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GSS marketing or legit?


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12 minutes ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

It's Bettinardi's DASS (Double Aged Stainless Steel) that is claimed to be double annealed. I've never heard Scotty Cameron's GSS 303 Stainless Steel described as double annealed.

 

But even if it were, I've owned over 20 DASS putters through the years and the steel is absolutely the same as any standard 303 stainless steel that Cameron uses.

 

At the end of the day, 303 Stainless has a very specific alloy mix and German 303 is not better or different than American 303. The purported difference is 100% marketing.

From a machining perspective it can be different. The alloy standard allows for the percentages to have a range. For example in medical grade 17-4 series StSt the sulfur percentage separates okay from good.

Alloys are like hamburgers. The ingredients are the basically universal, the result can vary quite a bit. Italians happen to be lousy at doing 303 cold rolled. I absolutely hate working with it and apparently my tools hate it too because they commit suicide whenever I tried it.

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GSS is just 303 Stainless sourced from Germany. There is nothing special about it, Scotty hasn't found a super secret supplier of metal that no one else has.    The reason it often costs so

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21 hours ago, MysteryV said:

I'd disregard every post claiming 100% certainty in either direction.  Unless you know exactly what steel GSS is, and the specific process it undergoes, and the QC processes involved, there's no way you can say with certainty. 

 

 

This is incorrect.  Japanese knives are typically significantly harder than German knives (and designed significantly differently).  This is why they can be sharpened to extreme angles but are prone to chipping and rust.

 

Some steel notes from various knife sites:

 

"In metallurgy stainless steel, also known as inox steel is defined as a steel alloy with a minimum of 10.5 or 11% chromium content by mass.  Most range around 13%."

 

http://www.aljacobskitchen.com/tools-of-the-trade/the-alchemy-of-steel.html

 

"Steel is a metal created from iron and carbon. Steel knives made with a higher carbon content tend to be much harder. Traditionally, Japanese made steel Knives have a higher carbon content than the German made Steel knives. This allows Japanese made steel knives to be thinner and have sharper edges. However, with a lower carbon content, German made steel knives are softer, making them more durable as well as allowing them to hold a sharp edge longer without sharpening. Basically, German made steel knives are made to be the workhorse of the kitchen. They are used in commercial kitchens where they cut through bone, hard vegetables and ice."

 

https://kyotoknives.com/blogs/from-our-blog/which-is-better-japanese-or-german-steel

 

 

I’ve been a chef for over 20 years and I’m not sure if I know any other chefs using German knives anymore.  Harder to sharpen and keep sharp, and generally designed heavier, which used to be considered a good thing, but most don’t consider it good anymore. Everyone I know uses Japanese knives nowadays...whether that is because the steel is “better” or just different I can’t say but my Japanese knives are just easier to work with.  Almost all of the commercial knives German or Japanese are super steels that are not forged in the traditional way anyways, so I don’t know if there really is anything to be compared between knives and putters.  You can find some carbon knives still but most working chefs don’t want to bother with the extra care it takes to keep them in good shape when mac, shun and so many others make knives that are so much easier to maintain...

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1 hour ago, jomatty said:

I’ve been a chef for over 20 years and I’m not sure if I know any other chefs using German knives anymore.  Harder to sharpen and keep sharp, and generally designed heavier, which used to be considered a good thing, but most don’t consider it good anymore. Everyone I know uses Japanese knives nowadays...whether that is because the steel is “better” or just different I can’t say but my Japanese knives are just easier to work with.  Almost all of the commercial knives German or Japanese are super steels that are not forged in the traditional way anyways, so I don’t know if there really is anything to be compared between knives and putters.  You can find some carbon knives still but most working chefs don’t want to bother with the extra care it takes to keep them in good shape when mac, shun and so many others make knives that are so much easier to maintain...

 

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On 12/22/2020 at 2:22 PM, High Draws Low Fades said:

I know Scotty has the whole GSS trademark thing. But is German stainless steel actually a different thing than regular stainless? Or is this just a marketing ploy?


Here’s a quote from a putter authority.

I hope it helps.

Cheers

 

 

5D929447-934A-48D3-B80A-883454D1184E.png

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I'll repeat.  Germany does not have a designation of "303 Stainless Steel".  ALL of these theories are based on every makers' "GSS" as being the same grade.   Not one maker has come out with the designation of what his stainless steel actually is, grade-wise in the German spec.  Like most of you, I have seen "303 GSS" stamped on one of the major maker's putters.  Sorry, but that might be a phrase or term that has a copyright, but it is not an accurate designation for a grade of stainless steel on the German market.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I know what the verbal exchange was when a certain maker decided to ask a manufacturer if he could send them a block of stainless steel big enough to machine a putter head.  When the guy stopped laughing at the maker's reasoning, he laid out the options.  "303 GSS" was NOT an option.

