HBO: Tiger (2021)

[Greg_B]

The folks at NLU just dropped a podcast with the producers of the documentary. Worth a listen:

 

https://t.co/Tu35wGF0Rr?amp=1

[bscinstnct]

2 hours ago, Greg_B said:

 

This pretty much sums it up. From the time of his pro debut until 2009 you saw nothing about him other than how great he was on the course, because the off-course side was carefully shielded from view except for the parts that could polish his image. His team of handlers and those who depended on that image (Nike et al) made sure of that. Only once that charade all fell apart did we begin to see the full picture of the man, warts and all. It is interesting to me that even at that, it took nearly 10 years for the image to change as he tried to repair the body that he damaged and the ravages of age (to use a Henry Longhurst line) began to get a grip on him physically. God only knows what his mental state was during all that, but from the arrest for impairment near the end of that period, it is probably safe to say it wasn't good.

 

The point is that all we had ever seen were Golf Channel/TV network puff pieces until that time, and even after that, they still treated him with kid gloves while reporting the new and less flattering revelations about him. The Masters win in 2019 started the redemption story, and maybe he has changed, although we really don't know for sure. His behavior at tournaments over the last 2 years seems to be much more human and "normal", but we probably will never know if that is real or just what we are allowed to see because his image is still carefully managed. Regardless, this documentary fills in the blank spots in the pre-2019 picture of the man that was all we were privy to until recently, with little to no visibility towards his often despicable behavior and flawed personality. In that sense it is placing him on the same level as any other PGA Tour player or media celebrity, and what's good for one is good for all.

 

I gave a quick listen to the podcast , I did fast forward a bit ; )

 

But, I did catch an interesting comment that contrasts with you saying,

 

“The Masters win in 2019 started the redemption story,”

 

 

The directors of the documentary say (paraphrasing)...

 

They don’t think TW had anything to redeem himself for (as far as the public) That all of the personal stuff was between him and his family.

 

And this is exactly what I think. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by bscinstnct

[QuigleyDU]

From what I can tell this is a pretty fair doc. It is not necessarily nice, but does it need to be?

 

I started to listen to Johnny Wunders gear dive but couldn’t finish as his Tiger worship is too much for me. He hates it as it tears down his hero. Tigers personal life in no way diminishes his on course achievements. We can talk about them separately.

[bscinstnct]

12 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

From what I can tell this is a pretty fair doc. It is not necessarily nice, but does it need to be?

 

I started to listen to Johnny Wunders gear dive but couldn’t finish as his Tiger worship is too much for me. He hates it as it tears down his hero. Tigers personal life in no way diminishes his on course achievements. We can talk about them separately.

 

Exactly. The only thing I feel TW needs “redemption” from the public on are things that affected

 

The public!

 

The dui would be an example.

And being a cheap tipper. I hope he stopped with that he should make a big public apology and start a fund to help waitstaff! 
 

And his casual attire which, at times, has been truly offensive 😂

 

 

[Duct Tape]

On 1/12/2021 at 9:04 AM, CasualLie said:

 

Affairs with 10 women?  Hardly.  Repeatedly slept with a bunch of them sure, but no man can manage emotional attachment to 10 different women at the same time. 

I don’t know man, he is after all the “GOAT”. 😉
 

 

 

 

[QuigleyDU]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Exactly. The only thing I feel TW needs “redemption” from the public on are things that affected

 

The public!

 

The dui would be an example.

And being a cheap tipper. I hope he stopped with that he should make a big public apology and start a fund to help waitstaff! 
 

And his casual attire which, at times, has been truly offensive 😂

 

 

Seriously bad dresser.. haha.

 

they should make a doc about it.

[Scotty1140]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Exactly. The only thing I feel TW needs “redemption” from the public on are things that affected

 

The public!

 

The dui would be an example.

And being a cheap tipper. I hope he stopped with that he should make a big public apology and start a fund to help waitstaff! 
 

