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This subject pops up, from time to time and is always a good read.   Most of us are golfers, putter junkies and weekend PGA hopefuls.  THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Very few of the comments m

GSS is just 303 Stainless sourced from Germany. There is nothing special about it, Scotty hasn't found a super secret supplier of metal that no one else has.    The reason it often costs so

Scotty GSS 303 : Analysis document at the end attached: GSS has more silicon, more copper, more cobalt, more molybdenum, less chromium. Less manganese. It is likely softer. the differences are me

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31 minutes ago, IronWolf said:

Scotty GSS 303 : Analysis document at the end attached:

GSS has more silicon, more copper, more cobalt, more molybdenum, less chromium. Less manganese. It is likely softer. the differences are measurable

@IronWolf: Thanks for sharing. 
For the tabular summary that you shared, i briefly skimmed but didn't see the source/ Link in your message .... sorry if i missed it.  
The source = Link copied below, in case the folks want to seek more info themselves?.

Link: http://forum.tourspecgolf.com/topic/30002-gss-german-303-vs-jis-sus-303/
 

Edited by JungleJimbo
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30 minutes ago, JungleJimbo said:

@IronWolf: Thanks for sharing. 
For the tabular summary that you shared, i briefly skimmed but didn't see the source/ Link in your message .... sorry if i missed it.  
The source = Link copied below, in case the folks want to seek more info themselves?.

Link: http://forum.tourspecgolf.com/topic/30002-gss-german-303-vs-jis-sus-303/
 

Indeed correct.  It was my intent to credit the original authors. steel properties.

http://www.astmsteel.com/steel-knowledge/chemical-elements-and-effects-mechanical-properties/

Thx

cheers

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5 hours ago, IronWolf said:

Scotty GSS 303 : Analysis document at the end attached:

GSS has more silicon, more copper, more cobalt, more molybdenum, less chromium. Less manganese. It is likely softer. the differences are measurable, it is funny to listen to people say they know there is no difference. or conspiracy theory that it is some sort of marketing gimmick.  So you are right, you cannot tell the difference.... most likely. But if you listen to any of the interviews of Scotty he has basically made putters out of nearly every single metal alloy on the planet Earth, he would know if a certain recipe from a certain steel mill felt better to some of the professional players, but he does not recommend it if you are not a professional. so most of us should not own a German stainless steel putter.

I have continued to dig & build some webpage links for elucidating some real differences. I agree only 25% of the golfers have the hands and the skill necessary to probably feel the difference. And some golfers may prefer the slightly harder 303 version (non-GSS), But the elemental analysis of high-level laboratories can measure the difference.

 

so I know these forums are not for true learning and that most posts are less than one sentence.  so this is actual learning, a reference document,  if you do want to learn. not for the faint of heart.

Cheers

 

21 Chemical Elements and Effects on Steel Mechanical Properties

Steel in general is an alloy of carbon and iron, it does contain many other elements, some of which are retained from the steel making process, other elements are added to produce specific properties. We can see some most common chemical elements with important effects on steel properties.

 1. Carbon (C)

Carbon is the most important element in steel, it is essential in steels which have to be hardened by quenching and the degree of carbon controls the hardness and strength of the material, as well as response to heat treatment (hardenability).
And ductility, forgeability and machinability will decrease if the amount of carbon increases, as well as weldability properties of the steel.

 2. Manganese (Mn)

Manganese could be the second most important element after Carbon on steel. Mn has effects similar to those of carbon, and the steel producer uses these two elements in combination to obtain a material with the desired properties. Manganese is a necessity for the process of hot rolling of steel by its combination with oxygen and sulfur.    Its presence has below main effects:

  • It is a mild deoxidant acting as a cleanser taking the sulphur and oxygen out of the melt into the slag.
  • It increases the harden ability and tensile strength but decreases ductility.
  • It combines with sulphur to form globular manganese sulphides, essential in free cutting steels for good machinability.

Steels usually contain at least 0.30% manganese, however, amounts of up to 1.5% can be found in some carbon steels.

Manganese also tends to increase the rate of carbon penetration during carburizing and acts as a mild deoxidizing agent. However when too high carbon and too high manganese accompany each other, embrittlement sets in. Manganese is capable to form Manganese Sulphide (MnS) with sulphur, which is beneficial to machining. At the same time, it counters the brittleness from sulphur and is beneficial to the surface finish of carbon steel.