Like I said, it is fun to watch both sides, as I have lived on both sides in the past and know what each is going thru. 

More popcorn, dammit!

LaMont in AZ

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11 hours ago, metal_on_a_stick said:

this thread is out of control.  a putter is just metal on a stick. square it up hit it solid. embrace it no matter what its made of.

 

People want/need to justify spending several thousands for some "special metal" on a stick by claiming it's superior to other metals on a stick. 

 

Also this thread is more civil than your standard blade debate over on the Equipment page or even some WITB posts. 

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JIS SUS303

 

As many already know Gold's Factory does many Scotty Cameron putter tune up's in Japan. People actually send in their circle T's for major modification. Some Cameron fan's fully trick out their GSS (German Stainless Steel) putters as well.

 

We already know that GSS is a version of 303 steel similar to what other putter makers such as Gold's Factory use for many of their putter models.

 

Master Sasaya wanted to find out exactly what the differences were between J.I.S grade SUS303 from his supplier and Scotty's GSS German Stainless 303.

 

The results of the testing out of a U.S based laboratory indeed show they are both 303.

 

The main and most important minerals to take note of here are Nickel and Chromium. These in higher amounts produce the rewarding feel people hold dear in SUS303 putters. It's interesting to see that both Nickel & Chromium are higher in the JIS 303 vs GSS303.

 

This test was not intended to criticize GSS Scotty Cameron quality but rather show how J.I.S Japan Made quality is to the world's highest standards.

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8 hours ago, biliscupidez said:

JIS SUS303

 

The main and most important minerals to take note of here are Nickel and Chromium. These in higher amounts produce the rewarding feel people hold dear in SUS303 putters. It's interesting to see that both Nickel & Chromium are higher in the JIS 303 vs GSS303.

 


So if higher amounts of nickel are what creates the feel everyone is after, why don’t more putter makers use 316 surgical grade stainless? 
 

This whole GSS thing definitely seems like a marketing ploy. Scotty has his “SSS” material he is using, which is a level below his “GSS”. 

 

 

 

1A5ED032-15D2-46D1-8A80-A81575CD76A1.png

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On 12/23/2020 at 1:38 PM, Nard_S said:

From a machining perspective it can be different. The alloy standard allows for the percentages to have a range. For example in medical grade 17-4 series StSt the sulfur percentage separates okay from good.

Alloys are like hamburgers. The ingredients are the basically universal, the result can vary quite a bit. Italians happen to be lousy at doing 303 cold rolled. I absolutely hate working with it and apparently my tools hate it too because they commit suicide whenever I tried it.

I have some experience characterizing stainless steel's used in hypodermic needles, I work in the pharmaceutical /chemical industry. Also titanium alloys used in hip and knee replacements. The bottom line is the grain structure and size of micrograin structure of greatly affects their final property. 

This hamburger analogy is the closest description to being generally correct. The general alloy formula for 303 has such a wide margin for error in the formulation percentages you actually would expect to get a different tasting hamburger depending on if you hired a 17-year-old to mix up the batch (or not mix it properly), or if you hired a highly skilled engineer to manufacture the batch with an inprocess quality control laboratory precisely measuring ± 0.1% accuracy of the mixture. Additionally, if you go too far out of the formulation specification you now have one of the next grades of the 30 different types of stainless steel with completely different properties loss of magnetism, of hardness and vibration, tensile strength, brittlness and so on and so forth. So we can see when you add tiny amount of a component like 1% carbon you get much differnent properties. Especially when measured using high-level very discerning analytical equipment.

A lot of people are right these properties do not matter when the stainless steel is used as a boat anchor, every single stainless steel performs exactly the same in that application, the boat anchors in place. 

The German engineers have a history of being very analytical and very precise in their formulations of steel, and are manufactured and designed with a purpose and a highly analytical validation that meets specifications. Maybe we should compare it is to Chinese steel as an example of how to do it poorly, Additionally, as was pointed out it is quite well known that annealing, heating and cooling rates, final processing steps enhance the micro grain structure. I worked with some laboratories that characterized steel alloys for NASA the perfection of the grain structure is required for these applications to withstand the stresses required, this is where you do not want to 17-year-old mixing the batch, as incomplete mixing causes micro heterogeneous spots and cracks in the final product. 