And his casual attire which, at times, has been truly offensive 😂

 

 

 Cheap tipper huh? I thought there were a few waitresses he was treating “better than most.”

[Rory4Pres]

The last time I heard a guy born to only do one thing it was in the movie 300.  So there's the guy born to be a warrior and Tiger, born to be a golfer (thanks to his Dad forcing the matter on him).  

[BraxtonFullerton]

On 12/23/2020 at 3:34 AM, MattyO1984 said:

This should definitely be a good watch. Definitely cashing in on some of the Last Dance hype by having another GOAT documentary but if it is half as a good as Last Dance then it will still be good.

 

That's the feeling I'm getting from this as well.

 

A lot of similarities between him and Jordan; with how they used those tiny jabs/sleights and made motivational mountains out of those mole hills to become the GOAT at their craft.

I'm still a little disappointed that Jordan didn't talk more about racism and growing up with it, compared to how Scotty was candid during TLD... I still remember a lot of the ugliness as Tiger turned pro and started taking the tour by force in the late 90s. I would love to see/hear his thoughts on what he's seen and felt over the course of his career.

 

I don't think Masters 2019 was the start of his "redemption" tour. I think that was the culmination of it. For the past few years he's been candid and very relaxed around media and other players... Something that was utterly unthinkable in his prime because it would've shattered the mystique and intimidation that buckled so many contenders on Sunday.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Rory4Pres said:

The last time I heard a guy born to only do one thing it was in the movie 300.  So there's the guy born to be a warrior and Tiger, born to be a golfer (thanks to his Dad forcing the matter on him).  

 

Tiger be like

 

 

[Greg_B]

21 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

I gave a quick listen to the podcast , I did fast forward a bit ; )

 

But, I did catch an interesting comment that contrasts with you saying,

 

“The Masters win in 2019 started the redemption story,”

 

 

The directors of the documentary say (paraphrasing)...

 

They don’t think TW had anything to redeem himself for (as far as the public) That all of the personal stuff was between him and his family.

 

And this is exactly what I think. 

 

 

I would disagree. He hit rock bottom in 2017 with the DUI thanks to his use of tranquilizers and sleep aids, so it had to be all uphill from there. In 2018 he found a way to get around the golf course again and won a silly season event near the end of the year, which caused much cheering from his worshippers, but most recognized it for what it was. It wasn't until he won the Masters in April 2019 that the new Tiger was embraced widely as a changed person and that's when the redemption chatter really took life. I don't buy all of that and suspect a lot of it was carefully crafted by Steiny & co. although clearly his behavior has mellowed out. His play over the last year has meant he has not been in contention much so perhaps we need to wait and see if he can contend again somewhere other than Augusta to determine whether the old killer personality returns.

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, Greg_B said:

 

I would disagree. He hit rock bottom in 2017 with the DUI thanks to his use of tranquilizers and sleep aids, so it had to be all uphill from there. In 2018 he found a way to get around the golf course again and won a silly season event near the end of the year, which caused much cheering from his worshippers, but most recognized it for what it was. It wasn't until he won the Masters in April 2019 that the new Tiger was embraced widely as a changed person and that's when the redemption chatter really took life. I don't buy all of that and suspect a lot of it was carefully crafted by Steiny & co. although clearly his behavior has mellowed out. His play over the last year has meant he has not been in contention much so perhaps we need to wait and see if he can contend again somewhere other than Augusta to determine whether the old killer personality returns.

 

I disagree, that is what the media or girl gossip circle wants you to believe. His rock bottom was when he couldn't play golf or get up out of his chair due to his lower back and thought he was done. Alot of that DUI was a result of his back, he just got done with fusion surgery a couple months prior, Dr.s prescribe those medications to help with pain and to sleep, not to mention he had been in alot of pain for years leading up to this. He also had THC in his system which was probably from an edible or something he used to try helping with pain/sleeping which is pretty popular to try for those in pain nowadays. I don't doubt he abused them that night but again he just got out of fusion back surgery and when you watch the DUI video, he is groaning in pain when they put him in the back of the cop car and he tells them it hurts his back.

