wheel. Basically like having a toddler walk the course with you. It’d be even less if a player put a Sunday bag onto a push cart. 
 

To not let out push and pull carts is a complete overreaction to course conditions. 

You need to see some of the courses round here. For the last couple of months we have averaged 3.5"/mth. Wheels are/were churning up the ground. But the primary reason is trolleys skidding dangerously downhill and wheel spin uphill. It's not necessarily the fairways but the green to tee walkways that take the hammering. Hard surfaced cart paths are not that common here.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Newby

[rogolf]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I’ve played on plenty of underwater courses. A 3-wheel push cart with a huge bag weighs about 40 pounds. Spread over 3 wheels, that’s less than 15 pounds per wheel. Basically like having a toddler walk the course with you. It’d be even less if a player put a Sunday bag onto a push cart. 
 

To not let out push and pull carts is a complete overreaction to course conditions. 

"Trolleys" in the UK also include the electric (motorized) variety - they're actually quite common from what I've seen.

[Deceptively Short]

As a rough guide I would say that in any given day at our club about 5% of players use a buggy/cart, the rest walk of these 75% have trolleys the rest carry, trollies are split 75% electric 25% push. I would guess this is fairly typical.

[Stanks]

Prepare for every circumstance including playing with a half set. Being able to adapt to the elements is a requirement in every sport and competition so golf is nothing special here. If you’re having a hard time then it’s because you weren’t prepared. The guy that will beat you is better because he is prepared. 

I say play in bad weather as often as possible. It’ll only help you.

[DaveLeeNC]

So would I be correct in assuming that the 'trolley problem' is an "electric trolley problem". It seems to me that what we in the US  call an (unpowered) pull cart just would not be an issue. But I guess I have never tried one in muddy conditions - I carry when I walk. 

 

dave

[Deceptively Short]

Electric trolleys are worse than push, (the worst electric are the remote control ones as they turn by spinning one of the driving wheels), however the three wheels of the push trolley create a lot more wear (then mud) than two feet carrying a bag. Even with wide wheels they are in constant contact with the ground as opposed to feet which are in periodic contact. Having all players carry makes a really significant difference to wear on the course. 

We were locked down for all of November and when members returned to golf we allowed trolleys in wet conditions for the first week, they did a lot more damage in one week than in the subsequent 2 wetter weeks combined when players have been carrying. We won't get any repair or growth until mid April but temperatures will ok for golf so tee sheets will be full until then so we have to manage a mild wet winter. All this is exacerbated by no one going abroad to warmer climes and the extremely high demand. From a greens perspective I would welcome a couple weeks of snow but this rarely ever happens in our neck of the woods.

[bladehunter]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:39 AM, Augster said:

Nobody HAS to play with 14 clubs, but for posting purposes you must honestly be trying to shoot your best score. So there is a grey area. 
 

I asked the USGA about something like this a year or two ago and they never got back to me. My example was this: I pick up a set of 1950’s blades and persimmon clubs and decide I want to play them for an extended time just to try them out. Every time I am out with them, I try to shoot my best score. Do I post those scores? I’m not DELIBERATELY trying to manipulate my handicap, but I can guarantee my cap will go up. Then when there is an event, I break out my current set and play with my inflated cap. Should I post those scores?

 

The consensus around here is that, yes, I do post those scores as long as I’m trying to score my best on each hole, on each shot, there isn’t a handicap rule that says I always have to play with clubs that have been fit and Trackman optimized to my swing. The USGA never got back to me. 
 

So, with that in mind to answer your question, if the players are playing with less clubs to manipulate their handicap, then they shouldn’t post. But if, like you say, they are playing with less clubs, by their own choice for weight purposes, they should post the scores.

 

I won’t get into the preposterousness of not letting out push or pull carts. 

Excellent point.  Excellent train of thought.    In other words where is the line between trying your best and the level of equipment “ forgiveness “ you play? 

[Deceptively Short]

It is, I believe, a doubly grey area as the players are not playing with fewer clubs due to choice but rather due to a restriction placed on them by the course which means they are unable to have the amount of clubs that they normally would choose to shoot their best score.