These days everybody probably has the technology to create nearly perfect blocks of homogenous perfect microcrystalline 303 stainless. But the corporate strategy probably defines the approach...... is it good enough for most people, and low cost to make a profit, some of these steel mills only have one or two quality tests is the chromium content close enough checkmark, sell it.... or do I want a very high quality product that costs more money, is expensive, but is likely to fit a wider array of applications successfully, and create very happy customers. The homogenous microcrystalline structure is likely to vibrate better as well. Fewer voids, fewer cracks, fewer hotspots of pure metals that have not completely crystallized. This is where I think putter heads may actually possibly create better feel.  It is well known in the guitar industry that each piece of wood, indeed all solid materials have a resonant frequency that vibrates out a tone at a specific frequency more strongly than all frequency's when struck. I believe a piece of steel can also have a pleasant highly resonant frequency if the material is uniform.

So swagee's post of the putter engineer who has found the formula within the wide formula to find almost hand selected lots of 303, with the right formula to make a great microcrystalline structure. It is beleivalbe to me the sweet sound and feel may be there.

 Here are three teaching aids to teach ourselves.

 

Beautiful engineering paper (Great SEM photo of micrograin) on the techniques to make a superior stainless steels batches for hypodermic needles

https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/tubepipeproduction/grain-size-control-for-successfully-fabricating-stainless-and-inconel-alloy-tubing#:~:text=An average grain size of 6 or finer is required,poses problems by creating noise.

 

the manufacturing process is very complex, cheap steel is likely to be low quality and final annealing a hit an miss affair.

https://www.marlinwire.com/blog/how-is-stainless-steel-made

Cheers

 

 

SS Needle tubing.JPG

SS grain-size-control-final annealing steps.jpg

Edited by IronWolf
new pic
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For arguments sake, let’s agree that there’s a small yet measurable difference between stainless steel from Germany and everywhere else. And let’s also assume that if given two identical putters (one GSS one non), you can actually feel that difference. 
 

Why is GSS considered “better”? Why is different in this case better? Because Scotty Cameron and others who have followed suit and jumped on the GSS bandwagon and are charging a more are telling you it’s better? What if Cameron comes out today and says “I’m sorry, I was wrong, turns out GSS is awful. American stainless is best!”

 

What do you think happens on the secondary market to GSS putters from all makers? The market certainly drops while “SSS” increases. Why? Because marketing. 100% marketing. GSS is product marketing at its finest. Take something that’s basically the same as any other 303ss, charge a premium, and sell its assumed “superiority. 
 

The microscopic differences being discussed can’t make a putt for you.

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34 minutes ago, Scotty1140 said:

For arguments sake, let’s agree that there’s a small yet measurable difference between stainless steel from Germany and everywhere else. And let’s also assume that if given two identical putters (one GSS one non), you can actually feel that difference. 
 

Why is GSS considered “better”? Why is different in this case better? Because Scotty Cameron and others who have followed suit and jumped on the GSS bandwagon and are charging a more are telling you it’s better? What if Cameron comes out today and says “I’m sorry, I was wrong, turns out GSS is awful. American stainless is best!”

 

What do you think happens on the secondary market to GSS putters from all makers? The market certainly drops while “SSS” increases. Why? Because marketing. 100% marketing. GSS is product marketing at its finest. Take something that’s basically the same as any other 303ss, charge a premium, and sell its assumed “superiority. 
 

The microscopic differences being discussed can’t make a putt for you.

 

 

I agree with everything you've written and will say this...

 

Even if we accept that certain productions of 303 stainless can be better than others, we have no evidence--NONE--that the grade of steel that Cameron uses in his putters that are marketed as "GSS" is any better than your typical, quality, American made 303 stainless steel. And yet he charges thousands more for the putters made with what he calls "GSS."

 

 

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4 hours ago, IronWolf said:

I have some experience characterizing stainless steel's used in hypodermic needles, I work in the pharmaceutical /chemical industry. Also titanium alloys used in hip and knee replacements. The bottom line is the grain structure and size of micrograin structure of greatly affects their final property. 

This hamburger analogy is the closest description to being generally correct. The general alloy formula for 303 has such a wide margin for error in the formulation percentages you actually would expect to get a different tasting hamburger depending on if you hired a 17-year-old to mix up the batch (or not mix it properly), or if you hired a highly skilled engineer to manufacture the batch with an inprocess quality control laboratory precisely measuring ± 0.1% accuracy of the mixture. Additionally, if you go too far out of the formulation specification you now have one of the next grades of the 30 different types of stainless steel with completely different properties loss of magnetism, of hardness and vibration, tensile strength, brittlness and so on and so forth. So we can see when you add tiny amount of a component like 1% carbon you get much differnent properties. Especially when measured using high-level very discerning analytical equipment.