 

I'll probably sign up for hbo max and watch it but everytime I'm about to it just doesn't seem that interesting to me. Is it really worth watching? From reviews so far its pretty meh

Edited January 15, 2021 by Redjeep83

[nikeblades00]

I thought I had HBO, apparently have every other premium channel except it. Darn it. 

[capking]

35 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

I disagree, that is what the media or girl gossip circle wants you to believe. His rock bottom was when he couldn't play golf or get up out of his chair due to his lower back and thought he was done. Alot of that DUI was a result of his back, he just got done with fusion surgery a couple months prior, Dr.s prescribe those medications to help with pain and to sleep, not to mention he had been in alot of pain for years leading up to this. He also had THC in his system which was probably from an edible or something he used to try helping with pain/sleeping which is pretty popular to try for those in pain nowadays. I don't doubt he abused them that night but again he just got out of fusion back surgery and when you watch the DUI video, he is groaning in pain when they put him in the back of the cop car and he tells them it hurts his back.

 

I'll probably sign up for hbo max and watch it but everytime I'm about to it just doesn't seem that interesting to me. Is it really worth watching? From reviews so far its pretty meh

I wouldn’t get hbo specifically for it, it’s not ground breaking or anything. I didn’t know much about Tiger’s  rise to stardom so it was lots of new stuff for me. Plus some funny tidbits about Earl and the ladies, including a motor home at the driving range lol.

Edited January 15, 2021 by capking

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, Greg_B said:

 

I would disagree. He hit rock bottom in 2017 with the DUI thanks to his use of tranquilizers and sleep aids, so it had to be all uphill from there. In 2018 he found a way to get around the golf course again and won a silly season event near the end of the year, which caused much cheering from his worshippers, but most recognized it for what it was. It wasn't until he won the Masters in April 2019 that the new Tiger was embraced widely as a changed person and that's when the redemption chatter really took life. I don't buy all of that and suspect a lot of it was carefully crafted by Steiny & co. although clearly his behavior has mellowed out. His play over the last year has meant he has not been in contention much so perhaps we need to wait and see if he can contend again somewhere other than Augusta to determine whether the old killer personality returns.

The documentary directors were referencing redemption as far as his personal life. They are saying that TW had nothing to redeem himself for in the eyes of the public since his actions in his personal life are no one’s business but his own family’s. 
 

And the notion that Tiger Woods, an athlete who has provided far more great golf memories and elite performances in his sport than arguably any other athlete in history, would have to redeem himself in the eyes of golf fans or the sporting world 

 

Is totally absurd.

 

 

 

 

The only person that Tiger had to redeem himself to, as far as golf game,

 

is himself. 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by bscinstnct

[bigred90gt]

I watched it last night. I must say, I found it quite interesting for a few reasons that dont necessarily need elaboration. For those that have not seen it but are calling it a hit piece, you could not be further from the truth. If you actually watched it, you would not say that. I imagine those long time family friends that were interviewed are no longer family friends, given how Tiger likes to try and keep private matters private.

 

Regarding Charlie, I would say Tiger did a pretty good job of keeping him out of the media spotlight during the PNC. He played golf with his kid, then when it came time for media obligations, the kid was nowhere around. I believe he even said that in one of the interviews, that he had no intention of getting Charlie involved in that part of it, he was just enjoying playing golf with his kid.

 

After watching that, I'm hoping (for the kids sake) that he takes a completely different approach than his parents took with him. While their approach undeniably worked at creating one of, if not the, best golfers to ever play the game, it seems to have done him no favors from a social interaction standpoint. Hopefully he stays true to what he said in that as long as the kids are interested in golf they will play golf, but if they lose interest and want to pursue other interests, that he will support that when the time comes. It seems Earl said the same, but acted otherwise.

[Jordan J. Caron]

I really enjoyed it. A few friend were slagging it but I had an open mind.