For welding purposes, the ratio of manganese to sulphur should be at least 10 to 1. Manganese content of less than 0.30% may promote internal porosity and cracking in the weld bead, cracking can also result if the content is over 0.80%. Steel with low Manganese Sulphide ratio may contain sulphur in the form of iron Sulphide (FeS), which can cause cracking in the weld.

3. Phosphorus (P)

Although it increases the tensile strength of steel and improves machinability it is generally regarded as an undesirable impurity because of its embrittling effect.

Effect of phosphorus element will have various effects on steel depending on concentration.
The maximum amount of phosphorus in higher grade steel is between 0.03 to 0.05% due to the fact that is detrimental. Up to 0.10% of phosphorus in low-alloy high-strength steels will increase the strength as well as improve the steel's resistance against corrosion. The possibility of brittlement increases when the content in hardened steel is too high. Even though the strength and hardness is improved, the ductility and toughness decreases.

The machinability is improved in free-cutting steel, but weld brittle and/or weld cracks can occur during welding if the phosphorus content is more than 0.04%. Phosphorus also affects the thickness of the zinc layer when galvanising steel.

4. Sulfur (S)

Sulfur is normally regarded as an impurity and has an adverse effect on impact properties when a steel is high in sulphur and low in manganese. Sulphur improves machinability but lowers transverse ductility and notched impact toughness and has little effects on the longitudinal mechanical properties. Its content is limited to 0.05% in steels but is added to free cutting steels in amount up to 0.35% with the manganese content increased to counter any detrimental effects since alloying additions of sulfur in amounts from 0.10% to 0.30% will tend to improve the machinability of a steel. Such types may be referred to as "resulfurized" or "freemachining". Free cutting steels have sulphur added to improve machinability, usually up to a maximum of 0.35%.

Even though the effect of sulphur on steel is negative at certain stages, any sulphur content less than 0.05% has a positive effect on steel grades.

5. Silicon (Si)

Silicon is one of the principal deoxidizers for steel. Silicon helps to remove bubbles of oxygen from the molten steel. It is the element that is most commonly used to produce semi- and fully killed steels, and normally appears in amounts less than 0.40 percent, usually only small amounts (0.20%) are present in rolled steel when it is used as a deoxidizer. However, in steel castings, 0.35 to 1.00% is commonly present.

Silicon dissolves in iron and tends to strengthen it. Some filler metals may contain up to 1% to provide enhanced cleaning and deoxidation for welding on contaminated surfaces. When these filler metals are used for welding on clean surfaces, the resulting weld metal strength will be markedly increased. Silicon increases strength and hardness but to a lesser extent than manganese. The resulting decrease in ductility could resent cracking problems.

For galvanizing purposes, steels containing more than 0.04% silicon can greatly affect the thickness and appearance of the galvanized coating. This will result in thick coatings consisting mainly zinc-iron alloys and the surface has a dark and dull finish. But it provides as much corrosion protection as a shiny galvanized coating where the outer layer is pure zinc.

6. Chromium (Cr)

Chromium is a powerful alloying element in steel. Cr presents in certain structural steels in small amounts. It is primarily used to increase hardenability of steel and increase the corrosion resistance as well as the yield strength of the steel material. For that reason often occurs in combination with nickel and copper. Stainless steels may contain in excess of 12% chromium. The well-known “18-8” stainless steel contains 8 percent of nickel and 18 percent of chromium.

When the percent of chromium in the steel exceeds 1.1% a surface layer is formed that helps protect the steel against oxidation.

7. Vanadium (V)

The effects of Vanadium chemical element are similar to those of Mn, Mo, and Cb. When used with other alloying elements it restricts grain growth, refines grain size, increases hardenability, fracture toughness, and resistance to shock loading. Softening at high temperatures, fatigue stress and wear resistance are improved. At greater than 0.05%, there may be a tendency for the steel to become embrittled during thermal stress relief treatments.

Vanadium is used in nitriding, heat resisting, tool and spring steels together with other alloying elements.

8. Tungsten (W)

It is used with chromium, vanadium, molybdenum, or manganese to produce high speed steel used in cutting tools. Tungsten steel is said to be "red-hard" or hard enough to cut after it becomes red-hot.
After heat treatment the steel maintains its hardness at high temperature making it particularly suitable for cutting tools.

Tungsten in the form of tungsten carbide

  • Gives steel high hardness even at red heats.
  • Promotes fine grains
  • Resists heat
  • Promote strength at elevated temperatures

9. Molybdenum (Mo)

Molybdenum has effects similar to manganese and vanadium, and is often used in combination with one or the other. This element is a strong carbide former and is usually present in alloy steels in amounts less than 1%. It increases hardenability and elevated temperature strength and also improves corrosion resistance as well as increased creep strength. It is added to stainless steels to increase their resistance to corrosion and is also used in high speed tool steels.