A lot of people are right these properties do not matter when the stainless steel is used as a boat anchor, every single stainless steel performs exactly the same in that application, the boat anchors in place. 

The German engineers have a history of being very analytical and very precise in their formulations of steel, and are manufactured and designed with a purpose and a highly analytical validation that meets specifications. Maybe we should compare it is to Chinese steel as an example of how to do it poorly, Additionally, as was pointed out it is quite well known that annealing, heating and cooling rates, final processing steps enhance the micro grain structure. I worked with some laboratories that characterized steel alloys for NASA the perfection of the grain structure is required for these applications to withstand the stresses required, this is where you do not want to 17-year-old mixing the batch, as incomplete mixing causes micro heterogeneous spots and cracks in the final product. 

These days everybody probably has the technology to create nearly perfect blocks of homogenous perfect microcrystalline 303 stainless. But the corporate strategy probably defines the approach...... is it good enough for most people, and low cost to make a profit, some of these steel mills only have one or two quality tests is the chromium content close enough checkmark, sell it.... or do I want a very high quality product that costs more money, is expensive, but is likely to fit a wider array of applications successfully, and create very happy customers. The homogenous microcrystalline structure is likely to vibrate better as well. Fewer voids, fewer cracks, fewer hotspots of pure metals that have not completely crystallized. This is where I think putter heads may actually possibly create better feel.  It is well known in the guitar industry that each piece of wood, indeed all solid materials have a resonant frequency that vibrates out a tone at a specific frequency more strongly than all frequency's when struck. I believe a piece of steel can also have a pleasant highly resonant frequency if the material is uniform.

So swagee's post of the putter engineer who has found the formula within the wide formula to find almost hand selected lots of 303, with the right formula to make a great microcrystalline structure. It is beleivalbe to me the sweet sound and feel may be there.

 Here are three teaching aids to teach ourselves.

 

Beautiful engineering paper (Great SEM photo of micrograin) on the techniques to make a superior stainless steels batches for hypodermic needles

https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/tubepipeproduction/grain-size-control-for-successfully-fabricating-stainless-and-inconel-alloy-tubing#:~:text=An average grain size of 6 or finer is required,poses problems by creating noise.

 

the manufacturing process is very complex, cheap steel is likely to be low quality and final annealing a hit an miss affair.

https://www.marlinwire.com/blog/how-is-stainless-steel-made

Cheers

 

 

SS Needle tubing.JPG

SS grain-size-control-final annealing steps.jpg

Really well said, thank you.

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2 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

 

I agree with everything you've written and will say this...

 

Even if we accept that certain productions of 303 stainless can be better than others, we have no evidence--NONE--that the grade of steel that Cameron uses in his putters that are marketed as "GSS" is any better than your typical, quality, American made 303 stainless steel. And yet he charges thousands more for the putters made with what he calls "GSS."

 

 

Exactly. Is there some measurable, discernible difference? Sure it looks like it. But it’s still 303SS any way you slice it. 
 

Just because it’s marginally “different” doesn’t make it better. Yet Cameron has taken this minuscule difference, labeled it as higher quality, slapped a big price tag on it and it was hook line and sinker from there. 
 

Makes you wonder if GSS would even be a thing had Tiger’s NP2 had been made from “SSS”...

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2 hours ago, Scotty1140 said:

Exactly. Is there some measurable, discernible difference? Sure it looks like it. But it’s still 303SS any way you slice it. 
 

Just because it’s marginally “different” doesn’t make it better. Yet Cameron has taken this minuscule difference, labeled it as higher quality, slapped a big price tag on it and it was hook line and sinker from there. 
 

Makes you wonder if GSS would even be a thing had Tiger’s NP2 had been made from “SSS”...

 

 

In all seriousness, how do we know Tiger's putter was made from GSS? That's what Scotty says but how would we know? It's not even stamped GSS.

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2 hours ago, Scotty1140 said:

Exactly. Is there some measurable, discernible difference? Sure it looks like it.

 

 

I would dispute whether their is a measurable, discernible difference. People in this thread with more knowledge of metallurgy than me have stated that it's possible for their to be a difference between two bars of 303 stainless, but we have no evidence that the 303 Cameron markets as GSS is measurably or discernibly different from the 303 stainless used in Cameron's OTR putters.

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It would be interesting to use a xrf gun on some of these alloys used in putters and see exactly how much difference there really is.

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MGS should definitely blind test variations of 303s.

Edited by dokodiy
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19 minutes ago, dokodiy said:

MGS should definitely blind test variations of 303s.