 

I never really remembered how Earl had greater plans for Tiger outside of golf to be this bit political figure to bring tribes/races together. It's kind of foolish to have those thoughts but Earl thought he was gifted this incredible being that was insanely talented at golf but also going to be a world leader. Talk about far too much pressure and Tiger didn't see that. 

 

A few things that stand out to me.

 

1 - I loved hearing from his high school girlfriend. I don't remember anything about her as I didn't care about his personal life. The home videos her family had are amazing and that footage of Tiger playing the air sax made me smile so deeply! The kid just wanted to let go and he couldn't do that at home. The note (I've heard it's published online but I've never seen it) he sent her is pretty messed up but you could tell it was basically written by his parents. Maybe that was the start of Tiger turning into somewhat of a robot as she mentions.

 

2 - Did anyone else catch and feel uncomfortable watching the one home video clip of Earl trying to console Tiger at a young age on the bench? Tiger had his head down and was visibly upset trying to get away from Earl and Earl grabs at him 3 times and pulls him and and puts one of his hands over top of his junk. I'm not a parent but I've been pretty careful of where I place my hands when touching/hugging my niece and nephew. A couple other friends noticed it too.

 

3 - Stevie is right that Tiger she be commended for how we handled the constant pressure of people wanting his attention. All other athletes don't have to face that much interaction with the public as golf is 5-7 days and 6-8 hours a day of dealing with people and the media. Sure while he's inside the ropes he's not having to deal with that but he's dealing with the pressure of the course. So this makes sense when the friend was talking about Tiger really getting into scuba diving just to get away from it all.

 

This doc to me is a reminder of the outside s*** people who are great at what they do have to face on their path. Many people are not cut out to handle this outside s***. Tiger, Kobe, LBJ all embraced as part of greatness.

 

4 - The Navy Course pro was great and I didn't know anything about him. He was right, it was such a dumb move to flaunt him and Earl cheating on their wives in front of Tiger.

 

5 - What does family friend Pete McDaniel have but doesn't want to talk about? 

 

6 - I'm making an assumption here but I think Tiger's adultery started after Earl passed away. It could have been a coping mechanism to deal with the loss of Earl but also because the father figure was gone and he could do whatever he wanted. Again an assumption but I lost my rather at 22 and become addicted to sports gambling as a way to cope with the pain of losing my father and to watch sports as that's what we did a lot of our time together. 

 

7 - I think Tiger keeping his children's live private is a way of basically saying he wasn't fond of how he was in the media spotlight from such an early age and that he doesn't want Charlie or Sam to have to deal with what he did. 

 

8 - That '97 Masters was such an impressive win. He had to learn how to block out all the pressure and play with massive galleries. Obviously struggled on the front nine and calmed down and turned it into overdrive and blasted the field. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Jordan J. Caron

[Titleist 670]

1 hour ago, Jordan J. Caron said:

6 - I'm making an assumption here but I think Tiger's adultery started after Earl passed away. It could have been a coping mechanism to deal with the loss of Earl but also because the father figure was gone and he could do whatever he wanted. Again an assumption but I lost my rather at 22 and become addicted to sports gambling as a way to cope with the pain of losing my father and to watch sports as that's what we did a lot of our time together.

I won't link articles, but one of his mistresses said Tiger was with her the day Earl passed away.  It's a common thought (and probably wishful thinking) that Earl's death turned Tiger into a womanizer to cope, but I find that hard to believe.

 

His cheating scandal was fascinating, but I'd wager the overwhelming majority of successful professional athletes cheat on their spouses, so it's not earth-shattering in that regard.  It was more that he projected the family-man vibe to an extent and then was exposed as being the complete opposite.  But that happens to a lot of people.

 

The fact that Tiger could ever have any type of normal relationship with anyone as an adult given the pressure he was under growing up would be a small miracle.  That's why it was really neat to see some of those old home videos his high school girlfriend had - it showed more or less completely normal kid at that age, if even for a moment.  Even though Tiger is much different now than he was in the early 2000's, he still definitely has a bit of a robotic/standoffish vibe to him that I'm sure has developed from the decades of media attention and scrutiny.