10. Cobalt (Co)

Cobalt improves strength at high temperatures and magnetic permeability.

Increases hardness, also allows for higher quenching temperatures (during the heat treatment procedure). Intensifies the individual effects of other elements in more complex steels. Co is not a carbide former, however adding Cobalt to the alloy allows for higher attainable hardness and higher red hot hardness.

11. Nickel (Ni)

In addition to its favorable effect on the corrosion resistance of steel, Ni is added to steels to increase hardenability. Nickel enhances the low-temperature behavior of the material by improving the fracture toughness. The weldability of the steel is not decreased by the presence of this element. The nickel drastically increases the notch toughness of the steel.

Nickel is often used in combination with other alloying elements, especially chromium and molybdenum. It is a key component in stainless steels but at the low concentrations found in carbon steels. Stainless steels contain between 8% and 14% nickel.

One more reason Ni is added to an alloy is that it creates brighter portions in damascus steels.

12. Copper (Cu)

Copper is another primary corrosion resistance elements. It also has a small impact on hardenability. It is typically found in amounts not less than 0.20 percent, and is the primary anti-corrosion component in steel grades like A242 and A441.

Most often found as a residual agent in steels, copper is also added to produce precipitation hardening properties and increase corrosion resistance.

13. Aluminum (Al)

Aluminum is one of the most important deoxidizers in very small amounts in the material, and also
helps form a more fine-grained crystalline microstructure and increase the steel grade’s toughness. It is usually used in combination with silicon to obtain a semi- or fully killed steel.

14. Titanium (Ti)

Ti is used to control grain size growth, which improves toughness. Also transforms sulfide inclusions form elongated to globular, improving strength and corrosion resistance as well as toughness and ductility.

Ti is a very strong, very lightweight metal that can be used alone or alloyed with steels. It is added to steel to give them high strength at high temperatures. Modern jet engines used titanium steels.

  • It prevents localized depletion of chromium in stainless steels during long heating
  • Prevents formation of austenite in high chromium steels
  • Reduces martensitic hardness and hardenability in medium chromium steels.

15. Niobium(Nb, formerly known as Columbium-Columbium, Cb )

Niobium is a key grain refining element, as well a strength-enhancing elements in steel production. Niobium is a strong carbide former and forms very hard, very small, simple carbides. Improves ductility, hardness, wear and corrosion resistance. Also, refines grain structure. Formerly known as Columbium.

16. Boron (B)

The most important effect and the purpose of boron in steel is to drastically improve the hardenability.

The biggest advantage of boron is that a small amount can be added to get the same result as other elements required in large amount in terms of added hardenability. Typical range in steel alloys is 0.0005 to 0.003%.

During the heat treatment process boron, a replacement for other elements, is added to increase the hardenability of medium carbon steel. The cutting performance for high-speed steels is increased but at the expense of the forging quality. It is also possible that the content of boron can be too high which decreases hardenability, toughness as well as cause embrittlement. The percentage carbon present in the steel also plays a role in the hardenability effect of boron. As boron's effect on hardenability increases the amount of carbon should proportionally be decreased.

When boron is added to steel, precaution must be taken to ensure that it does not react with oxygen or nitrogen as the combination of boron with either one of the two will make the boron useless.

17. Lead (Pb)

The addition of lead in levels in very small amounts to improve machinability, up to 0.30%, improves machinability. Providing the distribution is homogenous it has little effect on the physical properties of the steel, and contrary to popular belief, it does not affect weld ability.

18. Zirconium (Zr)

Zirconium is added to steel to modify the shape of inclusions. Typically added to low alloy, low carbon steels. The result is that toughness and ductility are improved when transforms shape from elongated to globular, improving toughness and ductility.

19. Tantalum (Ta)

Chemically very similar to Niobium (Nb), as such, has similar effect on the alloy - forms very hard, very small, simple carbides. Improves ductility, hardness, wear and corrosion resistance. Also, refines grain.

20. Nitrogen (N)

Nitrogen acts very similar to Carbon in the alloy. N substitutes C in small amounts (or even large, with modern technologies) to increase hardness. Obviously, Nitrogen forms Nitrides, not Carbides. INFI has N, and there's few more, with Sandvik being the champion, having 3% N in the alloy, completely substituting C. Sadly, not available for knife makers. Because Nitrogen is less prone to form Chromium nitrides than Carbon is to form Chromium carbides, its presence improves corrosion resistance, leaving more free Chromium in the alloy. Since Nitrogen is less reactive in forming Nitrides, it can be used for added hardness without increasing carbide size and volume, e.g. Sandvik 14C28N steel.