 

Unless they get an unbiased source to mill every head exactly the same with different types of 303 and say carbon or other metals the test is useless as there are many factors that can change sound/feel. 

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2 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

Unless they get an unbiased source to mill every head exactly the same with different types of 303 and say carbon or other metals the test is useless as there are many factors that can change sound/feel. 

 

Of course the only delta in this case would be the metal, other factors such as face milling, weight, loft, lie etc would remain exactly the same for the result to make sense.

I’m sure they can figure out the exact methodology. 

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I heard Scotty Cameron is coming out with putters made of low background steel. It's being sourced from Scapa Flow but there's interest in recovering some from the South Pacific as well.  Robert Ballard, finder of the Titanic, is in on it. 

Just kidding.

GSS and DASS is marketing puffery or less charitably, BS. 

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On 1/7/2021 at 4:13 PM, dokodiy said:

MGS should definitely blind test variations of 303s.

I like this idea, A LOT

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What I can tell you from personal experience.  GSS comes out a darker color than “ regular “ 303.  I don’t know why or how. But if you put a “ cast blast “ finish on it. It will be a shade darker.  
 

also.  It is easier to weld.  I’ve had the pleasure or displeasure of welding a neck on both ( metal fab is my work ) and GSS is cleaner.     Again.  I don’t know why.  But it is.  
 

3rd. Having rolled a GSS stick for several years how.  It seems to hold its finish and resist stains etc better than any other stainless putter I’ve ever had.  And I don’t baby it.  I use it on fertilized greens , rain , etc.  just a quick wipe and back in the cover.  

Edited by bladehunter
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On 1/7/2021 at 4:48 PM, MattM97 said:

 

Unless they get an unbiased source to mill every head exactly the same with different types of 303 and say carbon or other metals the test is useless as there are many factors that can change sound/feel. 

This is true.  You’d have to make identical heads.  Abd I say that again. From experience. 
 

mine has a very deep cut cavity.  With 3 dots milled out.  A very thin topline. And then a sound slot on the sole.  Not cut into the face.  So it has almost a springy feel. With a distinct click.  It’s so unique I’ve never felt close to it.  And anyone I let hit a ball with it is in shock.  Feels like rolling a putt with a hybrid almost.  Minus the super hot face.  
 

so yes. You can’t just take a GSS putter snd compare IT to any stainless putter. To many other variables. 

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      2021 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Tuesday #6
      2021 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Tuesday #7
      2021 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Tuesday #8
      2021 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Tuesday #9
      2021 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Tuesday #10
       

       
       
      • 13 replies
    • 2021 WGC Workday Championship @ The Concession Photos- Links & Discussion (UpDaTeD)
      Please post any questions or comments here.
       
      Links...
       
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #3
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #4
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 WGC Workday Championship - Tuesday #6
      Cameron Smith's Cameron 11.5 putter - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Cameron putter 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      2021 Ping putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Rory wearing new Nike Tour Victory II shoes - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
      Odyssey putters - 2021 WGC Workday Championship
       
      • 66 replies
    • 2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - discussion
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #1
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #2
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #3
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #4
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #7
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #8
       
      2021 AT&T Pebble Beach - Tuesday #9

      Ryan Moore with Axis 1 putter @ 2021 AT&T PB
       
       
       
      Please post any questions and comments here
      • 59 replies
    • 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion
      General galleries
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #1
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #2
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #3
      2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Tuesday #4
      Monday Qualifier for Waste Management Open 
      Special galleries
       
      Ping PLD putters - 2021 WMPO Scott Brown with MMT graphite shafts in his ProTo Concept irons - 2021 WMPO TaylorMade putter cover from 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open New Srixon golf balls - 2021 WMPO Bettinardi putters & cover - 2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Piretti putters -2021 Waste Management Phoenix Open Cameron mallets - 2021 WMPO Odyssey 2-ball Ten - 2021 WMPO  
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      Jason Day's Bag...
        • Like
      • 21 replies
    • 2021 FARMERS WITB & Equipment Photos- Links and comments
      We are back on the ground at the 2021 Farmers PGA Tour event. Please add you comments in this thread. Here are links to all the galleries:
       
      Special galleries:
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #1
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #2
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #3
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #4
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #5
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #6
       
      2021 Farmers - Tuesday #7
       
      Cameron putters - Farmers 2021
       
      Odyssey 2-ball Ten - Farmers 2021
       
      Project X Even Flow RipTide MX & LX proto shafts - Framers 2021
       
      TaylorMade putter cover for Torrey Pines - Farmers 2021
       
      Sling Shot training aid - Farmers 2021
       
       
      • 47 replies

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