[Holy Moses]

Johnny Wunder has a really good podcast and probably my favorite on the Golf WRX platform, but I was a little shocked at how angry he was at the documentary. I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I read the book on which it is based. I never got the impression that the book stated that Earl was the worst father ever and that Tiger was the second worst father ever even though they criticized them pretty harshly. 

[MK7Golf21]

9 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

I watched it last night. I must say, I found it quite interesting for a few reasons that dont necessarily need elaboration. For those that have not seen it but are calling it a hit piece, you could not be further from the truth. If you actually watched it, you would not say that. I imagine those long time family friends that were interviewed are no longer family friends, given how Tiger likes to try and keep private matters private.

 

Regarding Charlie, I would say Tiger did a pretty good job of keeping him out of the media spotlight during the PNC. He played golf with his kid, then when it came time for media obligations, the kid was nowhere around. I believe he even said that in one of the interviews, that he had no intention of getting Charlie involved in that part of it, he was just enjoying playing golf with his kid.

 

After watching that, I'm hoping (for the kids sake) that he takes a completely different approach than his parents took with him. While their approach undeniably worked at creating one of, if not the, best golfers to ever play the game, it seems to have done him no favors from a social interaction standpoint. Hopefully he stays true to what he said in that as long as the kids are interested in golf they will play golf, but if they lose interest and want to pursue other interests, that he will support that when the time comes. It seems Earl said the same, but acted otherwise.

I watched it tonight and I think there is definitely a hit piece tone to it at times, I mean the documentary starts with his father speaking in the background about how great Tiger was going to be while they show a video clip of him in handcuffs for the DUI. That’s the opening scene, 😂.

 

they do paint the picture of how being a superstar the likes that only a certain few have attained (Jordan, Tiger etc) and the fame/attention that come with it but they portray Tiger as someone who wasn’’t ready for it when truth be told, he handles it better than 99.9 percent of the human population would.

 

It teeter totters between a hit piece and showing clips of Tiger beating everyone on the course. However, there are some good parts that are pretty interesting and information that I didn’t know. I think part 2 will definitely have a hit piece tone, they preview pt2 by showing Rachel uchitel’s face and her saying “now what did you want me to talk about” lol

[bigred90gt]

16 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

I watched it tonight and I think there is definitely a hit piece tone to it at times, I mean the documentary starts with his father speaking in the background about how great Tiger was going to be while they show a video clip of him in handcuffs for the DUI. That’s the opening scene, 😂.

 

they do paint the picture of how being a superstar the likes that only a certain few have attained (Jordan, Tiger etc) and the fame/attention that come with it but they portray Tiger as someone who wasn’’t ready for it when truth be told, he handles it better than 99.9 percent of the human population would.

 

It teeter totters between a hit piece and showing clips of Tiger beating everyone on the course. However, there are some good parts that are pretty interesting and information that I didn’t know. I think part 2 will definitely have a hit piece tone, they preview pt2 by showing Rachel uchitel’s face and her saying “now what did you want me to talk about” lol

Part 2 seems like it’s definitely going to be tabloid trash hit piece. Not gonna lie though, I’ll watch it, lol

[capking]

2 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

Part 2 seems like it’s definitely going to be tabloid trash hit piece. Not gonna lie though, I’ll watch it, lol

I look forward to reading people’s hate on part 2 without them watching it.

[Greg_B]

22 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

The documentary directors were referencing redemption as far as his personal life. They are saying that TW had nothing to redeem himself for in the eyes of the public since his actions in his personal life are no one’s business but his own family’s. 
 

And the notion that Tiger Woods, an athlete who has provided far more great golf memories and elite performances in his sport than arguably any other athlete in history, would have to redeem himself in the eyes of golf fans or the sporting world 

 

Is totally absurd.

 

 

 

 

The only person that Tiger had to redeem himself to, as far as golf game,

 

is himself. 

 

 

We're never going to agree on this.