21. Selenium (Se)

Typically not desirable in cutlery steel. Added to improve machinability. Similar with Sulfur, in the same chalcogen group.

 

 

Scotty GSS elemental analysis vs common 303.jpg

 

B.S. masquerading as science. Show me how it matters to a golfer.  Hint: it doesn't.

 

I could prove there is a "measurable difference" between two turds I drop. But at the end of the day they are just turds.

Edited by Mustard_Tiger
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9 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

B.S. masquerading as science. Show me how it matters to a golfer.  Hint: it doesn't.

 

I could prove there is a "measurable difference" between two turds I drop. But at the end of the day they are just turds.

It was stated that there is probably five different types of golfer that is why we have handicaps. 80% the "a golfer" do not really pay attention to the details of putting the same as a professional. As more and more engineers start studying the elements of putting, they are uncovering multiple simultaneous things to consider.  The top three the big three putter manufacturers have all stated that one of the most important things to feel, is the sound the putter makes with contact with the ball. 80% of the golfers I know play a different construction golf ball every week or every round, and half of them hit range balls. It is becoming clear the resonance frequency, the tone of the putter, the tone of the ball, are a major part of the feel, as well as the velocity of the ball off of the face.  Professionals play one type of ball for years that is how they get the sensitivity of what a different putter sounds and feels like when they stroke the ball. It sounds, feels, and has a different velocity off of the face.  So I would say it until you start playing one particular ball most golfers would not have that ability to feel a difference in the putter, it already feels different every time they putt because of the different balls they use. So I agree it does not matter because we play such different types of balls every week. 

I believe there is going to be some more studies coming out on how different ball types skid and spin and vary launch angle off of the various new putter designs, that different ball construction is a strong consideration on what type of putter you should put in play. Similar to the studies with driver spin and launch angle.

Cheers

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13 hours ago, Mustard_Tiger said:

 

B.S. masquerading as science. Show me how it matters to a golfer.  Hint: it doesn't.

 

I could prove there is a "measurable difference" between two turds I drop. But at the end of the day they are just turds.

Goal posts moved.  Lol.   Nobody anywhere asked if it helped a golfer.  

  • Haha 1

 

Mavrik 10.5 * KBS TD Category 5 

Mavrik subzero 16.5 * Tensie CK blue 80TX 

Mavrik subzero 18* Accra TZ6 85-m5

Titleist T100 4-pw modus 130x 

Vokey sm7 raw 50*54*58 v grind Amt s400

Cameron GSS 009  1.5 , sound slot , tungsten sole weights , head speed shaft. 

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3 hours ago, IronWolf said:

It was stated that there is probably five different types of golfer that is why we have handicaps. 80% the "a golfer" do not really pay attention to the details of putting the same as a professional. As more and more engineers start studying the elements of putting, they are uncovering multiple simultaneous things to consider.  The top three the big three putter manufacturers have all stated that one of the most important things to feel, is the sound the putter makes with contact with the ball. 80% of the golfers I know play a different construction golf ball every week or every round, and half of them hit range balls. It is becoming clear the resonance frequency, the tone of the putter, the tone of the ball, are a major part of the feel, as well as the velocity of the ball off of the face.  Professionals play one type of ball for years that is how they get the sensitivity of what a different putter sounds and feels like when they stroke the ball. It sounds, feels, and has a different velocity off of the face.  So I would say it until you start playing one particular ball most golfers would not have that ability to feel a difference in the putter, it already feels different every time they putt because of the different balls they use. So I agree it does not matter because we play such different types of balls every week. 

I believe there is going to be some more studies coming out on how different ball types skid and spin and vary launch angle off of the various new putter designs, that different ball construction is a strong consideration on what type of putter you should put in play. Similar to the studies with driver spin and launch angle.

Cheers

Thanks for posting that.  Makes perfect sense from a welders point of view.  Explains why I saw how much cleaner GSS would burn than plain 303.  

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Mavrik 10.5 * KBS TD Category 5 

Mavrik subzero 16.5 * Tensie CK blue 80TX 

Mavrik subzero 18* Accra TZ6 85-m5

Titleist T100 4-pw modus 130x 

Vokey sm7 raw 50*54*58 v grind Amt s400

Cameron GSS 009  1.5 , sound slot , tungsten sole weights , head speed shaft. 

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