 

Looking at Tiger from an overall perspective, he needed redemption on many levels. Even when he was performing at his peak, while all his fellow tour pros were in awe of his game, many did not like him simply because of his behavior both on and off the course. That killer instinct Earl instilled in him made him treat people poorly and behave in an obnoxious manner. It was totally opposite to the image his handlers and golf media cultivated. That now seems to have been tempered, thankfully.

 

As for the concept that his personal life off the course is nobody's business, some might want to think that is theoretically true, but in today's world it is a fantasy. You cannot keep transgressions private for very long, and a sham marriage where kids are involved is always eventually going to come back and bite you. Again, thankfully, that now seems to have evolved and is in a better place.

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Off course conduct DOES MATTER when you accept money from sponsors to endorse their products, especially products that have nothing to do with golf. You have an image to uphold.   Tiger failed that image in spectacular fashion.  

 

[bscinstnct]

5 hours ago, Greg_B said:

 

We're never going to agree on this.

 

Looking at Tiger from an overall perspective, he needed redemption on many levels. Even when he was performing at his peak, while all his fellow tour pros were in awe of his game, many did not like him simply because of his behavior both on and off the course. That killer instinct Earl instilled in him made him treat people poorly and behave in an obnoxious manner. It was totally opposite to the image his handlers and golf media cultivated. That now seems to have been tempered, thankfully.

 

As for the concept that his personal life off the course is nobody's business, some might want to think that is theoretically true, but in today's world it is a fantasy. You cannot keep transgressions private for very long, and a sham marriage where kids are involved is always eventually going to come back and bite you. Again, thankfully, that now seems to have evolved and is in a better place.

 

An athlete doesn’t need to be liked by their competitors.

 

Look at Hogan. Did he need “redemption”?

He totally abused Arnold Palmer to his face in public.

 

And, on the course, Tiger never hid behind any “cultivated image”.

 

He was terse with the media, often ignored the fans completely, and dropped F-bombs like crazy.

 

But the fans loved him nonetheless. 
 

Why?

 

Becsuse he gave them a show and memories that nobody else could come close to delivering.

 

Even post scandal, even when he was playing poorly, the fans always supported him

 

2012 Open Championship...

 

 

[aenemated]

Finally got around to watching it and really, I think it paints a very sympathetic picture. Really didn't get the vibe of a "hit piece" at all.

 

If anything, it made me feel sorry for him.

[bigred90gt]

On 1/16/2021 at 12:11 AM, capking said:

I look forward to reading people’s hate on part 2 without them watching it.

I’m gonna watch it. I’ll give an honest objective review. 

[Greg_B]

19 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

An athlete doesn’t need to be liked by their competitors.

 

Look at Hogan. Did he need “redemption”?

He totally abused Arnold Palmer to his face in public.

 

And, on the course, Tiger never hid behind any “cultivated image”.

 

He was terse with the media, often ignored the fans completely, and dropped F-bombs like crazy.

 

But the fans loved him nonetheless. 
 

Why?

 

Becsuse he gave them a show and memories that nobody else could come close to delivering.

 

Even post scandal, even when he was playing poorly, the fans always supported him

 

2012 Open Championship...

 

 

 

Hogan and Woods are really not comparable. Although both had childhood traumas that caused them to be the way they were as adults. Ben did not typically try to promote himself as a good guy while being a SOB the way Woods did in his prime years, and did not live a personal life totally at odds with his public image.

 

As for the fans, what can I say? The Tiger worshipers are a special breed of fanatic. Which rhymes with lunatic (well not really, but you get the point). 😉

[Soloman1]

On 1/14/2021 at 11:35 AM, QuigleyDU said:

Seriously bad dresser.. haha.

 

they should make a doc about it.

 

 

Ralph Lauren just had a sponsorship slot open up . . .

[capking]

6 hours ago, bigred90gt said:

I’m gonna watch it. I’ll give an honest objective review. 

Didn’t mean you specifically, half this thread is people defending Tiger without watching